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HK1837 Offline
#41 Posted : Tuesday, 18 October 2016 4:30:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ExportHolden Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
It's not Oyster is it?



Yep, Oyster it is. Finally dug out the WB parts manual and that's what 63T is.

Also saw a WB Series II Statesman brochure on eBay where the seller kindly took good pics of each page and the bench is listed as an option, but available with Oyster interior only. Explains why the 2 other bench-seat WB Statos I've seen on the web were also Oyster.

Wondering why there was never a WB commercials Series II. Probably they were selling well enough that Holden didn't need to spruce them up with a SII version.


There was effectively a few different Series within WB commercials that followed paints and trim in Commodore, it just never got called SeriesII or III. No different to HQ or HJ or LH where the colours and trim changed dramatically across boundaries driven by other Series, for example LH changed radically at HJ introduction - a post HJ LH is as different to an earlier LH as an LX is to an LH. Same with HJ changes at LX Torana introduction in paint and trim.

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Dr Terry Offline
#42 Posted : Wednesday, 19 October 2016 6:46:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post

There was effectively a few different Series within WB commercials that followed paints and trim in Commodore, it just never got called SeriesII or III. No different to HQ or HJ or LH where the colours and trim changed dramatically across boundaries driven by other Series, for example LH changed radically at HJ introduction - a post HJ LH is as different to an earlier LH as an LX is to an LH. Same with HJ changes at LX Torana introduction in paint and trim.



I think referring to cars as being Series I, Series II or whatever based on a change to the paint colour range (or other minor changes) is a bit over the top.

In most model series, GM-H changed the colour palette quite often, usually more than just annually.

In the FB-HR era, they issued new colour charts up to 3 times in each series. In EH for example there was one chart issued at release (Aug 63) & then another at the February '64 update & again in Sept that year. At that Feb update there were many alterations & additions to the model/option list as well as the new colour chart, but you don't hear people referring to EHs as Series I or II. Well not yet anyway.

This trend is emerging in 1980s Commodores too. How often do you hear guys talking about a VL Series II Commodore ?

Another favourite of mine is the Series I & Series 2 HK Monaro GTS 327. I suppose you have the Type 1 & Type 2 327 engines, but what then do you call a 1969 Ermine White 327 ? Is that a Series 3 ?

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HK1837 Offline
#43 Posted : Wednesday, 19 October 2016 7:40:31 AM(UTC)
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I agree Terry that calling them a SeriesII, III etc is silly, but GMH did it with the WB Statesman and in reality the change between them is really no more dramatic than the change in WB commercials with changes in Commodore series or in earlier stuff like I mentioned. Changes in colour charts across Series happens heaps like you say, but when you look closely many changes are associated either with the introduction of another car line (like when HJ updates available paint when LX released) or when TA is replaced by Gemini in HQ era. Sometimes it is an error like colour chart A626 where they forgot to put Torana on the back. The changes made to HJ in early 1976 in alignment with LX to me are far more dramatic than what changed during WB, but there is no mention of a "seriesII" just like there was none in WB commercials when similar changes occurred.

Not sure where the whole series1 and 2 HK comes from, has to be just people putting 2 and 2 together and getting 7. As you say if an Ermine white GTS327 is a Series III because it is Ermine white, what do you call a special order August 1968 Ermine White GTS327? Also what do you call the GTS327's built prior to GMH's published breakpoints for type 2 engines that are fitted with the lower compression Canadian engine but don't have all the published type 2 engine parts? We might have to adopt the Ford brigade's GT-HO Phase 1.5 moniker and call it a Type 1 3/4!
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ExportHolden Offline
#44 Posted : Wednesday, 19 October 2016 9:31:59 AM(UTC)
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Going through a photo archive recently, I discovered a pic of a VC Commodore. In the sans-serif font used at the time for advertising, the number plate proclaimed it as 'Commodore II'.

The VC wasn't a series II as such, but interesting Holden chose to give it that description at the time.
Dr Terry Offline
#45 Posted : Wednesday, 19 October 2016 11:37:29 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I agree Terry that calling them a SeriesII, III etc is silly, but GMH did it with the WB Statesman and in reality the change between them is really no more dramatic than the change in WB commercials with changes in Commodore series or in earlier stuff like I mentioned. Changes in colour charts across Series happens heaps like you say, but when you look closely many changes are associated either with the introduction of another car line (like when HJ updates available paint when LX released) or when TA is replaced by Gemini in HQ era. Sometimes it is an error like colour chart A626 where they forgot to put Torana on the back. The changes made to HJ in early 1976 in alignment with LX to me are far more dramatic than what changed during WB, but there is no mention of a "seriesII" just like there was none in WB commercials when similar changes occurred.

Not sure where the whole series1 and 2 HK comes from, has to be just people putting 2 and 2 together and getting 7. As you say if an Ermine white GTS327 is a Series III because it is Ermine white, what do you call a special order August 1968 Ermine White GTS327? Also what do you call the GTS327's built prior to GMH's published breakpoints for type 2 engines that are fitted with the lower compression Canadian engine but don't have all the published type 2 engine parts? We might have to adopt the Ford brigade's GT-HO Phase 1.5 moniker and call it a Type 1 3/4!


I disagree that the Series II WB Statesman had changes no more dramatic than the con-current WB commercials.

The Series II WB Statesman was the first time that GM-H had used a Series II badge (if you don't count Vacationer II) & there were many additions & changes, so much so that they issued a workshop manual supplement. Virtually all badges were changed in font & position, dash facia finishes & seat trim designs were new, paint colours & tail-light trim changed. They added a trip computer & electric mirrors the list goes on & on.

About the only noticeable items on the commercials to be changed at that time were the colour chart changes & the addition of Oyster & Light Oyster seat trim vinyl. There were also other minor changes at other times in the model rum, but nothing to warrant a Series II tag.

The other car that comes to mind is HB Torana. I believe it was me that coined the Series 2 name in my first book in 1998. 'Prior to that GM-H just called their later version (which had many quite significant changes) the 1969 model.

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HK1837 Offline
#46 Posted : Wednesday, 19 October 2016 12:53:33 PM(UTC)
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Maybe the comparison to WB commercial isn't a good one as many big changes happened along the way not all at once, but what about HJ? New paint, new trims, 3.3L and disc brakes became all but standard, outside fleet/special order, intermittent wipers pretty much standard fare with V8 (not with L32 M15) and with L20 M40, plus very much packaged options across the board with quick spec ordering. This all happened early in 1976 in alignment with LX release. This sort of stuff is very much like a "SeriesII" in many ways.
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Dr Terry Offline
#47 Posted : Wednesday, 19 October 2016 2:20:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Maybe the comparison to WB commercial isn't a good one as many big changes happened along the way not all at once, but what about HJ? New paint, new trims, 3.3L and disc brakes became all but standard, outside fleet/special order, intermittent wipers pretty much standard fare with V8 (not with L32 M15) and with L20 M40, plus very much packaged options across the board with quick spec ordering. This all happened early in 1976 in alignment with LX release. This sort of stuff is very much like a "SeriesII" in many ways.


Yeah, but I think to be a Series 2 anything it has to have changes or additions, not just a re-alignment of optional equipment.

I think that the Feb '73 HQ is arguably more significant than the HJ '76 thing.

Look at the changes.

Paint chart (as discussed)
Total interior trim re-design including seat trims & materials, new cushioning
Fixed buckets deleted new recliner mechanisms for reclining bucket seats
Addition & deletion of models GTS 4-door (x2) intro & Statesmen Custom gone
Increased base equipment - first standard radios etc.
Addition of bonnet & boot paint-outs for GTS
Changed badging for GTS350
202 badge changed colour
amber front blinkers
updated suspension, springs raised etc.
disc std for Premier
electric tailgate std for Premier wagon
V8 One-Tonner intro

Dr Terry
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HK1837 Offline
#48 Posted : Wednesday, 19 October 2016 3:37:36 PM(UTC)
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Definitely, HQ is even more obvious, primarily as it had to be as there was supposed to be an actual facelift and series change for 1973. Don't forget also HJ at the same time I was mentioning lost coupes and XX7 option on Holden ute.
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#49 Posted : Thursday, 20 October 2016 10:00:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post

Look at the changes.

Paint chart (as discussed)
Total interior trim re-design including seat trims & materials, new cushioning
Fixed buckets deleted new recliner mechanisms for reclining bucket seats
Addition & deletion of models GTS 4-door (x2) intro & Statesmen Custom gone
Increased base equipment - first standard radios etc.
Addition of bonnet & boot paint-outs for GTS
Changed badging for GTS350
202 badge changed colour
amber front blinkers
updated suspension, springs raised etc.
disc std for Premier
electric tailgate std for Premier wagon
V8 One-Tonner intro

Dr Terry


Doc, Statesman Custom didn't get canned in Feb 73 I have them recorded up to April 74, did they go to special order only?

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Dr Terry Offline
#50 Posted : Friday, 21 October 2016 6:09:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mr.Jones Go to Quoted Post


Doc, Statesman Custom didn't get canned in Feb 73 I have them recorded up to April 74, did they go to special order only?



That's correct Mr.Jones, they removed the HQ Statesman Custom from regular production in early 1973 & made it available on special order only.

Most Customs out there are from 1971/72 production.

Dr Terry
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 1 user thanked Dr Terry for this useful post.
Mr.Jones on 21/10/2016(UTC)
HK1837 Offline
#51 Posted : Friday, 21 October 2016 6:51:36 AM(UTC)
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When did the 6cyl Statesman go from normal production to retail order?
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Mr.Jones Offline
#52 Posted : Friday, 21 October 2016 9:46:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mr.Jones Go to Quoted Post


Doc, Statesman Custom didn't get canned in Feb 73 I have them recorded up to April 74, did they go to special order only?



That's correct Mr.Jones, they removed the HQ Statesman Custom from regular production in early 1973 & made it available on special order only.

Most Customs out there are from 1971/72 production.

Dr Terry


Thanks always learn something new when you're around :)

"Planet earth is the asylum to which the rest of the universe sends it's lunatics"
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