Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Login


Take the time to read our Privacy Policy.

2 Pages<12
HK1837 Offline
#21 Posted : Thursday, 12 October 2017 6:16:52 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,808

Was thanked: 72 time(s) in 70 post(s)
A “battery” doesn’t have to be electrolyte and metals. It can be conversion of water into H2 and O and combination again to create steam for a turbine. There is also use of Natural gas as a storage media for energy, CSIRO in Steel River has a pilot setup. Also Google Hydrogenics.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
KBM Offline
#22 Posted : Thursday, 12 October 2017 7:03:23 PM(UTC)
KBM

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 21/04/2017(UTC)
Posts: 100
Australia
Location: Tolmie

Thanks: 1 times
you're talking about wasting the power you generate to pump water up a hill to generate more power? It's like building a water wheel above a dam to pump water up to feed the water wheel.total waste of resource, and a lot of maintenance. Doesn't tidal current already do that and aren't we surrounded by the easiest, and when set up, cheapest, most reliable power generating source available on earth.
HK1837 Offline
#23 Posted : Thursday, 12 October 2017 7:12:19 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,808

Was thanked: 72 time(s) in 70 post(s)
It isn’t a waste at all, it is a battery. You use excess energy in off peak times or in times of peak solar generation to pump the water up and let it generate when peak load hits. Identical concept to home battery systems like a Tesla, you use both solar and off-peak power to charge the batteries and draw from them in times of peak load and hence peak prices.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
wbute Offline
#24 Posted : Thursday, 12 October 2017 7:13:27 PM(UTC)
wbute

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 719

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
No KBM, well yes it is unproductive in that regard. But it's no different to the Snowy scheme pumping water back up to use the excess power from off peak generation.
You use the excess generated during the day (assuming solar or wind ever gets to the stage of excess generation) to pump sea water to a storage area. Then at night you let it go to turn a turbine to generate power at night.
Seems logical to me. More logical than trying to actually store the power in a tesla battery. The whole country is surrounded by completely unlimited sea water.
Just read your reply HK. I wasn't having s go at the tesla battery in your post. I was more having a go at SA and their "worlds biggest battery".

Edited by user Thursday, 12 October 2017 7:16:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#25 Posted : Thursday, 12 October 2017 7:52:53 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,808

Was thanked: 72 time(s) in 70 post(s)
In the end we need energy storage and all we currently have is hydro. You need energy to meet the peak demand, and you cannot economically do it with baseload generation as baseload (coal and gas) has to run, if it doesn’t run all the time it is very wasteful and not good for the machinery either. So what you have to do is use excess baseload generation during low use age period to fill the top dams again, identical concept to charging a battery. Solar and win will eventually change this dynamic as there will be excess energy during the middle of the day or when it is windy.
The problem with storage at home like a Tesla is to be really anything like worth it, it has to use off peak grid energy, but if everyone gets a system there won’t be an off peak anymore and thus you have to double your panels and battery size as you only charge the battery once a day (solar) not twice like you can when there is cheap off peak electricity.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
KBM Offline
#26 Posted : Thursday, 12 October 2017 7:59:21 PM(UTC)
KBM

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 21/04/2017(UTC)
Posts: 100
Australia
Location: Tolmie

Thanks: 1 times
when you use "excess energy" on off peak you are still paying for the use of that resource wether you pump water up a hill or store it. I understand you can't turn a hydro plant on or off whenever your demand requires. I remember going to see the snowy power stations as a part of my apprenticeship but if you were to "baffle" the tidal flow through a reversible turbine you could generate power to your needs and tidal flow happens all day every day.
HK1837 Offline
#27 Posted : Thursday, 12 October 2017 8:38:09 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,808

Was thanked: 72 time(s) in 70 post(s)
You can turn hydro on and off, that is the beauty of it. I think you are missing the point, when you have baseload generation you have to run it, it is economical and detrimental to the station. Remember these are steam turbines and the steam is provided by boilers. Boilers take hours to shut down and startup. So at night when demand is lower than what the baseload stations provide it is stupid and uneconomical not to store that excess power. The alternatives are to have either more baseload generation to cover the peak or have rolling blackouts. Exactly the same as when you have battery storage st home, it would be stupid not to also charge the battery using offpeak grid power, alternative is to double your spend on panels and storage. We have been losing coal stations in Australia (like Munmorah and Vales Point) and these will partially be replaced by solar farms, but the difference is they cannot generate in overcast weather. This is a very simplistic explanation, but basically how it works.

Edited by user Thursday, 12 October 2017 8:39:33 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
KBM Offline
#28 Posted : Friday, 13 October 2017 7:15:33 AM(UTC)
KBM

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 21/04/2017(UTC)
Posts: 100
Australia
Location: Tolmie

Thanks: 1 times
I understand exactly how it all works. I'm an ex A grade linesman and currently live in the bush using stand alone solar with generator back up so I've seen how both work their different ways. Solar has its advantages when the sun is out but if your batteries are full you aren't using the power the panels are providing and when your stuck in cloud for three days your generator is working overtime. I have a small homemade hydro on the creek below the house but it only flows after heavy rain or winter but it does help with the "off peak" over night and saves running the generator for a few hours a day as it charges for as long as the creek flows. Tides turn even during drought and will the snowy continue to flow with an ever drying world?
I think we both agree on the principal idea of getting better power storage but differ on how to achieve it.
HK1837 Offline
#29 Posted : Friday, 13 October 2017 7:56:22 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,808

Was thanked: 72 time(s) in 70 post(s)
True, storage is the key with solar. Without it we always have to have coal, gas or nuclear.
Remember they aren’t talking about making the snowy scheme bigger, just making more of it into a big battery, only Tumut 3 is afaik storage capable at the moment.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
wbute Offline
#30 Posted : Saturday, 14 October 2017 11:15:14 AM(UTC)
wbute

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 719

Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
If the Snowy stops flowing you won't care about electricity. There won't be any food. Ever drying world? Is it?
Users browsing this topic
Guest (3)
2 Pages<12
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF | YAF © 2003-2017, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.153 seconds.