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castellan Offline
#21 Posted : Thursday, 8 November 2018 10:22:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Pretty sure any 4BBL full size got a 12 bolt in 1968. The gearbox and diff for any given GM vehicle size was determined by both the torque output of the engine and the size of the vehicle. We saw it here in Australia where the HQ-WB got a 10-bolt for any V8 but the Torana still got a banjo for all V8. Commodore got a 10-bolt for a 5.0L but the 4.2L got a banjo in disguise.

If you step down from full size to Camaro an L30 (275hp 327) got a 12 bolt but still had a Saginaw, but an L48 (300hp 350) or an LM1 (255hp 350) both got a Muncie and a 12-bolt. It is the torque of the engine that dictates the gearbox and diff. GMH followed GM "rules" with the HK GTS327 by fitting a Saginaw and 10-bolt but should have fitted a Muncie and 12-bolt to the HT 350 manual, auto 350 should probably have got a 10-bolt although some Camaro with the LM1 and Powerglide (or TH350) seem to get a mix of 10 and 12 bolt.

I also just checked the specs for a 1968 GMH assembled Parisienne - they were a 3.55:1. I assume the Impala was the same.


Aussie had 3.55 Ratio Impalas but 15in wheels I believe.
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#22 Posted : Thursday, 8 November 2018 1:17:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Pretty sure any 4BBL full size got a 12 bolt in 1968. The gearbox and diff for any given GM vehicle size was determined by both the torque output of the engine and the size of the vehicle. We saw it here in Australia where the HQ-WB got a 10-bolt for any V8 but the Torana still got a banjo for all V8. Commodore got a 10-bolt for a 5.0L but the 4.2L got a banjo in disguise.

If you step down from full size to Camaro an L30 (275hp 327) got a 12 bolt but still had a Saginaw, but an L48 (300hp 350) or an LM1 (255hp 350) both got a Muncie and a 12-bolt. It is the torque of the engine that dictates the gearbox and diff. GMH followed GM "rules" with the HK GTS327 by fitting a Saginaw and 10-bolt but should have fitted a Muncie and 12-bolt to the HT 350 manual, auto 350 should probably have got a 10-bolt although some Camaro with the LM1 and Powerglide (or TH350) seem to get a mix of 10 and 12 bolt.

I also just checked the specs for a 1968 GMH assembled Parisienne - they were a 3.55:1. I assume the Impala was the same.


Aussie had 3.55 Ratio Impalas but 15in wheels I believe.


Correct, I think they were 8.15 x 15 cross-plies.

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#23 Posted : Thursday, 8 November 2018 1:52:24 PM(UTC)
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I had the ‘67 Impala with 8.15x15 4ply tubeless triple band whitewalls but didn’t have the same specs for ‘68.

8.15x15 is 703.1mm diameter.
A D70x14 is 645.12mm.
So this gears the boats up just about 9% compared to the Holden with the D70x14.
So 3.55 with the 15’s is equivalent to about 3.25 gears with D70x14.
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#24 Posted : Friday, 9 November 2018 3:17:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I had the ‘67 Impala with 8.15x15 4ply tubeless triple band whitewalls but didn’t have the same specs for ‘68.

8.15x15 is 703.1mm diameter.
A D70x14 is 645.12mm.
So this gears the boats up just about 9% compared to the Holden with the D70x14.
So 3.55 with the 15’s is equivalent to about 3.25 gears with D70x14.


8.15 x 15in tyres for 1967-8 Impala and Pontiac from the brochure.

1966 and before are 7.50 x 14 and 3.55 diff.

Factory Air-con only on 1968 it says nought about such in 1967.

Why the 327 starts from 230hp in 1966, 240hp in 1967 and 250hp in 1968.
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#25 Posted : Friday, 9 November 2018 4:05:11 PM(UTC)
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1966 230hp was 8.5:1 and a Rochester 4GC.
1967 240hp same engine but with upgraded manifold and Rochester 4MV Quadrajet.
1968 250hp compression up to 9:1.

Official figures don't show some of these compressions but that is what they are. The increase in 0.5:1 between 1967 and 1968 is the only change apart from the PCV valve move and the temperature sender move.

The 1967 240hp 4BBL 327 was a special order (COPO) only in the USA and is not well documented. None of its specs appear even in the Engineering Technical Specifications but there is a dyno curve for it in the GM Technical archives for 1967 Chevrolet. The peak power and torque match the specs in the GMH 1967 Sales Brochure for Impala and Parisienne. All it is though is a 327 210hp Camaro engine with the 275hp 327's intake and carby.

Edited by user Friday, 9 November 2018 4:11:58 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#26 Posted : Saturday, 10 November 2018 11:30:02 AM(UTC)
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Looking back in the days them Ford Galixies were just so much better car than GMH could offer.
A mate owned a 1967 Impala and another mate owned a 1968 Impala.

But look at what you could get from 1960 on, it's Ford Galaxie all the way that was the better car.

Look at the greatness of the 1965 Galaxie vs a XP Falcon there is no question that the gal is much more advanced better car, sure the ZA Fairlane was good in 1967 but it only had rear leaf springs. look at the HD what a bucket of and the GMH Impala and Pontiac with 2 speed auto and only the little 327 V8. when the Gal got option of the big 390 V8 with 3 sp auto.

The only thing that makes the Impala and Pontiac worthy is the 4 door Hardtops. now a USA type with big blocks and there advanced dash etc would of been something but what we got was nothing near as good.

Maybe we need a good old Holden and Ford debate. ha ha I love them.
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#27 Posted : Saturday, 10 November 2018 1:00:29 PM(UTC)
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The stuff GMH sold was never of the same performance level that they got in the USA. They weren't even the same cars, they were Canadian versions. A 390 Galaxie wouldn't hold a candle to a 396 L78 powered 1965 Chevrolet though, these were weapons in a straight line 425hp, big mechanical cam, Holley and they ran a TH400. Even the 428 Galaxie wouldn't match one of those. The 425hp L72 427 in 1966 even quicker again. You'd want one of the older 425hp 427 Galaxies from '63-'64 to make it a fair fight, they were awesome engines. But a 1963 Z11 427 Mark1 BBC with its 435hp and 13.5:1 compression would do better again.

I always loved this old commercial of a 409 Mark1 BBC '63 Imapala vs a 406 '63 Galaxie, they had to use a 360hp fuel injected 327 Corvette as a camera car to keep in front of them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gvJW6eOWUY

We never had the fuel here for the really high performance GM engines though, the L78 and L72 were both 11:1, we never had fuel here to run those in 1965-66.
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#28 Posted : Saturday, 10 November 2018 4:32:23 PM(UTC)
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Here is some more on that beautiful 1963 Mark1 427 engined Impala. An important name (Bill Mitchell) also crops up in the article that was important in the scheme of the development of our own Muscle Car, the GTS327.

https://www.streetmuscle...hevrolet-z11-impala-427/

And more on another special early 60's Super Car. The name mentioned here will be important to you Castellan - Bunkie Knudsen. He is the sole reason behind the engine in the car that is most important in Australia to Ford fans - the Cleveland. He essentially copied the MarkIV Chevy Big Block heads when he left GM to head to Ford in the later 60's, and took a few Engineers with him. They developed the Cleveland engine.

https://www.streetmuscle...atalina-lightweight-421/

Edited by user Saturday, 10 November 2018 4:52:00 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#29 Posted : Sunday, 11 November 2018 12:13:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Here is some more on that beautiful 1963 Mark1 427 engined Impala. An important name (Bill Mitchell) also crops up in the article that was important in the scheme of the development of our own Muscle Car, the GTS327.

https://www.streetmuscle...hevrolet-z11-impala-427/

And more on another special early 60's Super Car. The name mentioned here will be important to you Castellan - Bunkie Knudsen. He is the sole reason behind the engine in the car that is most important in Australia to Ford fans - the Cleveland. He essentially copied the MarkIV Chevy Big Block heads when he left GM to head to Ford in the later 60's, and took a few Engineers with him. They developed the Cleveland engine.

https://www.streetmuscle...atalina-lightweight-421/


I am not into power so much but just what they were, you know if only the Impala Pontiac came with 3sp auto when they came out in the USA and a big block option and all the advancements of the USA had.

I have a uncle who was involved with the V8 Cleveland and he came to Australia some years back, I was going to see him but I had the wog real bad, he rang and I talked to him on the phone. He was born in Denmark and has changed his name a few times.
The time before that he came to Australia he was leading the testing of USA cars here but the Government really rubbed them up the wrong way and he was furious about it all, I think it was when MP Keating was trying his best to destroy Australia.

As for cars I am not into anything made before the 1960's really much at all.
MK III Zodiac 4sp full sync with disc not bad for it's time in Australia and a 3sp auto I think it was.
I hate Holden's before the EH they were just rubbish, but we had to wait for 1974 till you could get a big 179 manual for anything that could resemble something of power haha ! oh the Falcon had the big 170 in the last few months of the XK and then the XL Superbird what a rocket ship not to mention the Valiant RV1 drool.
But the 1965 Galaxie was a start of real fine car back in the day.

Talking to a dude who said he owned the latest super Pursuit ute, I said yes we had them back in 1964 the 170 Super pursuit, I remember old dudes standing back in the pub with there hands on their hips boasting of that and everyone in awe.
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#30 Posted : Sunday, 11 November 2018 1:01:19 PM(UTC)
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Not much in the USA in those earlier 60's in GM Chevrolet got a TH400, only the really high power engines. The rest got Powerglides until the TH350 started to appear very late in the 60's. GMH always had the bigger Chevrolets alongside the Holden, and until the dawn of the 60's they were only 6cyl here. My old 'Pagewood built '57 Chevy only had 60,000 miles on it when I bought it in the 90's and it ran rings around a 1957 Holden in how it drove. It was dead stock original apart from radial tyres. My only criticism is with the non synchro first gear - it was a pain sometimes. Would have been a far better car though with a 283 4BBL engine and a Powerglide, but we never had that option here. GMH didn't stop building and selling the big boats until they got the HQ Statesman. GMH would never had sold a BBC car here in the 60's though.

I'm not into older GMH vehicles, I'm not interested in anything without a V8, although I do have some interest in HD-HR as they are basically the same car as a HK when you pull them apart and see how they were built. I wouldn't call the older Holdens rubbish though, they served their purpose well and outlasted and outsold any other product imported. When you really research the monumental effort and logistical undertaking it took in the 1940's right up until even the 1970's that it took to build mass produced vehicles totally from scratch in Australia that not only would sell, but were durable enough to survive on Australian roads in the 50's, you really start to appreciate it. Remember GMH not only built the cars, but built them across 5 local assembly plants in a Country approx. as big as the North American continent with only a fraction of the population. Plus assembled the cars as far away as Trinidad and South Africa, plus exported to Asia and Europe plus all over the Pacific. The cars can't have been that unfit for purpose! They were utilitarian though, not performance cars.
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#31 Posted : Monday, 12 November 2018 12:31:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Not much in the USA in those earlier 60's in GM Chevrolet got a TH400, only the really high power engines. The rest got Powerglides until the TH350 started to appear very late in the 60's. GMH always had the bigger Chevrolets alongside the Holden, and until the dawn of the 60's they were only 6cyl here. My old 'Pagewood built '57 Chevy only had 60,000 miles on it when I bought it in the 90's and it ran rings around a 1957 Holden in how it drove. It was dead stock original apart from radial tyres. My only criticism is with the non synchro first gear - it was a pain sometimes. Would have been a far better car though with a 283 4BBL engine and a Powerglide, but we never had that option here. GMH didn't stop building and selling the big boats until they got the HQ Statesman. GMH would never had sold a BBC car here in the 60's though.

I'm not into older GMH vehicles, I'm not interested in anything without a V8, although I do have some interest in HD-HR as they are basically the same car as a HK when you pull them apart and see how they were built. I wouldn't call the older Holdens rubbish though, they served their purpose well and outlasted and outsold any other product imported. When you really research the monumental effort and logistical undertaking it took in the 1940's right up until even the 1970's that it took to build mass produced vehicles totally from scratch in Australia that not only would sell, but were durable enough to survive on Australian roads in the 50's, you really start to appreciate it. Remember GMH not only built the cars, but built them across 5 local assembly plants in a Country approx. as big as the North American continent with only a fraction of the population. Plus assembled the cars as far away as Trinidad and South Africa, plus exported to Asia and Europe plus all over the Pacific. The cars can't have been that unfit for purpose! They were utilitarian though, not performance cars.


The older Holden's with Grey motors is the reason I have no passion for them, I like to think of back in the days, maybe if you could go back in time, it would be hideous to have to drive that sort of stuff, a EH I could live with 179 and all I could bear it I think, but a HD X2 with disc brakes would be welcomed not to mention the HR 186 S 4sp but then the Holden got class with 307 and GTS327 now I could handle that.
Sure all our V8 Impalas and Pontiac were better than the other Holden's in the day.
The 1967 Impala got 327 and optional T400 auto in Canada, not to mention the 327 in 1968 Impala got 10:1 275hp dual exhaust
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#32 Posted : Monday, 12 November 2018 1:45:32 PM(UTC)
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The old greys aren’t my cup of tea either, but they did their job. They were pretty much outdated by 1963 though.

That L30 327 was available from about 1965 in Impala in the USA and Canada. It wasn’t 275hp until it got the Quadrajet in 1967, before that it was 250hp I think. What is was in essence was flat top pistons, general purpose hydraulic cam, 1.94/1.5 fuelies and 4BBL carb. The L76 was the good engine in Impala in 1964, it was lumpy top forged pistons, solid cam, 2.02/1.6 fuelies and Carter carb. It morphed into the L79 in 1965 which had a higher performance hydraulic cam.
None of these could have powered an Aussie car in 1964-5 though as they were 10:1 to 11:1 engines and our fuel was good for maybe 9.5:1 max.

The GTS327 engine is identical to a 1968 L30 (275hp) other than the heads. The L73 is what we got here, and it was the standard 327 engine in 1968 US Impala (some models had 307 standard). It was also the highest volume V8 in Impala in the USA. The 275hp was optional. Both came with Powerglide if auto optioned but could be had with TH box if desired. Most were 3spd manual standard, even the 396 and 427 versions.

Edited by user Monday, 12 November 2018 2:03:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#33 Posted : Monday, 12 November 2018 2:33:11 PM(UTC)
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Non sync 1st gear 3 speed box rubbish, I hated old blokes when they would come around a corner and plod plod plod out in 2ed gear, a mates old man did this in a VG Pacer just out of habit, she has sync 1st gear and another mates grand dad had a 4sp 173 VH Commodore and he took off in 2ed ha ha ! he claimed that 1st was extra low, my mate and I laughed about that he had been driving tractors for too long, he was about 90yo back then.
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#34 Posted : Monday, 12 November 2018 3:34:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
The older Holden's with Grey motors is the reason I have no passion for them, I like to think of back in the days, maybe if you could go back in time, it would be hideous to have to drive that sort of stuff, a EH I could live with 179 and all I could bear it I think, but a HD X2 with disc brakes would be welcomed not to mention the HR 186 S 4sp but then the Holden got class with 307 and GTS327 now I could handle that.
Sure all our V8 Impalas and Pontiac were better than the other Holden's in the day.
The 1967 Impala got 327 and optional T400 auto in Canada, not to mention the 327 in 1968 Impala got 10:1 275hp dual exhaust


I think you are looking at the past thru 'rose-coloured' glasses.

Yes, the old Greys were underpowered & yes, the 50s Holdens weren't that flash, but any other car anywhere near the money was so much worse. That's why they had 50% of the market in the late 50s. Their first 'real' competition was the Falcon & Valiant & that wasn't until the early 60s.

Look at the Aussie car market in the 40s & 50s, the FX's main opposition @ release was the Austin A40 !! The rest of the market was either underpowered Pommy stuff or large (read expensive) American iron. The closest Ford got was arguably the MK2 Zephyr, but it was heavy & again expensive. This made the Ford Aust. management reject it in favour of the XK Falcon, a good decision in hindsight.

Chevs, Pontiacs & Galaxies were over twice the price of a Holden & back then we weren't as affluent as we are today. Radios & heaters were considered 'luxury' items.

The Falcon 170 was no competition for the EH 179 (manual or auto) you needed the 200 'Super Pursuit' to out run the 179. Of course the Valiant 225 could eat both of them for breakfast, but again the Val was expensive. The base Valiant was the same price as an EH Premier & the Holden had a loyal customer base whereas Chrysler had to convince the buying public that the Val was a better proposition to the Royals etc. that was their main sales weapon up until then.

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#35 Posted : Tuesday, 13 November 2018 1:49:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
The older Holden's with Grey motors is the reason I have no passion for them, I like to think of back in the days, maybe if you could go back in time, it would be hideous to have to drive that sort of stuff, a EH I could live with 179 and all I could bear it I think, but a HD X2 with disc brakes would be welcomed not to mention the HR 186 S 4sp but then the Holden got class with 307 and GTS327 now I could handle that.
Sure all our V8 Impalas and Pontiac were better than the other Holden's in the day.
The 1967 Impala got 327 and optional T400 auto in Canada, not to mention the 327 in 1968 Impala got 10:1 275hp dual exhaust


I think you are looking at the past thru 'rose-coloured' glasses.

Yes, the old Greys were underpowered & yes, the 50s Holdens weren't that flash, but any other car anywhere near the money was so much worse. That's why they had 50% of the market in the late 50s. Their first 'real' competition was the Falcon & Valiant & that wasn't until the early 60s.

Look at the Aussie car market in the 40s & 50s, the FX's main opposition @ release was the Austin A40 !! The rest of the market was either underpowered Pommy stuff or large (read expensive) American iron. The closest Ford got was arguably the MK2 Zephyr, but it was heavy & again expensive. This made the Ford Aust. management reject it in favour of the XK Falcon, a good decision in hindsight.

Chevs, Pontiacs & Galaxies were over twice the price of a Holden & back then we weren't as affluent as we are today. Radios & heaters were considered 'luxury' items.

The Falcon 170 was no competition for the EH 179 (manual or auto) you needed the 200 'Super Pursuit' to out run the 179. Of course the Valiant 225 could eat both of them for breakfast, but again the Val was expensive. The base Valiant was the same price as an EH Premier & the Holden had a loyal customer base whereas Chrysler had to convince the buying public that the Val was a better proposition to the Royals etc. that was their main sales weapon up until then.

Dr Terry

I agree with all you said but for the glasses and you could get a big 170 in the last 3 months of the XK and the XL Falcon and it was not until the EH came out with the 179 3sp manual that Holden came back in the power race.

Sure the 149 had to go up against the mighty 170 Falcon for a time but the 179 3sp manual only came out when the XM Falcon came out, even tho the XM 200 only came out with a 2sp auto.
So it's about the power race Holden VS Fords within the average mans reach and the Valiant's being some what more out of reach.

So when Ford brought out the big 170 it was king of the hill in this regard until Holden was a box that was strong enough to put behind the mighty 179.

People back in the day who were weened on Grey motored and then get behind the wheel of the 1st EH with the big 149 manual the power ! and then a 179 oh boy now we are talking power or some bragging rights in the pub. ha ha well until the Valiant man shows up.

MK III Zodiac 4sp full syn box and disc brakes from 1961 to 1963 I believe and they were a good car, my uncle had one and no Falcon or Holden could hold a candle to that until the HR 186S and the XR GT.
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#36 Posted : Wednesday, 14 November 2018 7:56:29 AM(UTC)
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The 179 was a good performer in automatic form as well. The manual was a bit more responsive than the old Hydramatic but 1/4 mile times weren't that much slower. My own low miler EH 149 Auto is a lot quicker than many manual trans cars built in that same era.

Mk III Zephyr release was July 1962, it was an expensive car compared to Holdens & Falcons.

They performed OK as long as you kept the rpm up with the 4-sp box, the 156 ci motor only had 98 bhp, compared to 101 for the Pursuit 170 & 115 bhp for the Red 179. They were also heavier than the Holden & Falcon.

The Zephyr's achilles heel was the McPherson strut front end, too weak for a large car. These weren't perfected until the Volvo 240, P76, Rover SD1 & VB Commodore of the mid to late 70s. They were OK in smaller cars like the Mk I & II Cortina, Escort & Capri.

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#37 Posted : Wednesday, 14 November 2018 8:46:45 PM(UTC)
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I've got nothing to add, but I'm enjoying the read here. Thanks! I'll pass on a 390 Galaxy. Much rather a 327 than that 390 lump.
Attn camry drivers. The accelerator is the skinny pedal on the right.
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