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Flem Offline
#1 Posted : Thursday, 15 November 2018 11:47:38 AM(UTC)
Flem

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I didn’t expect the discussion on the 327 with 12bolt option
to go on for so long. Some very interesting facts and figures though
came out and depending on everyones perspective how different things
can seem. On another but related and also contentious subject.
Can I ask though. Most of these questions have been asked before by others but can we get them together.
HK 1837. Maybe these few Questions will be more in your line.
The 327 motor we call the 1st Type, the one fitted to our
HK GTS 327.
What else was it used for around the world and in what brand of car.
Including in Australia
Meaning the same tune, cam, carby etc, etc. or was it built just to suit our purpose with the HK GTS.
How many of each 1st type & 2nd Type 327 did we use in Australia?
Were there any more big cars ie Chev, Pontiac still being produced in
Australia when the HK was released.
Did we only use those two 327s for the Holden HK Series.
Flem
HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Thursday, 15 November 2018 1:25:42 PM(UTC)
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The first 327 is the only true SBC 327 fitted to a Holden. There was about 900 of them. It is simply an L73 327 as fitted to US full size Chevrolet and also Pontiac and Chevrolet in Canada. Everything is the same except for:

Sump.
LH exhaust manifold.
Carby (more on this later).

The engine itself is identical to the 1968 Impala and Parisienne as assembled here by GMH, except for the sump, carby and LH exhaust manifold.

A.I.R. (Google it) was introduced into California in 1967, and then across the board in the USA 1968. We got something similar with the first ADR27 engines around 9/73. The GMH 1968 Impala and Parisienne have the A.I.R. carby as per the USA auto L73 7028212DH. The GTS327 got a 1967 version carby hence the 7027213 DZ, it is just a manual 4BBL carb as fitted to any 4BBL Quadrajet equipped 327-350 in 1967 (1967 non-AIR Quadrajets are 702 prefix, AIR are 703, but for 1968 they were all AIR so they were all 702). This is why we have unique numbered Quadrajets after the first HK 327 engines, and they go back to normal Chevrolet numbers once we got ADR27 in 8/73.

The later HK 327 is not from a Chevrolet engine plant, so is not a true Chevrolet engine. It is a SBC design engine. It is a special build made for the last 300 or so GTS327 - there were no more 4BBL 327 produced in the USA after 8/68. This engine is a bitza built for GMH, most likely just a truck 327 with a 350 intake and carby. It is not either of the 1969 2BBL 327's (210hp from Camaro or 235hp from full size) with a 4BBL intake and carby as the heads are too low in compression for that, those 2BBL 327's had 69cc chambers for 9:1 compression, most likely 3927185 heads. Our Canadian 327 engine had 75cc 3927188 heads for 8.5:1 compression.

The 1968 Impala and Parisienne were assembled and sold by GMH into 1970, almost up until HQ Statesman replaced them. They continued with the same engine as they has at the start of 1968.

Edited by user Thursday, 15 November 2018 3:20:42 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Flem Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, 15 November 2018 3:01:27 PM(UTC)
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Thanks HK1837. Terrific. so does that mean there were only ever
900 1st Type 327s, all rest were Type 2 and they weren’t really a true Chev.
Were those 900 motors fitted to our GTS numbered consecutively,
A bit like GM saying we’ve only got 900 327s left, they’re numbered
between x and x , if you need anymore they’ll be bit different though.
Did that apply to all makes of cars that had used Chev motor up till then.
In other words was there still any true Chev motors being made at any
Chev plants.
Thanks again HK1837. Most of these things are spread throughout
all the posts, helps me to get a few of them together.
Flem
HK1837 Offline
#4 Posted : Thursday, 15 November 2018 3:50:37 PM(UTC)
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I said about 900, it isn't exactly 900.

Until 1969 there were two Chevrolet engine plants producing engines for Chevrolet vehicles - Tonawanda and Flint V8. McKinnon Industries in Canada built SBC design engines also for Canadian and export vehicles, but not just for Canadian Chevrolet. They built other design engines too, but built SBC design engines for Studebaker, Pontiac, Holden and Statesman amongst others but also for marine use. This is why they do not have Chevrolet scripts on the rocker covers (down below is a link to a 1968 Acadian sale brochure, shows a cross section of 1968 SBC engines in something that is not a Chevrolet. The other link shows you a 50's SBC design engine in Pontiac livery). Sometimes these engines came back to the USA too and were fitted to a Chevrolet. GM restructured in 1969 and formed a separate mechanical division that was formed off all the old engine and driveline divisions. So after 1969 none of them are really Chevrolet engines anymore, they are a GM engine. GM slowly retired the Pontiac, Buick etc engines and the SBC style engine became the corporate standard engine. However most recognise all of them as Chevrolet engines until the SBC engine finished in the 90's and the GenII GM powertrain engine (heavily based upon the old SBC design) took over. Today the GenII style engine is still made in Mexico as a marine engine and as a crate engine. We probably got some of the last true Chevrolet engines in HT and HG with the Tonawanda assembled GTS350 engines. By the time the final HG GTS350 manual engines were built at the Canadian Plant (name changed to St Catharines' at the restructure) they were no longer a true Chevrolet engine anymore, particularly since when these were built late in 1970 there were no high compression 350 4BBL L48 engines in a Chevrolet anymore - the 1971 low compression L48's were now in use from 9/70 (same engine we got in HQ) in the 1971 model Chevrolet vehicles. Again the Canadian plant had to build GMH a limited number of bitza specials so that the HG GTS350 could exist until the end of 1970 and the Chevrolet SS could exist in South Africa until around 1972.

All of the SBC style engines used in locally assembled Holden, Pontiac, Chevrolet or Statesman or supplied by GMH as "crate engines" from the start of 1968 are numbered consecutively, but the sequences are across Acacia Ridge, Pagewood, Dandenong, Elizabeth and Mosman Park. Acacia Ridge starts at 00001, Pagewood at 10000, Dandenong at 40000, Elizabeth at 74000 and Mosman Park at 90000. The sequences reset around the start of HQ. So GTS 327 numbers are mixed up at all assembly plants (other than Mosman Park which didn't assembled GTS327) amongst the far more numerous 307 numbers and also the far more numerous auto 327's in Impala and Pontiac. When HT rolled around GTS350 numbers are mixed with 307 and auto 327 engines. In HQ there is only Holden and Statesman engines. Plus amongst all that the "crate" engines GMH sold, mainly for Marine usage.

https://www.autopaper.co...s-brochure-canadian.php

https://www.jalopyjourna.../a-stb-004a-jpg.3577210/

Edited by user Thursday, 15 November 2018 6:04:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Flem Offline
#5 Posted : Thursday, 15 November 2018 10:33:15 PM(UTC)
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Thanks HK 1837, you just put my diary back an hour for me to stop and read all that.
You were saying though about 900 of those 1st Type 327s fitted to our GTSs.
Did it ever get sorted how many GTS 327s all up, were built including those
900 or so. The 1st Type 327s in our GTS couldn’t have been for a very long
run then, could it. I mean time wise. 2 or 3 months would it be to use up all
those 900 or so.
Flem
HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, 16 November 2018 5:28:11 AM(UTC)
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Just under 1200 total is the accepted figure. They started fitting the McKinnon engines in December 1968, so as far as regular production cars goes that is about 5 1/2 months of production using the Tonawanda engines, late June 1968 into December 1968.
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Flem Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, 16 November 2018 11:12:33 PM(UTC)
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Thanks HK 1837 that’s all wonderful.These questions are not because
of some passing interest, I do own a 1st type 1837 that I bought
off the original owner 39 yrs ago, a Sydney car, #161. All the numbers seem to
add up 660 block,290 heads etc, but I’m a bit puzzled by the exhaust manifold
Cast # with one 3855163 A which I think is ok but the other is 3855164 which
from all my searching it is not a Chev cast #. or is this the different manifold
you were talking about. Maybe you’ve mentioned all this before but I’ve
missed i. When I had those 2 numbers together my immediate thought was
yeh that’s right one number different meaning left and right like a lot of
other places with part numbers. Anyway this is a local car,
I was told by the owner and the salesman, that sold it new,
I got to have a yarn with him about the cars history. It was 1 of 4 that
came here as demonstrators of Colours and engines Combinations
of the new Monaro range. Which could be why it was not delivered
until 27 Nov, it was on the showroom floor. So I know it’s history since
delivery not but much before. ie the date it was built etc. Anyway can you
ease my mind with that exhaust manifold Interestingly I’m pretty sure
the blue 186s is still around here somewhere.
Thanks HK 1837, you’ve been a great help.
Flem
around here somewhere
HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Saturday, 17 November 2018 7:30:29 AM(UTC)
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It is a Chevrolet number, used on a truck or Canadian GM vehicle like a Pontiac that would normally have a Pontiac engine in the USA but got a SBC like most Canadian assembled Pontiacs, possibly even made purposely for RHD export. I think I recall seeing a NOS one for sale on a US site at one stage, and they quoted 1968 C10 truck or something like that.

Number 161-H5 would be maybe October, possibly late September 1968 production. Is it a May assembly engine or does it have one of the March/April assembled engines? I don't think it is quite late enough to get one of the final Tonawanda engines assembled mid July 1968.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Flem Offline
#9 Posted : Saturday, 17 November 2018 1:06:08 PM(UTC)
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T0404H5 & 32714002. on the block. It’s out of the car at the moment.
I’ve just had a look through some of these numbers from the car and
look at some of the numbers you’ve mentioned.
With that GM # 0404 that’s April 4th isn’t it but what does H5 signify.
I think in the US they call it a suffix code but I can’t
find H5 in amongst any listings anywhere. Can you tell me how close
x member stamp 15 H 8 D is to the car assembly date.
The x member also has a white stencil 2805250 on it. Does that help?
Thanks again HK 1837. I take it from all this that you obviously
have an interest in Monaros , thanks for your help here.
Flem
HK1837 Offline
#10 Posted : Saturday, 17 November 2018 2:59:05 PM(UTC)
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Yes 0404 is 4th April 1968. H5 is just the application. Chevrolet ran out of Hx suffixes in 1968, that is why they changed to 3 digit soon after. I have seen H3 mentioned in GM literature for some obscure application, so the GTS327 got H5 as the next number issued. There must be H1, H2 and H4 out there somewhere too. It is probably the last one issued or close to it as these engines weren't made until March 1968 and they started with Hx numbers in August-September 1967. 1968 engine production wrapped up at the end of July 1968, not long after the last of the Tonawanda GTS327 engines were completed.

The car is built after mid August as that is when the crossmember was made.

Your engine is the last of the initial batch of probably 500 engines. There is two more batches before the Tonawanda engines ran out.

Edited by user Saturday, 17 November 2018 3:02:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Flem Offline
#11 Posted : Saturday, 17 November 2018 5:07:33 PM(UTC)
Flem

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Thanks HK 1837, that H5. Good way to confuse the unlearned.
Doesn’t H5 usually have meant Sydney Car.
I had an idea though it was built late in August.
As I said earlier I was told by the dealers sales
man and the bloke I bought it off that it was a Demo car.
According to the maintenance owner hand book the delivery date was
about a couple months after it was built so It obviously
sat on the showroom floor for a few months.
I should have learnt more from the salesman before he passed away.
Thanks very much HK1837, you’ve helped me tie up a few loose
ends on my car.
Oh! Obviously the 12 Bolt option wasn’t being offered as part of this Demo car.
The owner didn’t have any options fitted actually,except maybe a towbar.
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#12 Posted : Sunday, 18 November 2018 10:09:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Flem Go to Quoted Post

It obviously sat on the showroom floor for a few months.


It wasnt uncommon for these expensive cars to sit around at the dealership for a few months.
Mine was completed mid December 1968 but wasnt registered until August 1969. 8 months!
"I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood" (George Carlin)
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