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Warren Turnbull Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, 10 March 2019 6:00:54 PM(UTC)
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Son's VZ has a brake shudder above 70km/h but not below. It has new rotors, fitted before we got it but have no wear.

Brick wall
8D11PCH2 Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, 10 March 2019 7:00:31 PM(UTC)
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The shudder starts when the vehicles speed exceeds 70kph or only when the brakes are applied at speeds above 70kph?
Warren Turnbull Offline
#3 Posted : Sunday, 10 March 2019 8:03:20 PM(UTC)
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only when brakes applied.

It also has a slight vibration at 110km/h, probably tyres need balance.
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#4 Posted : Sunday, 10 March 2019 11:35:59 PM(UTC)
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I'd be pulling the rotors off and checking the mating faces of hubs and discs are all clean and there are no nicks or burrs causing lumps in the mating faces.
Also before undoing anything check all the wheel nuts are correctly tightened and check the calipers are firmly affixed to the stubs.
Check the condition of the Z bar bushes in the lower control arms and the big bushes mounted to the front chassis member.
Check condition of front wheel bearings, ball joints and tie rod ends.

I have a mild shudder in my VZ Holden Cab & Chassis's brakes at the moment, however I know mine is the rotors are worn and need to be machined or replaced.
I don't know if this is just a Holden/Commodore thing but every set of front rotors I put on the wife's VS (exc the last pair) ended up shuddering (incl the original rotors)when worn enough and so far the same deal with my VZ.
One brake shop told me it's because the pads don't sweep right to the edge of the friction surface thus leaving a lip (as the friction surface wears down) that causes the rotor to warp when they heat up during brake application.

Machining the rotors to renew the friction surfaces does eliminate the shudder but as we found out with the VS it wasn't long before I was throwing the original rotors on the scrap heap.
Since then I just buy new rotors, but I only use DBA.
wbute Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 5:08:39 AM(UTC)
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I think modern discs are just made of plasticine. I am on the second set on my Hilux in 245000 km. The first set were shuddering when I bought it at 67000km.
My WB ute is still going strong on its original discs at 265000km.

Edited by user Monday, 11 March 2019 5:09:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 5:32:19 AM(UTC)
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Try PBR T3 rotors.
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8D11PCH2 Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 6:38:13 AM(UTC)
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I tried the DBA T2 rotors on my VZ. They lasted about 30,000km, the original rotors did double that mileage and the std DBA rotors currently fitted have done approx 45,000km.
HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 9:06:15 AM(UTC)
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Sorry, meant DBA not PBR. I’ve had them on my Hilux for about 50,000km so far with Bendix 4x4 pads, and T3 front plus T2 rears on the Lexus RX350 for about 2 years now. Hilux ones are still perfect, still on the same pads. Lexus going in tomorrow for rear pads, will see what the T2’s are like then.
I had the standard size T3’s on the Hilux for a while but took them off as they were overheating, but the originals did too. As I went up a tyre size the original diameter rotors couldn’t handle the increased load. Tyres went from 255/70/15 to 265/65/17.

T3’s are a far better rotor than a T2 in some applications (better metallurgy). However if you screwed a set of T2’s in such low kM either the pads are wrong or the tyres are a bigger diameter than the rotor diameter is designed for or the rears aren’t working properly (eg rear prop valve buggered or not setup right etc). It took a cluey brake shop to point out to me I had a combo of both bigger tyres and sagged front springs (affecting the prop valve) on my Hilux to explain why the Hilux was overheating the rotors. This may be of use to Warren to explain why the rotors have maybe warped? Are the tyres a larger diameter?

Edited by user Monday, 11 March 2019 9:14:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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wbute Offline
#9 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 9:53:44 AM(UTC)
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Wish I had that info last week!
castellan Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 10:48:34 AM(UTC)
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What mainly happens is what's called out gassing, the gunk from the pads sticks to the rotor surface, you can see it as it gives a dull look to the rotor surface.
What I did when I got this problem was, I just took it up to say 200KM/H and stomped on the brakes as hard as you can and them flatten it back up to say 200 again and repeat this 3 times and bingo problem solved, the gunk can truly be seen to be removed and you have a nice shiny disk surface.
Some times you can see on the rotor that only half the job has been done as the centre of the rotor sill has that mat looking build up and the outer and inner are shining like steel should. so you have to repeat the braking as above. or you have to go down the track of getting new pads and getting the disc machined.

I have never had a warped rotor ever on any car that I have owned and I did no less than 50,000KM a year.
8D11PCH2 Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 11:02:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Sorry, meant DBA not PBR. I’ve had them on my Hilux for about 50,000km so far with Bendix 4x4 pads, and T3 front plus T2 rears on the Lexus RX350 for about 2 years now. Hilux ones are still perfect, still on the same pads. Lexus going in tomorrow for rear pads, will see what the T2’s are like then.
I had the standard size T3’s on the Hilux for a while but took them off as they were overheating, but the originals did too. As I went up a tyre size the original diameter rotors couldn’t handle the increased load. Tyres went from 255/70/15 to 265/65/17.

T3’s are a far better rotor than a T2 in some applications (better metallurgy). However if you screwed a set of T2’s in such low kM either the pads are wrong or the tyres are a bigger diameter than the rotor diameter is designed for or the rears aren’t working properly (eg rear prop valve buggered or not setup right etc). It took a cluey brake shop to point out to me I had a combo of both bigger tyres and sagged front springs (affecting the prop valve) on my Hilux to explain why the Hilux was overheating the rotors. This may be of use to Warren to explain why the rotors have maybe warped? Are the tyres a larger diameter?


Pads were those Bendix Premium pads with the Titanium stripe technology BS. Original fitment size tyres for a VZ S cab & chassis. To my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the rear brakes. I will note however that the cab & chassis has a load sensing proportioning valve on the rear brakes and I normally carry about 400kg (incl alloy tray)of it's 1000kg rated load capacity.
Probably due more to the way I drive than anything else however I won't use those Bendix Titanium stripe pads ever again.
HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 12:05:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Wish I had that info last week!


Yours is an easy fix if it is a 2005-2011 (unless it is one of those oddball SR5 dual cab diesels made during 2011 that were the old shape and specs but with stability control):

Buy some new rotors to suit either 120 series Landcruiser (also called a Prado here) or a 2008-2009 TRD Hilux.
Buy some new calipers to suit the same vehicle (or rebuild some old ones as I did but new ones are cheap now).

Both bolt straight on. The harder thing is you need to find some brake backing plates used off a 120 series or TRD Hilux.
Remove the old calipers and rotors, clean up the hub face.
Remove the snap ring and tap the CV shaft with a brass drift to make it slide in the hub, unbolt the 4 x bolts that hold the front hub onto the strut, and swap the old backing plate off for the donor one. Put back together.
Repeat on the other side.
Put new rotors and calipers on and bleed them.

So now you have 100% replicated what a TRD Hilux had so this is 100% legal and self-Engineerable afaik. Only catch is if you have to run 17" rims like a TRD did (or a 2012-15 did), but 265/65/17 tyres will make your speedo accurate. I also replaced the brake booster with a VT Commodore dual diaphragm PBR modified to suit Hilux, as the TRD upgrade and original TRD were slightly spongy on the pedal, still work heaps better than original but pedal feel is not to everyone's liking.


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HK1837 Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 12:13:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 8D11PCH2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Sorry, meant DBA not PBR. I’ve had them on my Hilux for about 50,000km so far with Bendix 4x4 pads, and T3 front plus T2 rears on the Lexus RX350 for about 2 years now. Hilux ones are still perfect, still on the same pads. Lexus going in tomorrow for rear pads, will see what the T2’s are like then.
I had the standard size T3’s on the Hilux for a while but took them off as they were overheating, but the originals did too. As I went up a tyre size the original diameter rotors couldn’t handle the increased load. Tyres went from 255/70/15 to 265/65/17.

T3’s are a far better rotor than a T2 in some applications (better metallurgy). However if you screwed a set of T2’s in such low kM either the pads are wrong or the tyres are a bigger diameter than the rotor diameter is designed for or the rears aren’t working properly (eg rear prop valve buggered or not setup right etc). It took a cluey brake shop to point out to me I had a combo of both bigger tyres and sagged front springs (affecting the prop valve) on my Hilux to explain why the Hilux was overheating the rotors. This may be of use to Warren to explain why the rotors have maybe warped? Are the tyres a larger diameter?


Pads were those Bendix Premium pads with the Titanium stripe technology BS. Original fitment size tyres for a VZ S cab & chassis. To my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the rear brakes. I will note however that the cab & chassis has a load sensing proportioning valve on the rear brakes and I normally carry about 400kg (incl alloy tray)of it's 1000kg rated load capacity.
Probably due more to the way I drive than anything else however I won't use those Bendix Titanium stripe pads ever again.


If it were mine I'd upgrade it to a bigger rotor and caliper, normally any Holden (or Commodore) in that era the brakes were too small if they were called upon to carry load or tow much. My VZ Cross8's brakes were too small for its 2500kg towing capacity, I changed it to V2II Monaro 18" rims and VE size tyres not long before I sold it and was investigating fitting HSV spec brakes (Avalanche) to the front but traded it in on the Hilux. You might find a VZ Maloo front rotor and caliper that work, but finding a 750+kg load rated rim for it might be hard unless you go aftermarket. HSV Avalanche rims would do the job.

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8D11PCH2 Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 12:58:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 8D11PCH2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Sorry, meant DBA not PBR. I’ve had them on my Hilux for about 50,000km so far with Bendix 4x4 pads, and T3 front plus T2 rears on the Lexus RX350 for about 2 years now. Hilux ones are still perfect, still on the same pads. Lexus going in tomorrow for rear pads, will see what the T2’s are like then.
I had the standard size T3’s on the Hilux for a while but took them off as they were overheating, but the originals did too. As I went up a tyre size the original diameter rotors couldn’t handle the increased load. Tyres went from 255/70/15 to 265/65/17.

T3’s are a far better rotor than a T2 in some applications (better metallurgy). However if you screwed a set of T2’s in such low kM either the pads are wrong or the tyres are a bigger diameter than the rotor diameter is designed for or the rears aren’t working properly (eg rear prop valve buggered or not setup right etc). It took a cluey brake shop to point out to me I had a combo of both bigger tyres and sagged front springs (affecting the prop valve) on my Hilux to explain why the Hilux was overheating the rotors. This may be of use to Warren to explain why the rotors have maybe warped? Are the tyres a larger diameter?


Pads were those Bendix Premium pads with the Titanium stripe technology BS. Original fitment size tyres for a VZ S cab & chassis. To my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the rear brakes. I will note however that the cab & chassis has a load sensing proportioning valve on the rear brakes and I normally carry about 400kg (incl alloy tray)of it's 1000kg rated load capacity.
Probably due more to the way I drive than anything else however I won't use those Bendix Titanium stripe pads ever again.


If it were mine I'd upgrade it to a bigger rotor and caliper, normally any Holden (or Commodore) in that era the brakes were too small if they were called upon to carry load or tow much. My VZ Cross8's brakes were too small for its 2500kg towing capacity, I changed it to V2II Monaro 18" rims and VE size tyres not long before I sold it and was investigating fitting HSV spec brakes (Avalanche) to the front but traded it in on the Hilux. You might find a VZ Maloo front rotor and caliper that work, but finding a 750+kg load rated rim for it might be hard unless you go aftermarket. HSV Avalanche rims would do the job.



Nah, it's just a work vehicle. I'm not interested in all the expense and hassles of bigger rims, tyres and fitting bigger brakes. When the rotors f**k up I'll just fit new ones. They are cheap as to replace these days.
wbute Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 2:36:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Wish I had that info last week!


Yours is an easy fix if it is a 2005-2011 (unless it is one of those oddball SR5 dual cab diesels made during 2011 that were the old shape and specs but with stability control):

Buy some new rotors to suit either 120 series Landcruiser (also called a Prado here) or a 2008-2009 TRD Hilux.
Buy some new calipers to suit the same vehicle (or rebuild some old ones as I did but new ones are cheap now).

Both bolt straight on. The harder thing is you need to find some brake backing plates used off a 120 series or TRD Hilux.
Remove the old calipers and rotors, clean up the hub face.
Remove the snap ring and tap the CV shaft with a brass drift to make it slide in the hub, unbolt the 4 x bolts that hold the front hub onto the strut, and swap the old backing plate off for the donor one. Put back together.
Repeat on the other side.
Put new rotors and calipers on and bleed them.

So now you have 100% replicated what a TRD Hilux had so this is 100% legal and self-Engineerable afaik. Only catch is if you have to run 17" rims like a TRD did (or a 2012-15 did), but 265/65/17 tyres will make your speedo accurate. I also replaced the brake booster with a VT Commodore dual diaphragm PBR modified to suit Hilux, as the TRD upgrade and original TRD were slightly spongy on the pedal, still work heaps better than original but pedal feel is not to everyone's liking.



Yeah it’s a 2011 dual cab diesel SR5 directly before the facelift. Not sure on the stability control but it has traction control?
I actually reckon that’s the main reason it chews up discs. It’s ridiculous trying to drive on dirt roads as it engages as soon as you look like losing traction and then starts pounding the front brakes that hardthat the first time it happened I actually stopped to see what had broken in the front end. It must put so much unnecessary wear and stress on the breaks. You can turn it off but you need to do it every time you drive it. This stuff really doesn’t suit some conditions in rural Australia.
wbute Offline
#16 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 2:41:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
What mainly happens is what's called out gassing, the gunk from the pads sticks to the rotor surface, you can see it as it gives a dull look to the rotor surface.
What I did when I got this problem was, I just took it up to say 200KM/H and stomped on the brakes as hard as you can and them flatten it back up to say 200 again and repeat this 3 times and bingo problem solved, the gunk can truly be seen to be removed and you have a nice shiny disk surface.
Some times you can see on the rotor that only half the job has been done as the centre of the rotor sill has that mat looking build up and the outer and inner are shining like steel should. so you have to repeat the braking as above. or you have to go down the track of getting new pads and getting the disc machined.

I have never had a warped rotor ever on any car that I have owned and I did no less than 50,000KM a year.


Yeah I have boiled brake fluid on dirt bikes plenty of times and turned discs blue but never warped one of those. But the Hilux and Prado have both done it. The discs are shined up but they get so worn that there is no way you would get two sets of pads out of them. Plus, neither are capable of doing 200 and I can’t afford the risk of losing my license. I also do 50K a year and all highway driving except for ten k’s of dirt everyday. I reckon that’s where the damage is occurring with the stupid traction control and ABS.
HK1837 Offline
#17 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 3:50:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Wish I had that info last week!


Yours is an easy fix if it is a 2005-2011 (unless it is one of those oddball SR5 dual cab diesels made during 2011 that were the old shape and specs but with stability control):

Buy some new rotors to suit either 120 series Landcruiser (also called a Prado here) or a 2008-2009 TRD Hilux.
Buy some new calipers to suit the same vehicle (or rebuild some old ones as I did but new ones are cheap now).

Both bolt straight on. The harder thing is you need to find some brake backing plates used off a 120 series or TRD Hilux.
Remove the old calipers and rotors, clean up the hub face.
Remove the snap ring and tap the CV shaft with a brass drift to make it slide in the hub, unbolt the 4 x bolts that hold the front hub onto the strut, and swap the old backing plate off for the donor one. Put back together.
Repeat on the other side.
Put new rotors and calipers on and bleed them.

So now you have 100% replicated what a TRD Hilux had so this is 100% legal and self-Engineerable afaik. Only catch is if you have to run 17" rims like a TRD did (or a 2012-15 did), but 265/65/17 tyres will make your speedo accurate. I also replaced the brake booster with a VT Commodore dual diaphragm PBR modified to suit Hilux, as the TRD upgrade and original TRD were slightly spongy on the pedal, still work heaps better than original but pedal feel is not to everyone's liking.



Yeah it’s a 2011 dual cab diesel SR5 directly before the facelift. Not sure on the stability control but it has traction control?
I actually reckon that’s the main reason it chews up discs. It’s ridiculous trying to drive on dirt roads as it engages as soon as you look like losing traction and then starts pounding the front brakes that hardthat the first time it happened I actually stopped to see what had broken in the front end. It must put so much unnecessary wear and stress on the breaks. You can turn it off but you need to do it every time you drive it. This stuff really doesn’t suit some conditions in rural Australia.


If it is the diesel 2011 SR5 dual cab just before the facelift it will have stability control. These have the one-off 17x7.5” rims. Prior to it all SR5 were 15x7, and the 2011 V6 (mine) also had the 15” wheels. The rims are identical dimensions, offset etc to 2012-2015 SR5, 2008-09 TRD and also 120 Prado Grande with 17” rims.

That 2011 you have does have bigger front rotors than earlier ones, from memory they are 319x28mm versus the 15” wheel versions were 297x25mm. Toyota did this as the 265/65/17 tyres are bigger diameter than the 255/70/15 tyres. The upgrade I was talking about gives you 338x28mm rotors, which is what you want if you want to go bigger than 265/65/17 tyres. TRD went for this size too due to the higher output engine. The 150 series 338x32mm rotors and calipers fit too but from what I have been told you need to upgrade the master cylinder too with these.

Edited by user Monday, 11 March 2019 4:06:54 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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wbute Offline
#18 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 3:58:07 PM(UTC)
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Ah well there you go. It does have 17” wheels. I will keep that in mind if I replace them again.
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#19 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 4:58:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 8D11PCH2 Go to Quoted Post
I tried the DBA T2 rotors on my VZ. They lasted about 30,000km, the original rotors did double that mileage and the std DBA rotors currently fitted have done approx 45,000km.


On my VS and VY I just put Bendix Ultimate pads on stock rotors and went through two sets of pads and then just up rated stock type of rotors without slots or holes and got the same life out of them.
So I would use one set of pads and just pop a new set in on the worn rotor without doing anything to them and by the time the second pads were roo Ted the rotors were too cracked and worn to bother with, so I just tossed them and got new rotors.

A mate with the same cars went to the slotted and holed rotors and went off them because he said that they cracked more so, but he drove like a rat bag all he time. He has the last of the VF SSV utes with 400hp at the rear wheels and only crappy Cop Pack brakes up grade and he knows the are crap for the power that he has and the next upgrade bigger rotors are big money to look after.
Warren Turnbull Offline
#20 Posted : Monday, 11 March 2019 7:11:24 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the responses.

It has new bearing and what looks like new rotor. I was changing the rotor with the ones on my wife's car (was disposing of it anyway) when I found a faulty bearing, so replaced that and no fix. (maybe I should not have reversed the rotors back to the way they were)

Will check the rubbers, did not even think of that.

I am not going to do the 200km/h thing, not real safe around here. Might give them a rub down with wet and dry or emery cloth to remove any build up.

Warren
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