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wbute Offline
#61 Posted : Friday, 9 August 2019 3:25:13 PM(UTC)
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Yeah I know but it was interesting that it had the column shift like the other Statesman that was being discussed.
HK1837 Offline
#62 Posted : Friday, 9 August 2019 4:08:34 PM(UTC)
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I think the delete buckets and console shift on WB Deville was only when Trimatic was available, so it is only 1982-1984/5 models. ‘80 and ‘81 should all be console shift.
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Dr Terry Offline
#63 Posted : Friday, 9 August 2019 7:49:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I think the delete buckets and console shift on WB Deville was only when Trimatic was available, so it is only 1982-1984/5 models. ‘80 and ‘81 should all be console shift.


Correct, the literature I have says TriMatic replaced TH350 around Nov 81, however PO A75 (front bench, column auto) wasn't available until Nov 82.

They were not all that uncommon at the time, they were sold as hire cars & also to Govt. fleets. A bit like the original HQ Statesman in 6-cyl & 253 form, common in the day, not so now.

Maybe working in the industry (for hire car companies & for & with dealerships) I've seen more of these than most.

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HK1837 Offline
#64 Posted : Saturday, 10 August 2019 10:59:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
202HC and M15 3spd manual was standard in a HQ 6cyl Statesman. 253HC and M15 3spd manual was standard in V8 HQ Statesman. In the 6cyl one you could option M40, M20 and possibly even M22. Not sure if you could option a heavy duty rear axle (Salisbury) in HQ Statesman, also if 202LC was optional. In V8 HQ Statesman you could option the other three optional V8 engines (253LC, 308 and 350). 308 would be standard with M21 and optional with M40, L30 (350) would be auto only.

I have total HQ to WB Statesman build numbers, 6cyl is pretty low in comparison, around 1500 from memory. I think there was one 308 M21 Statesman and not many 350 either but 1000’s of 350 Devilles plus lots of the Chevrolet badged XU7 export/consulate versions as well with 350. There used to be a white M21 plated Deville near me but it had to be a mistake as it didn’t have the telltale 4spd evidence on the body.

I have seen plenty of both 6cyl and 253 Statemans in wreckers but never bothered collecting tags off them. I only ever collected 350 Deville tag sets which I think I have at least two sets, maybe three. Dr Terry told me he saw an 11QS engine once, but I have not seen an 11QM or 11QS personally.

Plenty of HJ Devilles made in 3.3L 4spd too for export to Malaysia as SUP vehicles. This was the standard driveline for this car in that market. I don’t think any of the Statesman bodied cars were CKD either, only SUP so they would only ever have got GMH engines not local engines eg 250ci Chevy design in South Africa.


I found those Statesman build totals, it is an archival document generated on 14/12/84 for the history file. The rarest is HQ 6cyl at 749 followed by HX Caprice at 1526 and HQ V8 Statesman at 1587. The most common is HQ Deville at 15760 followed by WB Deville at 9717. The rest all sit between 2500-ish and 6000-ish. You can see why they dropped the Statesman at the end of HQ as Deville was about 9x more made. I bet Monaro was dropped at the end of HQ for similar reasons.

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justgm Offline
#65 Posted : Saturday, 10 August 2019 2:36:20 PM(UTC)
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Hi all , what about VN LS wagon 20 only. Thanks Mark.
life is good in "Wine & Holden Marlborough "
Dr Terry Offline
#66 Posted : Saturday, 10 August 2019 3:22:10 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: justgm Go to Quoted Post
Hi all , what about VN LS wagon 20 only. Thanks Mark.


To my knowledge these were NZ market only, but rare just the same.

Dr Terry
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commodorenut Offline
#67 Posted : Saturday, 10 August 2019 9:20:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
It was originally a 6cyl though wasn’t it? It was probably originally a 6cyl auto which would be standard with bench seat and column shift. Was it a Kingswood or Holden ute?


It was a 6 banger. Not sure on transmission etc. I just couldn’t believe it had a column shift Statesman interior!


The Brock Magnum ute, doesn't really cut it as a one-off or rare Holden. It was built/converted by HDT post production. It's not the same car that left the assembly line.

Dr Terry

Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Yeah I know but it was interesting that it had the column shift like the other Statesman that was being discussed.


It was converted by HDT well after it was produced by Holden, and as it started as a regular WB commercial, the column shift + statesman interior becomes irrelevant, as it didn't have this combination from the factory.

HDT had "parts bin" access (albeit restricted dramatically after Feb 1987), and would have sourced whatever the customer wanted.
The seat would be trimmed to suit whatever they needed it to.
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wbute Offline
#68 Posted : Sunday, 11 August 2019 8:38:56 AM(UTC)
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Yeah I am aware of all that. The bloke that had it built is distantly connected to my wife. Then it ended up with another owner in my home town. It had a 5 post bullbar and all the Aggie accessories of the day on it then. I checked it out not long before he sold it, when it was parked in the Orange Ag car park. I have also spoken to the current owner.
Apparently it sat in the HDT workshop for a long time before they ended up building it.
I was only saying it was coincidental that the only Magnum ute had this terrible interior put in it too.
Did anyone ever work out why the column shift WB Statesman had the different three spoke steering wheel?

Edited by user Sunday, 11 August 2019 8:44:30 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#69 Posted : Sunday, 11 August 2019 2:28:59 PM(UTC)
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Just imagine if GMH hadn’t made the mistake of using Nissan engines and boxes and made the decision to stop building V8’s in the mid 80’s. They probably would have then kept building WB or subsequent series until at least VG release. Meaning injected 5L and 3.8L V6 plus 4L60 and T5 in the W size Holden, plus maybe even Statesman until VQ release. HDT and later HSV could have built some nice W size commercials. Ford did it with the XF transition into XG/XH, no reason GMH couldn’t have been even more successful with it.
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castellan Offline
#70 Posted : Sunday, 11 August 2019 4:04:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Just imagine if GMH hadn’t made the mistake of using Nissan engines and boxes and made the decision to stop building V8’s in the mid 80’s. They probably would have then kept building WB or subsequent series until at least VG release. Meaning injected 5L and 3.8L V6 plus 4L60 and T5 in the W size Holden, plus maybe even Statesman until VQ release. HDT and later HSV could have built some nice W size commercials. Ford did it with the XF transition into XG/XH, no reason GMH couldn’t have been even more successful with it.


Look at how long it took Ford to come up with the XG, so you have a crappy gutless 4.1L XF carby with no EFI option ute and p van in 1988, when you had the EA Falcon ect with OHC 3.2L and 3.9L and the MPI EFI.

Now I would think Fords reasoning was for keeping the 4.1L crap was, 1 the OHC lacked low down torque of the OHV or 2 they claim that people who buy such things are not into modern tec things. but I gave them a hard time back in 1992 about the 4.1L saying I am not buying that gutless fuel using crap, not to mention that they all sprung up and started talking to each other about what I said in earnest.

When you look at the old Log 6 engines still being in Transit's and F100's till mid/1978 until they got the up dated X Flow engines.
One wonders why, well the Log six has a bit more torque right down low off the mark maybe one reason, not to mention that they did not need to run ADR27A on them, until the X Flow went in.
Then you have only low compression log 200 in Transit's and high compression 250 in the F100's.

They would of had to stock pile X amount of them old log engines to hold out for 2 years or maybe they still were casting them ?

The same thing with the XF ute from 1988 to 1992 with the X Flow, that's 4 years of stock pile, but I do believe that they were still making the 4.1L as they were making the OHC, because if I remember correctly I think that they get a up rated crank and new up rated oils seals fitted as to the old XF sedan sometime after, I think with the new 4.0L using the same pistons and maybe up rated rods.

But Ford stockpiled the V8's from 1982 to 1885 = 3 years stock pile for the F100's and not to mention the De Tomaso's got them 5.8L as well in them years.

But as for the WB running till they came out with the VG Commodore ute, sure it would of been fine but the been counters ect must off kicked that in the guts, a EFI 3.3L was a good performing engine, it had much better low down torque than the VL Nissan 3.0L and with a 5sp manual it would of been fine and it would not of been hard for Holden to make it run on unleaded, with seat inserts and better quality valves, compression would of dropped to 8.5:1 so I would of lost a bit more power. but what 5sp could they use ? or just use the 4sp manual.

I don't mind the Nissan 3.0L but a WC ute would need a lower 1st gear to get it off the mark when loaded up than the VL.
HK1837 Offline
#71 Posted : Sunday, 11 August 2019 5:06:15 PM(UTC)
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I think they’d decided to drop the Holden 6 and V8 well before WB ended as VL would have been locked in by then. They initially intended only to run the Nissan EFI and turbo 6’s which is probably why they stopped the W size vehicles. If they’d decided prior to convert the 5.0L to unleaded they probably would of at least kept Statesman for a while longer, maybe just V8 commercials.
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ExportHolden Offline
#72 Posted : Monday, 12 August 2019 8:29:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post

Did anyone ever work out why the column shift WB Statesman had the different three spoke steering wheel?


The column-shift WB sedan used a VC-VK two-spoke Commodore wheel. I haven't ever gotten a clear answer to why; the best clue I have is a document called 'WB Features' issued periodically by GM-H Engineering.

In that document the (aborted) WB Kingswood and Premier are described, with line drawings of relevant features eg nose/tail detail, door card trim detail. One of those drawings was for steering wheels; the Kingswood and Premier were to get the VC Commodore wheel. My guess is that GM-H decided that given the six-seater would be in some way a fleet special (as Dr Terry described) perhaps giving it a base Commodore steering wheel - which they knew would fit -- would be better than a premium single spoke wheel as used in 5-seat DeVille and Caprice.
HK1837 Offline
#73 Posted : Monday, 12 August 2019 9:10:27 AM(UTC)
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The WB Kingswood sedan pilot at Birdwood (assembled 9/79) has VB/VC steering wheel and seat cloth. I’m not sure if it is a Kingswood or a Kingswood SL though. There is a photo of a black one in one of Norm Darwin’s books that has the WB Statesman rear end on it, but it has no side strips which confuses the issue a bit. The one at Birdwood is the first WB assembled at Elizabeth, and the badges just say Kingswood. It is a blue 3.3L, M20 and 3.55 small Salisbury. It may have been stuffed with a bit though over time though.
Norm also states in that book that as all the bits for the WB pilots had been procured they were assembled even though the WB passenger vehicles had been canned. Apparently the GM wasn’t happy about it. I have the list of pilots somewhere, only a few were assembled.
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clay Offline
#74 Posted : Tuesday, 27 August 2019 11:13:27 PM(UTC)
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Can’t remember where exactly but I recall GMH figures stating that ONE hydramatic bodied EK ute was built
hainzy Offline
#75 Posted : Sunday, 1 September 2019 8:34:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
67 VC SL/E Wagons would be up/down there.

VP V6 SS, Holden's last Bathurst special, 150 built

VH top 30

Lots of limited production, but also dealer ordered special would be another category:

Suttons GTS Panel van
Pattersons 50th anniversary HQ


Ive just scored myself a VC SLE wagon Warren. Its been sitting in a paddock and ive been chasing it for about 2 years. The owner finally caved in to my constant badgering! ha.

Apparently only about 25 were made in the end as the head honchos stopped the program. A bloke on the just commodores forum who used to work at GMH in the early 80s said it was due to the wagons wheel arches being different and they couldnt properly fit the SLE wheels in there without massaging the lip. So they were never properly engineered and should never have legally been sold.

Mine is firethorn with the carmine interior. Like the VC Brocks!

Anyway, will go well with my Top 30. I can open a rare commodore museum!
Warren Turnbull Offline
#76 Posted : Monday, 2 September 2019 2:42:37 PM(UTC)
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The SL/E wheels are 15x6 and the standard wheels are 14 x 6, so would make no difference as the rolling diameter of a 14 and 15 are the same. I think you will find N67 alloy wheels were optional on sedan and wagon, Mick will be able to confirm.

These were a dealer special and were only available through 28 Melbourne and Geelong dealers. These would have been all ordered before the advertisements were done as each dealer would have nominated how many each wanted, hence the strange number.

Will go well with the top 30. Maybe a VC royal or anniversary are needed as well, being the only two Commodores to be numbered by Holden, royal also came with personalize plates that match the built number.
commodorenut Offline
#77 Posted : Wednesday, 4 September 2019 6:46:44 AM(UTC)
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That particular forum has been the source of so much rubbish over the years I'm not surprised at yet another one. Think about the age of someone in 1980 working at Holden, in a position to know what the Engineering and Costing departments were doing. They'd have to be at least 23-25 years old then, but being the boy's club it was back then, you'll find the ages much higher. Any such person would be at least 65 now, and unless you're like Terry (a very rare person) many people that age rarely visit online forums.....

There have been numerous other reasons quoted by people who were there at the time (like Norm Darwin). Most involved the additional cost of outsourcing the low volume interior trim, and difficulties in getting it right on the assembly line. Whilst the brochure notes only red or blue, 2 nutmeg ones have turned up - one of these with a broadcast to confirm it, and the other one is pretty much almost guaranteed, as it sports the same unique trim, but in a different colour.

First I've heard of the 15" wheels being an issue. Hell, my Brock wagon is running 16x7 Momo Stars & wider rubber.....

And Warren makes a good point - they were offered as an option on the SL (and VH SL/X) wagons too.

I find this story about the wheel-arches a bit far fetched. Even more so when there's MORE space in a wagon because the shocks are layed over. In the 80s a way to fit wider rubber to a sedan was to put a wagon diff under it, and angle the shocks in using the wagon mounts.

Edited by user Wednesday, 4 September 2019 9:09:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Correction suggested by Dr Terry.

Cheers,

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hainzy Offline
#78 Posted : Friday, 6 September 2019 1:10:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: commodorenut Go to Quoted Post
That particular forum has been the source of so much rubbish over the years I'm not surprised at yet another one. Think about the age of someone in 1980 working at Holden, in a position to know what the Engineering and Costing departments were doing. They'd have to be at least 23-25 years old then, but being the boy's club it was back then, you'll find the ages much higher. Any such person would be at least 65 now, and unless you're like Terry (a very rare person) many people that age rarely visit online forums.....

There have been numerous other reasons quoted by people who were there at the time (like Norm Darwin). Most involved the additional cost of outsourcing the low volume interior trim, and difficulties in getting it right on the assembly line. Whilst the brochure notes only red or blue, 2 nutmeg ones have turned up - one of these with a broadcast to confirm it, and the other one is pretty much almost guaranteed, as it sports the same unique trim, but in a different colour.

First I've heard of the 15" wheels being an issue. Hell, my Brock wagon is running 16x7 Momo Stars & wider rubber.....

And Warren makes a good point - they were offered as an option on the SL (and VH SL/X) wagons too.

I find this story about the wheel-arches a bit far fetched. Even more so when there's MORE space in a wagon because the shocks are layed over. In the 80s a way to fit wider rubber to a sedan was to put a wagon diff under it, and angle the shocks in using the wagon mounts.


Cheers guys. yes you may well be right. Who knows..? Whats that saying, 'theres my version, and theres your version, and somewhere in the middle, is the truth..'

I just dug out his post again and had another read, and it appears he was talking more about the tyres than the wheels. More to do with the availability of load rated tyres. So I may have misquoted him a bit.

Anyway heres his post, in case youre interested to see if it makes any sense.

there was NO program.. simply, all VC SL/E wagosn were never approved by the
GMH Product Committee or the GMH board of directors

I was there at the time as part of the Forward Models group (who had to approve
ALL GMH new models before they were sent to the Product Approval Committee)
and
when news that Manufacturing had made them... the S H I T REALLY hit the fan inside
GMH (the talk even got to junking ALL of them.. but ouch $ wise) Sales were also
hung out to dry for ask the VAP guys to make them..

Officially there is NO VC SL/E.. all were tagged 8VL35 deliberately (and not 8VX35)

my recollection was.. tyres (NOT wheel size as some say)

All Holden wagons are assumed to be load carriers (from way back to VF) and so have different rear suspensions
and different tyres (higher load ratings*, 6 ply versus 4 ply etc)

Back then, no tyre supplier made a 15" low profile tyre (like fitted to the SL/e sedans) that had a higher load rating as well
as being a 'stronger' tyre... so no 15" wheel/tyre combo for 8VK35 styles = no SL/e version

Hence the big POO fight internally with GMH, as Manufacturing made a car that did not pass Engineering
min specs. The cars really should not have been given an 'approved' GMH build plate.... because
they were not 'approved'

Edited by user Friday, 6 September 2019 1:14:37 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#79 Posted : Friday, 6 September 2019 2:20:00 PM(UTC)
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Not sure about V sized wagons, but I don't think W size and even HK-HG before that had 6 ply tyres standard on wagons. They were the same tyres as sedans. For HZ for example the maximum rear axle load of an SL sedan was 1043kg and the SL wagon was 1180kg. So that is 521.5kg load on the sedan tyre and 590kg on the wagon tyre.
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commodorenut Offline
#80 Posted : Friday, 6 September 2019 8:15:50 PM(UTC)
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Tyres still doesn't account for the fact you could get the alloys on VC SL wagons (and VH SL/X).
Early commodores were light enough not to be encroaching on any load rating, even when fully loaded with a V8 and power options.
(and bear in mind everything in the way of mod-cons in the VC SL/E wagon was available at extra cost on the VH SL/X wagon just a year later too), with the exception of the tailgate applique.

The 8VL35 coding is common knowledge, especially as the VL Calais wagon had the same 8VL35, with the option pack of A9Y stamped additionally on the plate.
Although I have read posts on that very forum in the early 2000s with people claiming to have VH wagons with 8VX35 on the tags.....

I'm still not buying that it snuck out and was stopped. Look at the wagon tailgate applique around the lock - it's an Opel part, and requires special holes to be drilled. It would have had to be engineered as no other wagon had it. The special trim done by Ashlors - as mentioned in the brochure too. And the brochure! These were well known about at many levels to have come that far along.

I still agree with Norm Darwin's musings that costs are what killed it - they under-estimated just how expensive all the unique processes and parts would be, and the cost accountants are the ones who had it tanked.
Cheers,

Mick
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