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HK1837 Offline
#1 Posted : Friday, 23 October 2015 8:01:14 AM(UTC)
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Just wondering if anyone here knows anyone with a very original one of these complete with its original 4BBL 327 engine?

These are very elusive cars. The 1968 versions with the same engine as the HK are pretty plentiful both here and in the USA, but the L73 4BBL 327 was a COPO only option in 1966-1967 in the USA and Canada, and normally only on Police vehicles.

We are trying to find one to see where its engine was sourced from, ie is it a Flint or Tonawanda engine, what sort of engine number GMH added (if any) and what carby they got, plus other similar stuff.
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FE327CHEVY Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, 8 December 2015 1:17:36 PM(UTC)
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Gday. I have seen your discussions on various forums about your hk research. I have an engine here that I would like help identifying and/or might interest you.

It's a 1967 Canadian built 327 with 3903352 block, a 3905393 intake with quadrajet, HI cast on engine, PP 4482 heads, 1111150 dizzy, had blue valve covers and the heads are late 66 cast but engine and heads are early 1967. Interesting how this intake is also on the 350 of the same year.

Other info I found for you but can't remember why (you have many threads lol) but FYI the 3919803 intake is the same casting as 3844459. Cam has number 2993 from memory.

Going by all the parts, they check out as possible impala, camaro, Chevy ii or chevelle.

BUT it has an interesting number, suffix code. I thought it might be a police motor cos I've never seen blue valve covers on a 327? And although not completely weird for 1967, it has the following number: 15393 k0213.

I was thinking perhaps it was to replace a Biscayne six with the "153" but not sure.

Anyway I have the engine disassembled if you would like to know anything about it. PS; That intake only correlates with 275hp cars, so I thought it was an L30.
HK1837 Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, 8 December 2015 3:12:11 PM(UTC)
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Hi, welcome to the forum.

Strange one. I'd say it is a 327/210hp engine as the McKinnon plant in Canada only built 2BBL engines up until 1969. The 3814482 75cc heads are consistent with this application as is the block. The block is 1967 only so i'd say it was originally a 1967 210hp 2BBL 327. These were from Camaro, Full size Chevy and in Canada also in Pontiacs from memory. You'd need to see the suffix code of the engine number to tell.

The intake is common to 1967 327/275 and 350/295. The only difference between this manifold and a 3919803 manifold is yours should have the water temp sensor hole in it, the 1968 engines have it in the head. My guess is someone put that manifold on a 210hp engine. OR it is possibly a 327/240hp engine as you say which would answer the question about what the compression ratio of one of these was: about 8.55:1 (rounded to 8.75:1). Would again need to see the suffix code on it.

15393K0213 looks an awful lot like a GMH 307 engine number, 30715393K0213 is a valid HK Holden 307 engine number from a Pagewood (Sydney) vehicle, but it may also be the way the McKinnon plant did it and why our 307's are like they are, Can you get me a picture of the engine number?
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FE327CHEVY Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, 8 December 2015 4:13:31 PM(UTC)
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Do you think the 3 looks like it was done here making it a replacement engine? That block could be anything because that cast number was used widely. The 283 generic type power pack heads are probably for this engine. It's a February 67 block and heads are December 1966. To me it looks like the same stamping they did on old grey motors etc. The 3 doesn't look factory to me. What you think?









HK1837 Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, 8 December 2015 4:49:12 PM(UTC)
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The K0213 is from the McKinnon plant but the other number isn't a GMH stamping. I don't think it is a partial VIN, not from a US vehicle anyway. It is possible someone has stamped it there later.

I don't think they are Powerpack heads, not with 75cc chambers. Powerpacks have much smaller chambers - used on high compression 283.

Does the manifold have a T on it, just like the R but behind the carby? If it does this is a Tonawanda intake, which aligns with the later HK GTS327 engines which were also McKinnon with a Tonawanda intake (as Tonawanda didn't do 4BBL intakes until 1969).

My guess is it is possibly a 1967 GMH Pontiac or Impala engine and someone has stamped extra numbers into it, whether it be GMH or someone has used an old 307 number later to make it look like a HK engine.

Is the paint on it the same shade as a HK-HG 307/327/350 or a HD-HG X2/186S? If it is it has to be a GMH used engine. Or is it Chevy Orange?

Also did it have a Quaddy on it? What are its numbers if it did?
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HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, 8 December 2015 5:33:41 PM(UTC)
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Also, can you get the cast dates off the engine, block and heads? And if it has manifolds off those and see if they are Tonawanda or McKinnon. Tonawanda has a T and McKinnon has an M in a box.

What sump was on it?
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FE327CHEVY Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, 8 December 2015 9:21:53 PM(UTC)
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Block, heads, etc all have "made in Canada". The block cast date is 7 February. So that fits with the Feb build date. They must have built engines as 4 barrel in Canada because the Biscayne and chevelle sports sedan came to oz as options and there were Pontiac model engines assembled there for Perisienne etc that used impala drivetrains. I thought they were identical.

I may have my terminology wrong with power pack I think they are 75cc basic turbo fire engine I should say. I don't think it's a Holden engine. What about this, the 1 for chev, the 53 for Biscayne 6 Cyl and the 93 for sports sedan four door. So is it possible it was an order stuff up or special order and they used the code of the original car ordered? The biscayne, prissiene etc all had the l30 option and were built there on smaller chassis from impala. That's the only numbers that could make sense. The casting is car only. The guy I bought from said the guy he got it from said it was from chevelle. It's a 1967 only 390352 casting. I'll have a look at the intake tomorrow. Where would the number on the cam be mate? I'm thinking a very low number make of Pontiac now. They used the 327 in other models too with the four barrel. There's blokes talking about their cars from new with four barrels. It makes sense that they made them during 1967 at some stage cos they would have made, them for the 350 I'd have thought. But I'll look at the intake tomoz if I can to see the date. So far the dates all match close from December 66 to Feb 67.

Would be handy mate if someone answered you question lol about an; original perisienne
HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Wednesday, 9 December 2015 6:36:43 AM(UTC)
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McKinnon didn't tool for 4 barrel manifolds until 1969, they only made 2 barrel engines prior to that, the other engines were imported from Flint or Tonawanda. This is why the 1968 GMH Parisienne, Impala and HK Holden 327 engines are from Tonawanda but the 2BBL 307 is Canadian. However in 1966-7 the 4 Barrel 327 was not readily available in US vehicles, it was a COPO option normally for Police cars. It is possible that the McKinnon engine plant used an imported Tonawanda 4BBL manifold on their standard 2BBL engine - this is essentially what the later HK engine is.

The L30 as used in Canadian assembled Chevrolet and Pontiac is either a Flint or Tonawanda engine not a McKinnon engine. This is a higher performance engine than what you have or what we got here. They had 64cc double hump heads on them (462 in 1967 and 291 in 1968) but are otherwise identical to the 240/250hp engines that we got here. The engine we got here is an L73 for 1968, and I don't think it had a code in 1967 - this is what I think yours may be, whether it be from a GMH car or from a Canadian car.

The thing that makes me think it wasn't originally from a Chevelle is it doesn't have a suffix code on it. It is more likely to be from a Canadian vehicle like a Beaumont or Arcadian or Laurentian, or a CKD car like our Impala or Parisienne (which were Canadian spec vehicles) BUT i'm not sure which Canadian vehicle used a 240hp engine (if any) other than the Aussie Parisienne and Impala. The Canadian engines were known as Econoflame and Astroflame and words like that. I have the 1967 Acadian, Beaumont and Pontiac range sales brochures and they all have only the 10:1 275hp L30 327, but one of the others may have the 240hp 8.75:1 version. This is assuming yours was originally a 4BBL, it may be a 210hp engine with a 4BBL manifold put on later - this is not uncommon, half the Aussie 307's had this done to them before 1975.
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FE327CHEVY Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, 9 December 2015 7:55:49 AM(UTC)
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I really appreciate your time explaining the differences. To me it doesn't matter what it is from because I'm not matching it to a car. I agree that it's most likely the models suggested. So I think we can safely say that it's not a replacement, warranty or crate enbgine. It's not an L30 and due to the early 67's not having partial vins, its likely to be from a Canadian car.

I just thought if it was some kind of gm engine or a bit of a weird one, then you might have been interested to see it lol.

Heads casting is 22 December 1966.482 heads. Block cast b37 not the 6th Feb that I wrote.



Pistons look like they aren't ovesize:



This block matches year specific to 1967 and a local guy has a 67 with a later engine. So I didn't want to offer this block for his car if the block was identifiably something else. I'll look on some other faces for stampings and try to find the manifold stamps etc. But I do appreciate the info. I just found it hard to believe how many cars they made and that a four barrel hadnt been tooled by then that's all.

So is what you are saying is that any Canadian car ordered with the sports sedan option was a complete engine already assembled and shipped to Canada for the particular car?

Edited by user Wednesday, 9 December 2015 8:58:14 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, 9 December 2015 8:44:25 AM(UTC)
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Yes, from what I've worked out so far. The locally (Oshawa Ontario) assembled Pontiacs had the SBC engines and were orange. The ones with the blue Pontiac engines were whole cars imported from the USA into Canada. And the ones with the higher performance SBC engines were engines imported from the USA into Canada. I do remember reading somewhere that the build numbers for Beaumonts with the L30 275hp engine were like double digit, that is how rare they were. Most had the lower performance engines.

Note that pre 1969 McKinnon Industries was a subsidiary of GM, it became GM of Canada St Catharine's in 1969. So technically engines built by McKinnon Industries prior to 1969 are not Chevrolet engines, they are SBC design engines. This is why we think the McKinnon engines didn't have the Chevrolet script in the rocker cover. These engines were used in Pontiac, Studebaker, Mercury marine, GMH etc vehicles. All built by McKinnon for those vehicles.

I'm actually still leaning toward your engine being out of a 1967 GMH assembled Parisienne or Impala. From what I understand the earlier CKD vehicles all had their bodies built at Woodville in South Australia and were assembled at Birkenhead up to about 1962 or later Elizabeth (not certain as to exact timing). They were also done at other assembly plants but not sure exactly when. However prior to the 307 engines being installed in HK in late 1967 for 1968 release and similar timeframe for 327 engines in 1968 Impala and Parisienne release in 2/68 GMH only ever stamped their engines they built at Fisherman's bend. The new phenomenon of the assembly plants stamping the imported engines saw them using the same engine stamps as used at Fisherman's bend - each assembly plant had its own dedicated engine number sequence to use (0-9999 Acacia Ridge, 10000-39999 Pagewood, 40000-73999 Dandenong, 74000-89999 Elizabeth and 90000-99999 Mosman park). BUT, prior to then i'm not sure what form the engine number took. It is possible that engine number you have is the body number off the car it went into, or a partial PSN. 1593 could also be the body number or even an engine sequence number (starting at 1001 like most GMH numbers did), the 3 could be the location eg Elizabeth. Until we find some original 1967 GMH vehicles we won't know. The damn things are as rare as hen's teeth!

Here is a Tonawanda 1968 4BBL intake, you can see the Tonawanda T under the casting number:
http://www.2040-parts.co...27-275-300-hp--i1156325/


I appreciate the info too, all helpful.

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FE327CHEVY Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, 9 December 2015 11:18:11 AM(UTC)
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I noticed that the intake manifold number is the same as the engine number, 5393! Must be coincidence. It looks like proper stampings except the 3 has been added. The sequence pattern is gm3.

There's no T or anything else, only a c7 or c1 cast into the middle runner. Hey I'm pretty sure Flint intakes had only 1 number for the year like mine, like a36 for 3 Jan 1967 but didn't the ones made for here have the two digits for the year? I can't see it clear in the pic.

Did you know at Flint they made a years supply of manifolds with special number gm3t. They did this to move tooling from the 1966 year manifolds to develop tooling or sent the old tooling elsewhere, for the presumably 1967-1968 intakes to be made. This was only found recently by a survey of current owners. Interesting, as many Aussies comment about components never being stockpiled. So if they did they would probably have some indicator for quality and inventory control.

So, were the 390 blocks like mine made in Canada or just the heads. The T11 on the block doesn't stand for anything does it? If it did, I think it would be the "third shift".

So why don't we have records of ckd body and model codes here or is it a case of all of ours share McKinnons numbers? There's no evidence that these numbers are not original stampings either.

Edited by user Wednesday, 9 December 2015 11:30:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, 9 December 2015 12:06:16 PM(UTC)
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You'd think it has to be a co-incidence, but it is intriguing. If the manifold doesn't have a T on the manifold it has to be a Saginaw (Flint) casting I think. The numbers are not the normal GMH font, but as I said if it is a GMH engine the location that stamped them may not have had the normal GMH stamps.

Maybe put up a photo of the casting number and date code area. Flint and Tonawand did use different date codes at one stage but from memory by this time they were the same. Would have to check to be certain though.

It would make sense to make up a stock of the 1966 manifold as this was the last year of the old carb, 1967 on used Quadrajets. Some stuff was always stockpiled, 5.0L engines were stockpiled for example for use in VS once VT Commodore was finished, as VTII moved onto LS engines whereas VS stayed with 5.0L until 2000. There will be other instances of it too, like V8 engines for HG commercials and Chev SS for South Africa past HQ release.

I'd say your block is Canadian as well, it was assembled at McKinnon Industries. Is the date code on the side of the block (adjacent to starter motor) or at the rear near the casting number? McKinnon put it on the side.

I have no idea where the records are for the CKD cars. I have seen sales brochures but nothing else. McKinnon Industries was mechanical only. Oshawa was the assembly plants. In 1968 the CKD cars got GMH ID tags, but without the Lion. My 1957 Chevy was the same. So the 1967 cars will be the same too. There are model codes for them, I just don't have them.
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FE327CHEVY Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, 9 December 2015 8:16:05 PM(UTC)
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OK. I could have possible worked out a more plausible scenario after googling pics of pulled engines. I've found that some Aussie trucks, but only in around 67 had 327's. They also have blue rocker covers. So in checking Canadian truck sales, many have vins containing "539".

Using truck decoder info, 1 can be the only plant to use a 1 instead of letters and 1 can also mean " 3 ton". I think it's just 1 for chev. The 5 comes up as cab/chassis or most 60's models. I think the 3 might mean "5 ton" as is stated in decoder. The 9 might be a body style I reckon and perhaps the 3 was done after the customer built his rig because you buy a cab chassis bare sometimes. The code 03 and 09 might be without the 0. That's why it's short. I reckkon that's why it's got the strongest crank (5477 from memory or u know the short 77 one). And low compression.

See the water pump has the 2 inch spacer too. I cleaned up the starter and it had much more thick dirt than expected for a car too.

[/URL]

I'm thinking it's the Flint manifold cos its real well cast and has the single year date number. Can you confirm to me whether the tonawanda manifold has 2 numbers as in "67".
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#14 Posted : Wednesday, 9 December 2015 9:56:14 PM(UTC)
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For what its worth, I thought the arch shaped plug lead support bracket on the left rear of the inlet manifold looked like part number 7438716, as fitted to HTG engines. I believe it is Australia only and has the US plastic lead separator 2977555 clipped to the end of it.
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#15 Posted : Wednesday, 9 December 2015 10:59:43 PM(UTC)
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OK. It's definitely truck heads. Found a book and they are only listed as truck heads. The intake was new for 1967. I wonder if the tooling went somewhere else or wore out. They would have been gearing up for 350's perhaps. So I think I got a low numbers truck engine. Makes sense coming from Flint. Those heads make sense for export as McKinnon made 283's which this head was designed for.

So if you have contacts mate, can you try find out the trucks that were most popular. I bought the motor in country Vic.
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#16 Posted : Thursday, 10 December 2015 5:53:26 AM(UTC)
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My records show the heads as being from 327 210hp from 1962-1967, car or truck 1.72/1.5 valves. This is exactly what heads you'll find on a standard 210hp 327 in most Chevys of that period. There were 74.7cc heads used on '57-67 283 trucks but these were 3774684 heads, and the engines would be below 8:1 compression.

I'll find out for you about the single digit year code. It was applicable around '63 but I think it stopped by the later 60's and Tonawanda was the same by then. If yours doesn't have the T it will be cast at the Saginaw foundry.

I just looked up the 1967 GM Engineering specs for Trucks. There were 4 x truck 327 engines for 1967:

L30 275hp 10.5:1 (El Camino only) - flat tops with fuellie 64cc heads.
L79 325hp 11:1 (El Camino only) - lumpy tops with fuellie 64cc heads.
L30 High Torque 220hp 8.5:1, C10-C30 and K10-K20 - flat tops, 4BBL with 75cc heads.
L30 High Torque 185hp 8.0:1, C50-C60 - dish top pistons with 75cc heads.

The high torque engines have premium bearings, special cobalt-based alloy collating on the exhaust valves with rotators on the exhaust valves, forged steel crankshaft. All the engines share the same General Performance camshaft, same cam we got in GTS327 and GTS350. The water pumps used on the high torque 327's were higher flow 75gal/min @4000rpm vs the standard 57gal/min @4400rpm.

This engine may be the High Torque L30 220hp engine.

Edited by user Thursday, 10 December 2015 9:53:24 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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FE327CHEVY Offline
#17 Posted : Thursday, 10 December 2015 7:33:00 PM(UTC)
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Hey you can probably tell the guys on chevytalk about this heavy duty motor I have here that is likely similar to the the police and truck over there, rated at 240hp in 67 and 230hp in 68 for police and 220 for trucks. I need to know if they were same except for compression. Uk state 8.5 comp as you pointed out. But was an option in UK and Aussie cabs and impalas. But I'm not sure what cc those heads were that Richard referred to. I think mine is either a police or truck motor. I still wanna know if the police motor over there had blue flame type blue covers and id also like you to ask if my head was offered in UK etc, which I think must have. I think it was a durability and fleet fuel thing.



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#18 Posted : Thursday, 10 December 2015 7:39:01 PM(UTC)
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...could these 1960's 327 truck engines have been fitted to aircraft/ airfield tugs, or in a similar industrial application ?....

...for the life of me as a young teenager, I can't ever recall hearing a throbbing, big banger Chev (or otherwise) mid-range truck burbling around in the late 1960's ??
FE327CHEVY Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, 10 December 2015 9:30:28 PM(UTC)
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It was only available in 1 year here, 1967' started in US trucks the year before. I reckon the 3 was stamped after as they did those days for a reason. We're double row timing chains standard?
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#20 Posted : Friday, 11 December 2015 7:11:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FE327CHEVY Go to Quoted Post
Hey you can probably tell the guys on chevytalk about this heavy duty motor I have here that is likely similar to the the police and truck over there, rated at 240hp in 67 and 230hp in 68 for police and 220 for trucks. I need to know if they were same except for compression. Uk state 8.5 comp as you pointed out. But was an option in UK and Aussie cabs and impalas. But I'm not sure what cc those heads were that Richard referred to. I think mine is either a police or truck motor. I still wanna know if the police motor over there had blue flame type blue covers and id also like you to ask if my head was offered in UK etc, which I think must have. I think it was a durability and fleet fuel thing.





The 1968 L73 engine (what we got here) has 69cc heads (3917290), it was 250hp although GM data says they are 8.75:1 that cannot be correct - has to be at least 9.0:1.

The 1967 version of the engine I don't know - this is why i'm trying to find an original one. I do have an SAE power and torque curve for one though and they do peak at 240hp.

The 1966 version will be the same as the 1967 only 230hp (10hp less) due to the carby. After 1966 they Quadrajet was used and this will explain the 10hp jump from 230hp to 240hp.

The engine that gives the best clue for the 1967 engine is the 1968 truck L30, it is 8.5:1 (75cc heads). Same HD parts as the 1967 version except large journal. This is rated at 240hp. My guess based upon this is the 1967 will be 8.5x:1 with 75cc heads, gets rounded to 8.75:1. This 1968 engine is the closest in specification to the Canadian second type HK GTS327 engine and gives us a estimate of 240hp for it.

So in summary:

1966 4BBL 327 - 230hp, 8.5:1. Power capped by the carby.
1967 4BBL 327 - 240hp. Same engine as 1966 except new Quadrajet gives 10hp more.
1968 4BBL L73 327 - 250hp, 9:1. Increase in compression gives the 10hp gain.

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