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HK1837 Offline
#181 Posted : Sunday, 6 November 2016 11:15:53 AM(UTC)
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WB and Commodore have Net kW for dual and single exhaust but it is a waste of time as it differs between vehicles and is useless for comparison purposes. Good for the specific car but not across platforms.
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castellan Offline
#182 Posted : Monday, 7 November 2016 12:09:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
WB and Commodore have Net kW for dual and single exhaust but it is a waste of time as it differs between vehicles and is useless for comparison purposes. Good for the specific car but not across platforms.


WB and from the VB Commodore are in DIN KW and this is the way people can truly see what they are getting, SAE Gross figures are nonsense and are just backward old out dated rubbish.

Look here a 308 HT-G-Q with single exhaust, Joh Blow would have no idea that if he went the twin exhaust he would have more power.
I have talked about this for years with old blokes that reject that going bigger exhaust will give more power and how many have claimed that all it will do is make more noise, that's total BS, going twin does not have to make more noise at all.

I remember my mate had a stock 308 GTS auto Monaro with option twin exhaust and it went real well, but any 308 with the stock single exhaust was gutless as in reality and even a 253 could not be hosed off as such.

How many people ran about saying how gutless the 308 was in the 70' and 80's they were all just fools, a stock twin exhaust 308 easy out perform any stock 302 Falcon and 318 Valiant and 307 chev in reality and make even HQ 350 XB GT351 go run and hide.

The Net or DIN are truly respected power figures of reality, that HT GTS308 with 204HP Net shows it's true worth, a XC 5.8L has 217HP Net and the XB GT has 215HP Net and XB 351 2V has 183HP Net.
HK1837 Offline
#183 Posted : Monday, 7 November 2016 12:37:22 PM(UTC)
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SAE Gross are the only meaningful figures as far as I'm concerned as they are the only way to compare engines. DIN is for comparing cars. The only thing better is the original SAE Gross power/torque curves. Which I have for all HK-HQ SBC type engines.
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castellan Offline
#184 Posted : Tuesday, 8 November 2016 9:38:20 AM(UTC)
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Sure you can compare old chevy engines that way with some relativity.

Take a Holden Colorado KW if it were in SAE Gross you could be fooled into believing that the Auto and manual are the same tune, but the manual has been de tuned in torque to save the weak box not to mention it has a cut out to save the box when changing up gears, so the torque does not hit so hard directly.
A Gross figure could hide that, but a Net would find that.

A F100 302V8 is a good case against SAE Gross as how would anyone know that the 302 had be tampered with like it had been, the aussie 302 2 BBL in no way had the SAE Gross figures they claimed, hell the Holden 308 had a 4 BBL on it and Ford with the Falcon were claiming 240 250 HP it's just total nonsense not to mention early ones had a 2BBL Stromberg like the Holden 253 and then later on they get a bigger Carter 2BBL and then with the F100 you can have restrictor intake manifold that kills power even more so.

So without knowing what engine is what Joh Blow would not have a clue by looking at the SAE Gross figures and it's a fact that most even staunch ford men still don't have a clue that the pre ADR27A 302 V8's were in fact different in power, they are convinced that it's the same engine, but it's not, even the heads are different and bearings or valves.
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#185 Posted : Tuesday, 8 November 2016 12:00:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Sure you can compare old chevy engines that way with some relativity.

Take a Holden Colorado KW if it were in SAE Gross you could be fooled into believing that the Auto and manual are the same tune, but the manual has been de tuned in torque to save the weak box not to mention it has a cut out to save the box when changing up gears, so the torque does not hit so hard directly.
A Gross figure could hide that, but a Net would find that.

A F100 302V8 is a good case against SAE Gross as how would anyone know that the 302 had be tampered with like it had been, the aussie 302 2 BBL in no way had the SAE Gross figures they claimed, hell the Holden 308 had a 4 BBL on it and Ford with the Falcon were claiming 240 250 HP it's just total nonsense not to mention early ones had a 2BBL Stromberg like the Holden 253 and then later on they get a bigger Carter 2BBL and then with the F100 you can have restrictor intake manifold that kills power even more so.

So without knowing what engine is what Joh Blow would not have a clue by looking at the SAE Gross figures and it's a fact that most even staunch ford men still don't have a clue that the pre ADR27A 302 V8's were in fact different in power, they are convinced that it's the same engine, but it's not, even the heads are different and bearings or valves.


If that is the case then Ford are not quoting proper SAE Gross. SAE Gross (going from memory) in GM speak is the GM1 test. It is the engine on a dyno in a controlled environment (temperature, pressure and humidity), running controlled (lab quality) fuel, no air cleaner, running the dyno's exhaust out of the factory exhaust manifolds, dyno radiator but closed cooling system, alternator connected and spinning but not charging and with the timing optimised (set as per specs). The controlled environment and fuel are so that tests are repeatable and comparable.
So under these test conditions you can accurately compare engines, just pick the HT-HQ 240hp, HJ 250hp and HX 216hp. All that has changed is the pistons, cam and timing from HQ-HJ, then from HJ-HX it EGR ports in heads, intake, timing and carby mods. So you can accurately compare them. If you start sticking them in cars you have different alternators, different air cleaners, different exhaust systems with different tailpipe sizes etc to confuse the issue.
You also see it with the L79 327. In a Chevelle it is 300hp, in a Corvette 325hp. Identical engines, just one has restrictive log type 2" manifolds. This shows up in the SAE Gross measurements.

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Balfizar Offline
#186 Posted : Tuesday, 8 November 2016 12:50:25 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
a Torana was not a Holden model and the VC-VK were HDT cars not Holden models.


We'll have to agree to disagree on those points.

Although some Torana models didn't actually have the word "Holden' anywhere on some model Toranas, they did have the normal Lion emblem inside & out.

Unlike the HQ onward Statesman models where GM-H actively hid the name Holden & just promoted them as 'Statesman by GM', all Toranas were advertised & promoted as being Holden Toranas. In the case of the L34, the LH sales brochure is clearly titled Holden Torana 6/V8.

With HDT, AFAIK Brock didn't gain manufacturer's status until VH, so the VC HDT Commodore is really a Holden. Its GM-H sales package number is V8Q.

All pedantic, I know, but good for discussion.

Dr Terry



HDT Secondary manufacturing status was granted in January 1985, but there was interim approved in October 1984. So VK's were the first SMS plated HDT.
I am not sure anyone knows what was the first plated VK but around build #1632 (Feb 1985) would not be too far off the mark. Filtering through GM/GMH/HMC and the sales positioning ethos, badged /non badged and the evolution of VIN/Tags to Guess was it a "Holden" is just as interesting as the original question. If not open to interpretation. Perhaps a chapter in your next book Terry.
castellan Offline
#187 Posted : Tuesday, 8 November 2016 1:56:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Sure you can compare old chevy engines that way with some relativity.

Take a Holden Colorado KW if it were in SAE Gross you could be fooled into believing that the Auto and manual are the same tune, but the manual has been de tuned in torque to save the weak box not to mention it has a cut out to save the box when changing up gears, so the torque does not hit so hard directly.
A Gross figure could hide that, but a Net would find that.

A F100 302V8 is a good case against SAE Gross as how would anyone know that the 302 had be tampered with like it had been, the aussie 302 2 BBL in no way had the SAE Gross figures they claimed, hell the Holden 308 had a 4 BBL on it and Ford with the Falcon were claiming 240 250 HP it's just total nonsense not to mention early ones had a 2BBL Stromberg like the Holden 253 and then later on they get a bigger Carter 2BBL and then with the F100 you can have restrictor intake manifold that kills power even more so.

So without knowing what engine is what Joh Blow would not have a clue by looking at the SAE Gross figures and it's a fact that most even staunch ford men still don't have a clue that the pre ADR27A 302 V8's were in fact different in power, they are convinced that it's the same engine, but it's not, even the heads are different and bearings or valves.


If that is the case then Ford are not quoting proper SAE Gross. SAE Gross (going from memory) in GM speak is the GM1 test. It is the engine on a dyno in a controlled environment (temperature, pressure and humidity), running controlled (lab quality) fuel, no air cleaner, running the dyno's exhaust out of the factory exhaust manifolds, dyno radiator but closed cooling system, alternator connected and spinning but not charging and with the timing optimised (set as per specs). The controlled environment and fuel are so that tests are repeatable and comparable.
So under these test conditions you can accurately compare engines, just pick the HT-HQ 240hp, HJ 250hp and HX 216hp. All that has changed is the pistons, cam and timing from HQ-HJ, then from HJ-HX it EGR ports in heads, intake, timing and carby mods. So you can accurately compare them. If you start sticking them in cars you have different alternators, different air cleaners, different exhaust systems with different tailpipe sizes etc to confuse the issue.
You also see it with the L79 327. In a Chevelle it is 300hp, in a Corvette 325hp. Identical engines, just one has restrictive log type 2" manifolds. This shows up in the SAE Gross measurements.


SAE Gross is SAE Gross regardless.
I think it's about what they can get away with at the time, as in the USA they were fed up with Gross and made it mandatory to be Net in 1972, sadly people get all mixed up with the power ratings, it would of been better if Net came a year or 2 before the pollution laws so they had more of a handle on it all.

How much Gross HP does a VY SS Commodore make ? or a 6.2L VF SS.
HK1837 Offline
#188 Posted : Tuesday, 8 November 2016 8:15:36 PM(UTC)
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Exactly, hence why the actual car net figures are useless! You cannot make a meaningful comparison between engines which is what you want Gross figures for. In the end all we are interested in is the actual engine's potential, not what it gives you with a pissy pea shooter exhaust. I don't give a rats how choked up a single exhaust HJ 308 or tiny tailpipe dual exhaust LH 308 outputs. I want to know what makes the engine better or worse that what came before or after it.

I get DIN today if you want to compare a V6 and V8 Commodore to a Camry or Falcon.
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castellan Offline
#189 Posted : Thursday, 10 November 2016 1:57:19 PM(UTC)
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Some way into the end of the HX the ADR27A tune got somewhat better, just like mid XC got somewhat better as well.
Just how the advertised HP or torque figures may read, it don't tell the full story as well.
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