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HK1837 Offline
#161 Posted : Wednesday, 2 November 2016 12:40:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Why do people look up to cars like XY GT-HO for example as tagged a Bathurst thing, they are not, many people bought such a car just to drive on the roads, it was a fast car and there is no big deal about the car in reality anyone could make one up out of a XY Falcon.

When I see a XY GT-HO I see it for what it is, nothing to do with Bathurst or racing at all and anyone who idolises the Bathurst thing is just pissing into the wind. Sure they had to build X amount for the racing credentials but that has got bugger all to do with who buys the cars off the showroom floor.

I see the cars for what they are and that's it.

I knew a mate with a VC Brock from new and never thought of it as a Bathurst car at all, in fact it was just a gutless slug.
The VH Group 3 performed well but no racing car.
The VK Group A could be classed as a greater performance car then all the other Holden's before it and then the VN Group A is the next true performance car.
So we have Holden HK GTS 327, HT GTS 350, HG GTS 350 then the VH Group 3, VK Group A, VN-P Group A, VR-S GTS, Torana LC-J XU-1. These cars were the ducks nuts in there day to drive, that no one could snicker about being gutless crap.

The Torana L34 does not count as Joe public could not buy the car off the showroom floor.


I agree with most of that, although the GT-HO was built purposely to win the 500 mile event. It was Ford's "win at all costs" mentality at the time. The original XR GT was built for the event as well after Ford found out about GMH's new coupe and thought that GMH were building for racing. The only one of GMH's performance cars of the day not built for Series Production and particularly the 500 mile event was the GTS327. It was an image car from the outset, but GMH did change the suspension at the last minute after Ford won the 1967 500, and they decided to try the car in the 1968 event. Yes the HG was never intended to race, but the HG series itself was never intended to be, it was a stopgap second facelift of the HT to see GMH through until the new US styled HQ (the cancelled HQ was meant to replace the HT and was a reshaped HK).

You are spot on with the VK Group A, it was a weapon. It was the first GMH product post HT-HG GTS350M to be as quick (or quicker) as those cars. The VH Group 3 and the VR GTS etc aren't really Holdens, but the Group A'a are, but a VH Group 3 with the optional 180kW engine (not the HO engine or the standard engine) is just shaded by about 10-15hp at the treads by the GTS350M.


I don't see it in of as built for the event, although that maybe true in one point.
I see the XR GT etc as it's just as a true drivers car, it's just something I would aspire to buy in the day and to me the reason I would buy a car in the day would have nothing to do with Bathurst at all, although Bathurst back in the day was a real big thing that most Aussies would watch and talk about and relate to some how and that the selling point was not in the GT but the average hack Falcon sales would be up due to a Falcon win, so old Joe Blow would be some how influenced to by his Falcon 500 with 200ci 6 CYL.

I don't see a LC-J XU-1 win having any influence on me at all, I would buy the GTS Monaro or GT any day over that bucket any day.

If the Bathurst race showed that the Fords or Holden's were blowing up gearboxes or engines etc well that may of influence me to buy the other make.

I don't see the HG as anything but the next model, sure you don't have the options of 12 bolt diff but so what if it's street driven, who drives with lower ratios than 3.55 anyway and with such a GTS350 would be lucky to push only 110MPH flat out.

The XW GT-HO Phase 2 and XY GT-HO Phase 3 were just a car for red blooded people to buy for the extra power for the highway to get past the old slug trucks that littered the highways back then, plodding along 50MPH at best and then down to 10MPH on the hills, that's a true story and that's what it was like, so you would come up to such a case and if you seen the opportunity you thought f this ! I am out of here and go for it and pass 10 or so cars and the truck, and that's what makes it a nice enjoyable trip, and that's the difference of having a boring trip plodding along with no hope of getting past all the slow shitty crap.Shhh Angel


The GT-HO was built to win the 500 primarily (without the 500 the GT-HO would never have been built), and although the HT GTS350 was an updated HK GTS327 image car, the HT was built with the 500 in mind. Harry Firth designed the GT-HO before Ford and him parted ways, but Ford didn't build the car to the spec he designed it as and he knew it. This is why he had Hooroo Superoo and Ho-Ho-Ho stickers on the rear bars of the GTS350's in 1969 as he knew the GT-HO he designed was a superior race car to the HDT GTS350's but not what Ford actually built. The whole concept of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" is why the 500 was so important to Ford and why it became important to GMH as they saw the results that Ford achieved after 1967.

I essentially agree with the XU-1, it wouldn't make me want one either, at least not when there was a 350ci HQ GTS coupe and sedan available.

The HG is actually less than the next model in GTS350 terms. Nothing really changed with the HG GTS350M over the HT other than cosmetics, whereas the rest of the range had significant changes. All it was is HT GTS350 engines and transmissions that were meant to last until the end of HT, but HT got cut short as GMH didn't want the HT to run for as long as it had to especially as the HQ also blew out. They had to make a semi second facelift (the first of its kind for GMH). The key point is those last special build HG GTS350 manual engines from Canada, the predicted number of manual HT GTS350's to be built and last for the HT Series run would have lasted until GMH needed the Canadian engines in HG - that is the original series end for HT. The 12 bolts were made available through Nasco for HK-HT as you say, they weren't really optional as such, you had to buy the completed car and the 12-bolt was a Nasco order which had a 3-4 month lead time. To date I think there is only 3 proven cars known to get them, the Beechey HT and the two HK Rally cars. There would have been more but not many as the rear axle was a massive cost compared to the whole car.

The PhaseII was built after the GT-HO didn't win in 1969, and luckily for all of us I think, Ford won in 1970 as I doubt they would have continued pouring money into the sport if they'd been beaten by the little 6cyl LC. Another few laps in 1970 though and the LC probably would have won as McPhee had already slowed so that Moffat's failing car could win and then McPhee's car developed a miss (this is all reported as fact in motoring magazines of the day). Don Holland was about half a lap behind and catching up quickly. How good would it have been though if GMH stuck with the GTS350 for one more year, meaning an extra year of development on the GTS350 and better rubber available? 1970 would have then been a cracker of a race. The actual 1970 race time being slower and the fastest lap being slower than 1969 tells you the GTS350's should have won easily, but that is speculation only!


How can anyone say that the HG GTS350 was a less a car than the HT GTS350 off the showroom floor as no one as such got the 12 bolt diff and all is truly just really the same same but for the last McKinnon 350 and that was just luck as far as the owner would have a faster car, let alone the fastest GMH car they made for Joh Blow till the VK Groupe A.
So that made them lot of last HG GTS350 Holden Monaro's the best ever off the showroom floor to hit the highway on and that makes them the king of the road Holden and a person who owned one of such cars need not apologise to anyone, that this HG was the best ever.

In South Africa they must of got a lot of the fastest 350's in the SS350 Monaro's as they are being made up to 1972, or do they end up just get the HQ 350 8.5:1 type of slug.


I don't think anyone that knows anything about Holdens can truthfully say the HG GTS350 manual was a lesser car than the HT. The difference is only cosmetic other than most HG GTS350M got a 3.08 rear axle whereas HT was 3.36 standard. The HG GTS350 auto did however had softer suspension than the HT equivalent. As you say those final HG GTS350 manuals got a more powerful engine, but it was a marginal improvement in the scheme of things. Still the most powerful GMH vehicle though until the VK GroupA as stated.

I'm not 100% sure which 350 engine went into the Chevrolet SS, but i'll ask. Not sure if that info is actually nailed yet either. All of the parts for them were put together into the body and mechanical packs prior to the end of HG production in Australia - all 308's in them are early 1971 HG spec engines. Almost certainly they'll be a 1970 L48 spec engine (1969-1970 L48 are essentially the same 300hp 10.25:1 engine) but what I don't know is if they are the normal production L48 out of Tonawanda or the special build 350 engine from St Catharine's.

Edited by user Wednesday, 2 November 2016 12:42:46 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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HK1837 Offline
#162 Posted : Wednesday, 2 November 2016 5:24:03 PM(UTC)
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Chev SS are all St Catharines engines
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castellan Offline
#163 Posted : Wednesday, 2 November 2016 6:56:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
At the end of the day the dude who bought a car in the show room is all the really truly matters and Bathurst is Bathurst.
I don't give a toss about the race perspective, when buying a car, it's what do I need that comes into play, Bathurst is a shit track to drive on boring as bat shit compared to other roads in Australia to hook into on.
I see it this way
XR GT vs HR 186S, I would have the GT any day.
XT GT vs HK GTS327, GTS327 has more power and is faster.
XW GT-HO 351 Windsor vs GTS350, well it comes down to if you want 2 or 4 doors.
XW GT-HO Phase 2 vs GTS350, the HO is much more power and a faster car to drive.
XY GT-HO Phase 3 vs GTS350, the HO is faster again.
XA GT vs HQ GTS350, the GT is more power and faster.
XB GT vs HQ GTS350, the GT is more power and faster.
This all on the open road in the day and it's a fact.


I understand you not caring about their race ability, but that is what many of them were built for and the sole purpose they existed. Without the race requirements there would be no GT-HO, no XU1, no E38/E49 Charger.

XR yes, agree.
HK yes, agree.
HT GTS350 is almost a dead match for a GT-HO, might even be slightly quicker. Standard, properly tuned cars I'm talking about. Ask anyone who owned one new in the day how many GT-HO's they red light raced and beat.
The PhaseII vs GTS350 comparison holds together well, but you can't compare the PhaseIII to a HG GTS350 as the HG was finished as the PhaseIII appeared. And if you do compare say the last HG GTS350 against the first PhaseIII (as there was a small window of overlap) they are all but equal in 0-100mph and 1/4 mile times. Again I'm talking dead standard cars, not modified. Sure there are other ways to compare cars, highway as you say. Peter Robinson and Mel Nichols reckoned the HG GTS350 was probably a better car for long distance & high speed when they tested them, but they were comparing them to an XW not XY as the XY hadn't appeared yet.
Same for the XB GT against a HQ GTS350, the HQ GTS350 manual was finished before the XB appeared, and what was left were the auto only dodgy 1974 spec choked up 350 engines. The XA holds up easily against a HQ GTS350 especially the 4V versions!




I agree with all that mainly, but for the sole purpose to race I don't, as it's true that the such cars got the go ahead to be built for the racing point, but most of such cars were not bought of the showroom floor to be raced.

The GT Phase 2 and 3 in the day took a bit to hook up and get going with the shit tyres over the 1/4 mile but I am sure past the 1/4 and over the 1000m you will find the HO just power on.

What I seen of the HO's was the front end sitting up real high and the arse end real sat real low, they look stupid and I am sure the GTS350 Monaro was as Mel says.

Them Falcons handled like a bucket of shit, it was the rear springs that were just so shitfull at high speeds, they would wobble about over 180KM/H coming through bends and the Monaro's were no were as that bad, you could get the front of the Falcons to be very good if you know what you are doing setting it up, but the Monaro's front end was not as good as it was a understeering pig in tight corners.

XA GT auto from mid 1972 vs HQ GTS350 auto, you have only a 351 2V with 4 BBL to deal with and from Sep 1973 the XB is only a 351 2V with 4 BBL.

I do believe that with the 351 4V when they went to the 4V dot heads they lost some power as well, Ford Australia are full of it with there spec saying that the GT is 300 HP gross with the 4V dot engine when the USA say this engines is only 285HP from then on, it's the same engine as the USA one.
And who knows what the XA GT auto 351 2V 4BBL truly is, they say 290HP Eh? no it can't be true.
castellan Offline
#164 Posted : Wednesday, 2 November 2016 7:50:58 PM(UTC)
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St Catherines 350 in the SS Chevy Monaro's and they all run 3.08 diff, I believe the 3.08 ratio would be better than a 3.36
That would make the South African SS Monaro's the best of all then with that engine.
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#165 Posted : Wednesday, 2 November 2016 8:09:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
St Catherines 350 in the SS Chevy Monaro's and they all run 3.08 diff, I believe the 3.08 ratio would be better than a 3.36
That would make the South African SS Monaro's the best of all then with that engine.


Why would they be better than the last lot of HG GTS350? It is the same engine. A Chevrolet SS is not a Monaro though, although they are all HG GTS350M type bodies regardless of the engine fitted.

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castellan Offline
#166 Posted : Thursday, 3 November 2016 7:20:53 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
St Catherines 350 in the SS Chevy Monaro's and they all run 3.08 diff, I believe the 3.08 ratio would be better than a 3.36
That would make the South African SS Monaro's the best of all then with that engine.


Why would they be better than the last lot of HG GTS350? It is the same engine. A Chevrolet SS is not a Monaro though, although they are all HG GTS350M type bodies regardless of the engine fitted.



Well they are not better then them, but as they stand they are the better performing car as to ours then as seen from them overall.Love Drool d'oh! Whistle

Funny they are all 350 from St Cat though from 1971-3 they would of had X amount of cars to build and orders X amount of 308's in and X amount of 350 in, and maybe the shipping of the St Cat 350 is cheaper for them in Soud Africa.Think
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#167 Posted : Thursday, 3 November 2016 12:06:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
St Catherines 350 in the SS Chevy Monaro's and they all run 3.08 diff, I believe the 3.08 ratio would be better than a 3.36
That would make the South African SS Monaro's the best of all then with that engine.


Why would they be better than the last lot of HG GTS350? It is the same engine. A Chevrolet SS is not a Monaro though, although they are all HG GTS350M type bodies regardless of the engine fitted.



Well they are not better then them, but as they stand they are the better performing car as to ours then as seen from them overall.Love Drool d'oh! Whistle

Funny they are all 350 from St Cat though from 1971-3 they would of had X amount of cars to build and orders X amount of 308's in and X amount of 350 in, and maybe the shipping of the St Cat 350 is cheaper for them in Soud Africa.Think


All SBC engines from the last of the HG 350 manuals through to the last HQ 350 engines in 9/74 were St Catharine's engines. Every SBC engine that went into a Holden, Statesman, Chevrolet etc. whilst ever GMH were using SBC's were a St Catharine's engine. They all came here and either went into cars or went into the mechanical pack for a CKD vehicle. The only non GMH provided engines (and almost certainly mechanicals) that GM South Africa used in GMH design bodies were those they built locally, afaik this is only the 250ci 6cyl engines. They weren't orders, it was all predictive. It was predicted how many Chevrolet SS would be sold in each driveline configuration so that is how many body packs and how many mechanical packs were created. But that is no different to any other such stuff, like the 1968 Chevrolet Impalas and Pontiac Parisiennes - those were all bought over here as CKD pack pairs for each car based upon predictions. The number of 350 manual HQ's made was a prediction and all engines were sourced in 1971. Same for HT-HG 350 auto engines. HK GTS327 would have been the same also but circumstances caused them to build more earlier than they wanted to so had to get more engines.

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castellan Offline
#168 Posted : Thursday, 3 November 2016 3:10:47 PM(UTC)
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Funny all the Chev SS were 10.25:1 Cat engines, I should of said then.
And yes they must of just got one big batch of 350 shipped in.
And the same from Holden with the 308, but I have seen the engine numbers to build date are in no order and a long way out that such makes that so maybe can't be true.

I thought our HQ350 were 3 different shipment dates and the 307 were not all in one shipment to Aus.

The Valiant 340 V8 would of had to come in at least 2 shipment dates.

And the Full imported Ford GT 4V 351C had to be 3 shipment dates or more.
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#169 Posted : Thursday, 3 November 2016 8:03:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Funny all the Chev SS were 10.25:1 Cat engines, I should of said then.
And yes they must of just got one big batch of 350 shipped in.
And the same from Holden with the 308, but I have seen the engine numbers to build date are in no order and a long way out that such makes that so maybe can't be true.

I thought our HQ350 were 3 different shipment dates and the 307 were not all in one shipment to Aus.

The Valiant 340 V8 would of had to come in at least 2 shipment dates.

And the Full imported Ford GT 4V 351C had to be 3 shipment dates or more.


We haven't totally cracked the code so to speak with those last L48-ish Canadian 350 engines. Until that engine and those heads, McKinnon Industries (which became St Catharine's) didn't do performance engines or even moderate performance engines which is why the GTS327 and GTS350 engines were all Tonawanda sourced. They did bread and butter mainly 2BBL like the 307. After GM rationalisation in 1969 it changed a bit but suddenly we have not only the final HG L48 engine, it also has the better heads with the bigger intake ports. Some US based people believe that the 3973370 heads on the final HG 350 engine are spare part heads only, and also possibly into some Canadian assembled Chevrolets. Whatever it is we got it here.

Holden engine numbers to build date mean SFA. If you look at enough there is very little correlation. Remember you are looking at 5 local assembly plants all working to different schedules and an engine is an engine. If there are 500 202's in storage for the next 6 day's production they used them as they needed them, and more were added everyday. Numbers jump all over the place. Add into that different plants compliance at different times so build dates vary wildly.

HQ 350 engines are way, way more than 3 shipments. There were 1000's of them used and they came over in constant batches. Only the manual engines are all early ones. They never got any more after 1971. 307's are like HQ 350 engines, they came over in multiple batches. Only the GTS327 seems to have distinct assembly dates and only in the Tonawanda engines. These are in 3 x different batches.

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castellan Offline
#170 Posted : Friday, 4 November 2016 12:29:14 PM(UTC)
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308 Imported to South Africa would come from only one plant I would think, I can't find the numbers now but they were like a year apart in prefix number I think.

I think it's about mid 1969 that Ford imported the LTD Galaxie from USA and converted in Aus but this has to do with Tax import stuff being a better deals I think, so they did not bother with the Canada imports stuff as much as they once did.
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#171 Posted : Friday, 4 November 2016 12:40:17 PM(UTC)
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When we look into the HK 327 bit, as this lot where made into the HT series there must be a reason.
The 350 engines could not be had at the time ?

The word is that the orders were taken for the GTS 327HK and that's why, but that does not happen in reality as it's just to bad, hears the HT 350GTS for you and it's in the contract deal they can do such.
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#172 Posted : Friday, 4 November 2016 2:18:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
308 Imported to South Africa would come from only one plant I would think, I can't find the numbers now but they were like a year apart in prefix number I think.

I think it's about mid 1969 that Ford imported the LTD Galaxie from USA and converted in Aus but this has to do with Tax import stuff being a better deals I think, so they did not bother with the Canada imports stuff as much as they once did.


All Holden engines came from Fisherman's Bend and had their engine numbers stamped there. But when they were used has no pattern. Especially for CKD packs. GM South Africa would have just assembled them to a schedule plus retail orders, and they were done over a number of years so it would be a lucky dip which one got built when.

Edited by user Friday, 4 November 2016 2:25:33 PM(UTC)  | Reason: spelling

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#173 Posted : Friday, 4 November 2016 2:24:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
When we look into the HK 327 bit, as this lot where made into the HT series there must be a reason.
The 350 engines could not be had at the time ?

The word is that the orders were taken for the GTS 327HK and that's why, but that does not happen in reality as it's just to bad, hears the HT 350GTS for you and it's in the contract deal they can do such.


HK's all finished at the same time, none were actually made by design into volume HT production (there might be the odd delayed finisher here or there but not planned as such). Yes there were still HK's for sale alongside HT especially GTS327 from what I hear. GTS350 was delayed for a very good reason and it was outside GMH's control. That story isn't mine to tell though, it'll be in another's book due in the near future.

GMH built the first HT 81837 (1-A) early on with a 327 engine as they didn't have a 350 yet, but the first GTS350's were Pagewood build and the delay as mentioned above was not planned, they were supposed to be released with the rest of the HT range.

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#174 Posted : Friday, 4 November 2016 4:54:50 PM(UTC)
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I found them South African numbers.
1972 SS Chevy VIN 577106 308H34522
1972 SS Chevy VIN 557992 308H39539
That 5017 engines between them, it must not be the original engine in it because the Vin is arse about or the engines was back in the lucky dip.
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#175 Posted : Friday, 4 November 2016 5:40:24 PM(UTC)
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There could also be lots of 253's built in between the 308 engines for HG's in Australia. Remember HG were assembled until around 10 or 11/71 and all 253 or 308 engines for them were built before HQ engine production so they were stockpiled too.
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#176 Posted : Saturday, 5 November 2016 6:16:29 PM(UTC)
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Is it right to say the oil filler was on a neck at the front of the block on the HT-HG 253-308's, and the filler was on the rocker cover on the HQ onwards. ??
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#177 Posted : Saturday, 5 November 2016 8:03:05 PM(UTC)
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Yes, HT-HG oil filler is on the timing case.
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#178 Posted : Sunday, 6 November 2016 7:49:50 AM(UTC)
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HT-G Heads have a different part number as well to the HQ.
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#179 Posted : Sunday, 6 November 2016 7:58:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
HT-G Heads have a different part number as well to the HQ.


They are different heads. missing the uppermost accessory hole on the end. Main differences HG to HQ are:

Heads.
Sump/Pickup.
Engine mount adapters.
Timing case cover drilled for oil filler.
Rocker cover not pressed for oil filler.
Heater hose point drilled and tapped into front water crossover in valley cover.

There is probably a few others too that I can't recall at the moment, plus fiddly things like vacuum tower for HQ auto has the top point for trimatic vacuum, carby number is different etc.

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
castellan Offline
#180 Posted : Sunday, 6 November 2016 10:55:01 AM(UTC)
castellan

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South Africa has a better road testing magazines than the backward Aussie ones we have, at least they quoted the 308 in the GTS and SS in SAE Gross 240HP and in Net HP at 204.2HP

I will have to try to find what the single exhaust 308 Net HP is now.
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