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wbute Offline
#61 Posted : Saturday, 24 December 2016 8:23:00 PM(UTC)
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Talking about unusual Holdens, wouldn't factory fitted 5litre WB commercials fit in this category exactly the same as the 350 HQ Kingswood?
Dr Terry Offline
#62 Posted : Saturday, 24 December 2016 9:25:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Talking about unusual Holdens, wouldn't factory fitted 5litre WB commercials fit in this category exactly the same as the 350 HQ Kingswood?


Absolutely, but the difference is these would be very easily identified & verified by the L31 etc. on the body ID plate & their unique engine prefix.

I know about these from personal experience.

Way back in 1977 I purchased the only new car that I've ever owned, an HZ L31/M41One-Tonner B06 (Ambulance Pack). Around late 1980 it was stolen & I thought that I'd never see it again. I went through all the usual police report nonsense & made an insurance claim. Then I made enquiries about its replacement, which by this time was a WB One-Tonner. I tried to order a L31/M38 WB One-Tonner but the dealer wouldn't have a bar of it. Even though I knew many people that worked in that particular dealership, there was no way I was going to get an L31/M38 WB One-Tonner.

Luckily my HZ was recovered some 3 weeks later & I still own it to this day.

2 months later a parts delivery vehicle from that same dealership came in & I couldn't help but notice that it was a brand new WB B06 One-Tonner. I went over & asked the driver if I could could have a look at his new car.

Guess what, it was an L31/M38 !!

I've since seen several other WB L31 commercials, all with L31 on the body ID plate, but most importantly with an engine prefix which reads WTxxxxx, not 11WTxxxxx which is what a regular L31 Statesman's engine prefix would read.

In the same vein as the Bob Jane HQ 350 Premiers & Utes, it's not what you know, it's WHO you know, that's important in life.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
wbute Offline
#63 Posted : Saturday, 24 December 2016 10:08:03 PM(UTC)
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Would dearly love to find a WB L31 one day. WT must be one of the rarest engine prefixes?
HK1837 Offline
#64 Posted : Sunday, 25 December 2016 5:19:02 AM(UTC)
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It would be. I've seen one, a yellow L31 M40 WB tonner.
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we wreck 81837s only Offline
#65 Posted : Sunday, 25 December 2016 9:06:12 PM(UTC)
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Getting all to hard this stuff, can't we just enjoy the old cars?
HK1837 Offline
#66 Posted : Monday, 26 December 2016 9:59:53 AM(UTC)
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Everyone enjoys them in different ways Frank. Understanding the cars, how they were ordered and built is fascinating to some and an important part of the history of not only GMH but Ford, Chrysler and Toyota in Australia.
I find myself today getting more excited about an unusual option on a lower spec car than on a GTS. If I find a bucket seat, 4spd HK Belmont sedan it attracts me more than a GTS327 today. Not saying the Belmont is worth much or that I want it, just the fact it existed and still exists is fascinating. There was one turn up about a year ago on Ebay near to Albury. It was a HK Belmont sedan, blue with red trim. Was a 186 M20, with bucket seats and stick shifter. I spend more time looking at the pictures, and discussing the car than I did for any 81837 that year. The other was the Silver Mink HK Kingswood ute that turned up for sale in QLD, shouldn't exist but it did!

Edited by user Monday, 26 December 2016 10:04:18 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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bazza30555 Offline
#67 Posted : Monday, 26 December 2016 5:43:53 PM(UTC)
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l agree HK, the information that has comes out of this and other topics makes for interesting reading for the 99% of us that aren't Holden experts
HGV8 Offline
#68 Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2016 8:30:03 AM(UTC)
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Have to agree, when I see an old Holden that's a little different from the norm I tend to have a good 2nd look.
A HK kingswood caught my attention Back in the mid 90's. A fella I bought a HR off owned it. Looked like a bread and butter HK until he pointed out it was factory fitted with a 186S, bucket seats, full console auto and power windows.
Until then I had no idea a HK kingswood could be ordered with power windows.
j.williams
commodorenut Offline
#69 Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2016 9:19:51 AM(UTC)
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I worked with a guy from '95-'02 who had a cream HK Kingswood sedan similar to that - bucket seats & power windows - the 4 switches in a bank on the driver's door.
Started life as a 6, but he'd since put a V8 into it, Premier front clip, fluted guards, Monaro boot strip & all the usual 80s add-ons like the jelly-bean mags, foxtail & fluffy dice.

Having Commodore knowledge, where only the top models could get power windows as an option or standard, and harness differences by VK meant only Berlina & up could have them, I thought he'd also done the power windows in it as well, but he told me it was his Dad's car originally, and it was ordered new that way.

After that period of my life I learnt how "open" Holden were with the options in that era, and how many combinations were possible. You can easily see why that freedom didn't last.
Cheers,

Mick
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#70 Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2016 11:47:15 AM(UTC)
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Power windows were only available on HK and HT Kingswood, until HQ when an Kingswood with XW8 or XV4 could get them. Probably one of the reasons why they had Premier door cards.

Mick, as Kingswood would be considered level 2 in the Holden range, when did level 2 Commodore become available with power windows?

Warren
commodorenut Offline
#71 Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2016 2:25:58 PM(UTC)
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Warren - first mid-level model where it was offered was VH - the SL/X could be optioned up with windows & locks. (All VH could have the trip comp though).

VK & VL continued this - the SL & Exec had a basic harness with no provision for power windows in the wiring between the fuse box & cabin. Dealer fitted power options on Berlina plugged into an 8-pin plug above the glovebox (calais had most power options standard, and also had this plug). This plug was only in Berlina/Calais, and some VL V8 base models, and linked up to a 9-pin plug in the bottom of the underbonnet fuse box.
Cheers,

Mick
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Dr Terry Offline
#72 Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2016 4:49:25 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post

Mick, as Kingswood would be considered level 2 in the Holden range, when did level 2 Commodore become available with power windows?


AFAIK power windows were always an option (later std) on the level 2 (SL/X, Berlina) Commodore.

There is a blurred line between what you would call 'level 2' in a Commodore vs level 2 in HK-HZ.

If we refer to them as follows:-

Belmont (M) - level 1
Kingswood/Monaro (N) - level 2
Premier/Monaro LS (P) - level 3

Does that equate to:-

Commodore SL (K) - level 1
Commodore SL/X, Berlina (L) - level 2
Commodore SL/E, Calais (X) - level 3

(I realise that VB/VC, K & L trims are badged differently, but you get the idea)

To me the Belmont equates to the A9K Commodore, while level 1 Commodore was trimmed & equipped to KIngswood (M) level, SL/X Berlina was the equivalent of the Premier, LS (P) level.

The SL/E-Calais (X) level was much higher than a Premier, even in VB.

Dr Terry
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HK1837 Offline
#73 Posted : Tuesday, 27 December 2016 9:15:43 PM(UTC)
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Is that a true comparison Terry? I'd be tending (and correct me if i'm wrong) in comparing only HZ to VB as in:

HZ Kingswood (option A9K in sedan and wagon) essentially equating to A9K VB. I thought this was slightly better equipped than Belmont sedan and wagon from HX?

HZ Kingswood SL sedan and wagon essentially being like VB SL.

HZ Premier being similar to VB SL/E but not quite. Maybe one of the SL option packages? As you say the VB SL/E is probably somewhat of a orphan initially in that it was like a throwback to 1971/2 HQ LS where the car although it presented as a "Premier" it was really a higher spec than Premier but not quite a Deville in appointments.

Edited by user Tuesday, 27 December 2016 9:17:18 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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commodorenut Offline
#74 Posted : Wednesday, 28 December 2016 6:57:34 AM(UTC)
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I see where Terry is going with this, and I have to agree with how he's thinking.
You don't just compare Commodore at the time to the SWB sedans.
The VB SL/E sat amongst the LWB models - higher than Deville with it's equipment, but not quite at Caprice prestige level.
Remember the HZ SL/E with the same badge - that's where I'd sit VB SL/E.

It brought in a new wave of standard equipment levels that saw it position models in a different way, and the buying public had to learn this.

More recently Holden tried it again - but not properly - with the VE release by dropping nearly all the names down a peg - Berlina effectively took over the Acclaim role, Calais took over Berlina, and Calais V was the traditional Calais. Same way SS took over SV8, and SS-V became what was previously known as the SS. It was supposed to make people feel they were getting more for their money, but all it did was create confusion & ultimately led to lacklustre sales of some trim levels.
Cheers,

Mick
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Dr Terry Offline
#75 Posted : Wednesday, 28 December 2016 8:38:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
As you say the VB SL/E is probably somewhat of a orphan initially in that it was like a throwback to 1971/2 HQ LS where the car although it presented as a "Premier" it was really a higher spec than Premier but not quite a Deville in appointments.


I don't quite understand what you mean by the VB SL/E 'orphan' comment.

My take on the Monaro LS is that it is truly the coupe version of the Premier.

The LS only existed for 2 series (or 3 if you count the '73 HQ update)

To begin with they both use the same P code.

Their seat trim & door trim design is essentially the same. Same instruments & dash facia trim. Same grille, dual headlights & exterior trim.

Equipment level is the same with 3 exceptions.

In early HQ it got front discs, where the Premier didn't get them until '73

HQ Premiers didn't get bucket seats in HQ, but the LS needed them because it was a coupe, for access to the back seat.

By HJ time, all was equal bar the coupe's standard vinyl roof.

Getting back to the Kingwood being the equivalent of the K level Commodore. There is no comparison between the Belmont (M) level & the K level Commodore.

The Belmont (M) level harked back to the 48-215 with:-

Rubber floor, bench seat, single tone interior, no courtesy light door switches or cigarette lighter, very basic instruments etc. etc.

Specials & KIngswoods gained the courtesy door switches & the cig lighter, but prior to the HX/HZ era, very little else.

Believe it or not, I'm currently writing a Ford book (I know shock horror !!) & it is interesting to note how the Falcon Deluxe/500 mirrors the Special/Kingswood equipment level to the letter. Even the Ford base model disappeared at the same time as the HZ (XC was the last).

Prior to VN, where equipment levels were again increased (4 wheel discs & power steer std etc.) The K level Commodore was the volume seller (as was the Kingwood), The L level (SL-SL/X) pretty much replaced the Premier, but the X level (SL/E-Calais) was a whole level above any thing previously released excepting the LWB models.

Dr Terry
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HK1837 Offline
#76 Posted : Wednesday, 28 December 2016 10:01:40 AM(UTC)
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I meant the SL/E doesn't equate to a Holden lux level. I thought it was above a Premier and below a Deville (like a 1971-2 HQ LS), but Mick says it is above a Deville and below a Caprice, hence an orphan in any case when released. The HQ LS had higher spec trim than a HQ Premier and as you state the 6cyl HQ Premier didn't get front discs as standard, hence it sat in a weird position. It went back to being essentially a straight Premier coupe for 1973-4 HQ and HJ. I agree that the LS is all but a Premier coupe, but for those 1971-2 cars it is higher equipped than a Premier, especially the 6cyl models.

I agree the Belmont does not equate to any Commodore, which is what I said - this is what I questioned in your prior post. I equated the HZ Kingswood (or A9K HZ Kingswood in sedan and wagon) to the fleet A9K Commodore.

I hope you blow the lid on the possible true origins of the XA in your book! You might have Ford people after blood though!

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Warren Turnbull Offline
#77 Posted : Wednesday, 28 December 2016 2:27:59 PM(UTC)
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So I shall rephrase the question,

"Mick, when did level K get power windows as an option?"
Dr Terry Offline
#78 Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2016 8:42:41 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
So I shall rephrase the question,

"Mick, when did level K get power windows as an option?"


Hi Warren.

I checked all of my Commodore Features Books from VB to VL & no K level cars had power windows (option or otherwise) with the exception of Thailand export sedan models only.

If my memory serves me correctly early VN K level cars had a "power pack" option. This had power windows, central locking, power mirrors & electric aerial as a combined option pack. It wasn't long before the door locks & mirrors became standard for Execs, so that "pack" had a short life.
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commodorenut Offline
#79 Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2016 10:15:26 AM(UTC)
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That's right - VN was the first commodore where provision was made in the K-level for power options to be dealer fitted. All looms had the take-off plug for power options - it just wasn't used in the more basic models.

In VB-VH the loom attachment process was simpler, and could possibly have been completed by a dealer with enough insight into how the SL/E with power options was wired, but documentation shows them as N/A, even at dealer level.

For VK & VL there was simply no provision at all in a K loom, preventing even the smartest dealer techs from being able to "plug & play" bits from higher spec models with minor adaptations like they possibly could with VB-VH.
Cheers,

Mick
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castellan Offline
#80 Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2016 1:12:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I meant the SL/E doesn't equate to a Holden lux level. I thought it was above a Premier and below a Deville (like a 1971-2 HQ LS), but Mick says it is above a Deville and below a Caprice, hence an orphan in any case when released. The HQ LS had higher spec trim than a HQ Premier and as you state the 6cyl HQ Premier didn't get front discs as standard, hence it sat in a weird position. It went back to being essentially a straight Premier coupe for 1973-4 HQ and HJ. I agree that the LS is all but a Premier coupe, but for those 1971-2 cars it is higher equipped than a Premier, especially the 6cyl models.

I agree the Belmont does not equate to any Commodore, which is what I said - this is what I questioned in your prior post. I equated the HZ Kingswood (or A9K HZ Kingswood in sedan and wagon) to the fleet A9K Commodore.

I hope you blow the lid on the possible true origins of the XA in your book! You might have Ford people after blood though!



No no the XA Falcon ZF Fairlane is a truly Aussie car Think ,but it started out designed as one of the USA Ford cars under the name of Mercury division, just like the early Falcons were very much a like and even the XP got the hood from the Mercury.

But yes the XA became a truly Aussie car, because it was only ever made over here.
Ford Australia could not design jack here but had involvement with USA to make the XY-A-B 6cyl engine that was a lower deck height type of USA 250 engine so we could use the 200ci and 250 in the same block casting and that saved having two castings like they had in the USA and we did the same type of bodge job with the 302 Cleveland.

I am sure that Ford USA mainly were behind created the casting design for the 6cyl X flow block and head, sure Ford Aus were involved in pushing for it, but they could in no way build it from scratch, they could not even design or cast an alloy head here as they got Honda to do that for them.
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