Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Login


Take the time to read our Privacy Policy.

6 Pages«<3456>
detective Offline
#81 Posted : Thursday, 29 December 2016 9:53:21 PM(UTC)
detective

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/01/2013(UTC)
Posts: 285

Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
As you say the VB SL/E is probably somewhat of a orphan initially in that it was like a throwback to 1971/2 HQ LS where the car although it presented as a "Premier" it was really a higher spec than Premier but not quite a Deville in appointments.


I don't quite understand what you mean by the VB SL/E 'orphan' comment.

My take on the Monaro LS is that it is truly the coupe version of the Premier.

The LS only existed for 2 series (or 3 if you count the '73 HQ update)

To begin with they both use the same P code.

Their seat trim & door trim design is essentially the same. Same instruments & dash facia trim. Same grille, dual headlights & exterior trim.

Equipment level is the same with 3 exceptions.

In early HQ it got front discs, where the Premier didn't get them until '73

HQ Premiers didn't get bucket seats in HQ, but the LS needed them because it was a coupe, for access to the back seat.

By HJ time, all was equal bar the coupe's standard vinyl roof.

Getting back to the Kingwood being the equivalent of the K level Commodore. There is no comparison between the Belmont (M) level & the K level Commodore.

The Belmont (M) level harked back to the 48-215 with:-

Rubber floor, bench seat, single tone interior, no courtesy light door switches or cigarette lighter, very basic instruments etc. etc.

Specials & KIngswoods gained the courtesy door switches & the cig lighter, but prior to the HX/HZ era, very little else.

Believe it or not, I'm currently writing a Ford book (I know shock horror !!) & it is interesting to note how the Falcon Deluxe/500 mirrors the Special/Kingswood equipment level to the letter. Even the Ford base model disappeared at the same time as the HZ (XC was the last).

Prior to VN, where equipment levels were again increased (4 wheel discs & power steer std etc.) The K level Commodore was the volume seller (as was the Kingwood), The L level (SL-SL/X) pretty much replaced the Premier, but the X level (SL/E-Calais) was a whole level above any thing previously released excepting the LWB models.

Dr Terry



...Apparently Ford always knew what to tweak on their new models coming through by simply hiring the current release Holden available through the Rent-A-Car outlets.. A very elegant "sneak peek" at what the opposition was up to.

Edited by user Thursday, 29 December 2016 9:55:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

commodorenut Offline
#82 Posted : Friday, 30 December 2016 7:00:05 AM(UTC)
commodorenut

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 2/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,794

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 18 time(s) in 17 post(s)
Sometimes Ford got the jump though - as an example, they beat Commodore to standard 4-wheel discs (VN) by putting them on the XF update.

Holden also responded too - like the mid-model update to the VH SL to counter the increased equipment (standard cloth seats) on the XE GL when it was released.

The 80s saw a lot of "tit for tat" updates, and the buyers were the ultimate winners. I'm sure the 70s was the same.

The 90s became about electronics - the race for ABS, Airbags, remote central locking, anti-theft systems etc. When you look at some of Ford's updates, they coincide with Holden release dates for new models, and vice-versa.

This even continued into the 2000s. Ford's IRS (excluding the rather rare AU option) took a long time coming compared to Holden (intro in '91, and standard on all with except ute with the '97 VT) but the BA sedan and Territory's standard IRS it's arguably a far superior system to the Opel-inspired Holden system that ran to the end of VZ. Then the VE's IRS module leapfrogged the Ford unit yet again, with far superior wear rates on the bushes (and the only criticisms of it come from high HP ab-users).

This is why I've always maintained a balanced view of "Ford vs Holden" instead of the typical one-eyed narrow view - because without the advances made by one, the other wouldn't have had to work as hard to improve their model.


Cheers,

Mick
_______________________________________________________________

Judge a successful man not on how he treats his peers, but on how he treats those less fortunate.
castellan Offline
#83 Posted : Friday, 30 December 2016 7:55:33 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,069

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: commodorenut Go to Quoted Post
Sometimes Ford got the jump though - as an example, they beat Commodore to standard 4-wheel discs (VN) by putting them on the XF update.

Holden also responded too - like the mid-model update to the VH SL to counter the increased equipment (standard cloth seats) on the XE GL when it was released.

The 80s saw a lot of "tit for tat" updates, and the buyers were the ultimate winners. I'm sure the 70s was the same.

The 90s became about electronics - the race for ABS, Airbags, remote central locking, anti-theft systems etc. When you look at some of Ford's updates, they coincide with Holden release dates for new models, and vice-versa.

This even continued into the 2000s. Ford's IRS (excluding the rather rare AU option) took a long time coming compared to Holden (intro in '91, and standard on all with except ute with the '97 VT) but the BA sedan and Territory's standard IRS it's arguably a far superior system to the Opel-inspired Holden system that ran to the end of VZ. Then the VE's IRS module leapfrogged the Ford unit yet again, with far superior wear rates on the bushes (and the only criticisms of it come from high HP ab-users).

This is why I've always maintained a balanced view of "Ford vs Holden" instead of the typical one-eyed narrow view - because without the advances made by one, the other wouldn't have had to work as hard to improve their model.



I know where Holden got there IRS from but where did the VE type come from and the Falcon type setup where did they pick that up from ?
commodorenut Offline
#84 Posted : Friday, 30 December 2016 9:58:17 AM(UTC)
commodorenut

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 2/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,794

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 18 time(s) in 17 post(s)
Both IRS systems were designed in-house in Australia by the respective company engineers.

I think the Territory is one of Australia's greatest engineering feats - they managed to build a comfortable "SUV" with the option of AWD, using many of the BA (and later on FG) existing components, all done on a shoestring budget. Arguably (on a technical basis) more successful than Holden's Adventra, which had a similar level of detail in the driveline, but was masked in a body too similar to a jacked-up wagon. The Territory sales over its 12 year lifespan (despite dropping off in later years) is proof of that success.
Cheers,

Mick
_______________________________________________________________

Judge a successful man not on how he treats his peers, but on how he treats those less fortunate.
Dr Terry Offline
#85 Posted : Friday, 30 December 2016 10:13:45 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,257

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 44 time(s) in 42 post(s)
Originally Posted by: commodorenut Go to Quoted Post
Sometimes Ford got the jump though - as an example, they beat Commodore to standard 4-wheel discs (VN) by putting them on the XF update.

Holden also responded too - like the mid-model update to the VH SL to counter the increased equipment (standard cloth seats) on the XE GL when it was released.

The 80s saw a lot of "tit for tat" updates, and the buyers were the ultimate winners. I'm sure the 70s was the same.

The 90s became about electronics - the race for ABS, Airbags, remote central locking, anti-theft systems etc. When you look at some of Ford's updates, they coincide with Holden release dates for new models, and vice-versa.

This even continued into the 2000s. Ford's IRS (excluding the rather rare AU option) took a long time coming compared to Holden (intro in '91, and standard on all with except ute with the '97 VT) but the BA sedan and Territory's standard IRS it's arguably a far superior system to the Opel-inspired Holden system that ran to the end of VZ. Then the VE's IRS module leapfrogged the Ford unit yet again, with far superior wear rates on the bushes (and the only criticisms of it come from high HP ab-users).

This is why I've always maintained a balanced view of "Ford vs Holden" instead of the typical one-eyed narrow view - because without the advances made by one, the other wouldn't have had to work as hard to improve their model.




I totally agree Mick. In my view Ford & Holden have been "tit for tat" since the very first XK was released in Sept 1960.

The very similarity of their various specs & pricing regimes, makes you even suspect insider trading or at the very least, industrial espionage.

Ford fired the first salvo with the XK auto transmission, Holden had theirs on the road within 8 months. Their 'luxury' models (Premier & Futura) were released inside a week of each other, in mid-1962.

Ford beat Holden with the larger car & the V8 (XR), but Holden returned fire with the start of the option war. HK got a good head start over the XW.

The 70s, 80s & 90s were very much the same. As Mick has mentioned the VN/VP/VR/VS versus EA/EB/ED/EF/EL battle was very intense with each manufacturer bringing out yearly updates. We had series 2 of just about every model line from both sides.

I'm with Mick, Ford & Holden both benefitted from serious competition, but mostly from each other.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
commodorenut Offline
#86 Posted : Friday, 30 December 2016 11:40:52 AM(UTC)
commodorenut

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 2/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,794

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 18 time(s) in 17 post(s)
With the way the aftermarket are involved in development, it would be no surprise if a lot of the "insider" trading was done at Tier level suppliers.
"Hey Mr Ford, we've just developed this new gadget for Holden, would you like to buy it off us for the next Falcon?"

Not suggesting these guys for a minute, but Bosch is a good example of a supplier to multiple brands, where their R&D has had benefits for many of them.
Hella would be another in that respect with lighting developments. Even the likes of Sumitomo/Yazaki with developments in wiring loom efficiencies.
Cheers,

Mick
_______________________________________________________________

Judge a successful man not on how he treats his peers, but on how he treats those less fortunate.
castellan Offline
#87 Posted : Friday, 30 December 2016 2:49:41 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,069

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: commodorenut Go to Quoted Post
Sometimes Ford got the jump though - as an example, they beat Commodore to standard 4-wheel discs (VN) by putting them on the XF update.

Holden also responded too - like the mid-model update to the VH SL to counter the increased equipment (standard cloth seats) on the XE GL when it was released.

The 80s saw a lot of "tit for tat" updates, and the buyers were the ultimate winners. I'm sure the 70s was the same.

The 90s became about electronics - the race for ABS, Airbags, remote central locking, anti-theft systems etc. When you look at some of Ford's updates, they coincide with Holden release dates for new models, and vice-versa.

This even continued into the 2000s. Ford's IRS (excluding the rather rare AU option) took a long time coming compared to Holden (intro in '91, and standard on all with except ute with the '97 VT) but the BA sedan and Territory's standard IRS it's arguably a far superior system to the Opel-inspired Holden system that ran to the end of VZ. Then the VE's IRS module leapfrogged the Ford unit yet again, with far superior wear rates on the bushes (and the only criticisms of it come from high HP ab-users).

This is why I've always maintained a balanced view of "Ford vs Holden" instead of the typical one-eyed narrow view - because without the advances made by one, the other wouldn't have had to work as hard to improve their model.




I totally agree Mick. In my view Ford & Holden have been "tit for tat" since the very first XK was released in Sept 1960.

The very similarity of their various specs & pricing regimes, makes you even suspect insider trading or at the very least, industrial espionage.

Ford fired the first salvo with the XK auto transmission, Holden had theirs on the road within 8 months. Their 'luxury' models (Premier & Futura) were released inside a week of each other, in mid-1962.

Ford beat Holden with the larger car & the V8 (XR), but Holden returned fire with the start of the option war. HK got a good head start over the XW.

The 70s, 80s & 90s were very much the same. As Mick has mentioned the VN/VP/VR/VS versus EA/EB/ED/EF/EL battle was very intense with each manufacturer bringing out yearly updates. We had series 2 of just about every model line from both sides.

I'm with Mick, Ford & Holden both benefitted from serious competition, but mostly from each other.

Dr Terry


How did the Holden's be it the HK get a good head start over the Fords XT Falcon, ZB Fairlane let a lone the 1968 Galaxie for options.
I think Holden was backwards with only 2sp autos and a crappy big yank car with only drum brakes.d'oh!
Dr Terry Offline
#88 Posted : Friday, 30 December 2016 3:38:58 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,257

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 44 time(s) in 42 post(s)
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
[
How did the Holden's be it the HK get a good head start over the Fords XT Falcon, ZB Fairlane let a lone the 1968 Galaxie for options.
I think Holden was backwards with only 2sp autos and a crappy big yank car with only drum brakes.d'oh!


My XT vs HK comparison centred around option availability, not whether one car had a 2-sp & the other had a 3-sp.

With the HK, you could order bucket seats, centre console, 4-sp floor shift, T-bar auto, sports instruments, power windows, factory air con, etc. etc. on a Kingswood. To my knowledge you couldn't get any of these on an XT Falcon or Fairmont.

Ford caught up with a very similar option scheme with the XW, one year later.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Friday, 30 December 2016 3:41:33 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
castellan Offline
#89 Posted : Saturday, 31 December 2016 10:36:39 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,069

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
[
How did the Holden's be it the HK get a good head start over the Fords XT Falcon, ZB Fairlane let a lone the 1968 Galaxie for options.
I think Holden was backwards with only 2sp autos and a crappy big yank car with only drum brakes.d'oh!


My XT vs HK comparison centred around option availability, not whether one car had a 2-sp & the other had a 3-sp.

With the HK, you could order bucket seats, centre console, 4-sp floor shift, T-bar auto, sports instruments, power windows, factory air con, etc. etc. on a Kingswood. To my knowledge you couldn't get any of these on an XT Falcon or Fairmont.

Ford caught up with a very similar option scheme with the XW, one year later.

Dr Terry


I believe you could get all that with an XR and the wagon had power rear window.

You could order even a XR falcon 500 ute with bucket seats T bar or 4sp with air con and the V8 near the mid to end of the series.

The sports instruments on the HK only were just third rate crappy rubbish to what a XR GT came with. what you could order a Kingswood with a tacho but not with a 140MPH speedo and the steering wheel etc ? ok maybe you could get the tacho option but Ford had moved way beyond that of Holden in there instrument setup.

Holden was playing catch up to Ford Falcon and Fairlane LTD mainly in ways till the HZ.

XK Falcon had 170 option near the end and Holden nothing.
XM had 200 option and Holden a 179
XP had 200 and 3 sp auto option
XR had 289 V8 and a GT, Holden a 186s

Holden took till the HQ to come up with integration of air con and Falcon had that way back with the XW.

Holden did not have an option of a 3 sp auto with the two big yank tanks, but it was an option in the USA with the same model car.

So when one points out who had the most options it can get a bit tricky in a whole lot of ways, it can't be won on just the numbers of options alone.
I believe it comes down to what package type model, verse to what.
Falcon vs Belmont, Falcon 500 vs Kingswood, Farimont vs Premier, all the Fairlane's vs Bro and statesman types and them you have the LTD's, all such are truly an option for the customer, just with more options available again truly.
Dr Terry Offline
#90 Posted : Saturday, 31 December 2016 11:08:00 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,257

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 44 time(s) in 42 post(s)
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

I believe you could get all that with an XR and the wagon had power rear window.

You could order even a XR falcon 500 ute with bucket seats T bar or 4sp with air con and the V8 near the mid to end of the series.

The sports instruments on the HK only were just third rate crappy rubbish to what a XR GT came with. what you could order a Kingswood with a tacho but not with a 140MPH speedo and the steering wheel etc ? ok maybe you could get the tacho option but Ford had moved way beyond that of Holden in there instrument setup.


Just to clarify. I wasn't talking about power tailgates, Ford had it XM & Holden got it in HD, again not far apart.

I was talking about 4 door power windows.

I would be checking your sources. My statement was :- "With the HK, you could order bucket seats, centre console, 4-sp floor shift, T-bar auto, sports instruments, power windows, factory air con, etc. etc. on a Kingswood. To my knowledge you couldn't get any of these on an XT Falcon or Fairmont."

There was error in that, buckets were standard for Fairmont, but you couldn't option any of the other stuff.

There was no bucket seat or 4-sp option in XR 500 ute. To get a 4-sp, T-bar auto or sports instruments, prior to XW you had to buy a GT.

There was no factory-fitted air (optional or otherwise) before XW.

Yes, the XW/XY air con was fully integrated, whereas the HK/HT/HG was an under dash unit, but I can can tell from 40 years in the car air con game, the cooling performance of the Frigidaire unit killed the Ford air con.

What was wrong with the sports instruments in HK, it had 4 minor gauges, versus Ford's 3 & were easy to read. OK, the floor mounted taco was an afterthought, but was well remedied with the HT set-up.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Dr Terry Offline
#91 Posted : Saturday, 31 December 2016 11:35:36 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,257

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 44 time(s) in 42 post(s)
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

XK Falcon had 170 option near the end and Holden nothing.
XM had 200 option and Holden a 179
XP had 200 and 3 sp auto option
XR had 289 V8 and a GT, Holden a 186s


Yes, the 170 beat Ford in the early power race, You had wait 14 months for Holdens 179.

The 200 was no great performer. In fact the performance of the 179 & 200 were very similar. The EH 179 was a slightly better performer than Ford's 200 in both manual & automatic form. Also as a matter of fact, despite your hatred of 2-sp autos, the HD 179 Powerglide was also superior to the Ford, until Ford got the BW 35.

During this period, neither manufacturer had a clear lead in the 6-cyl performance stakes. Ford's larger capacity engines were let down by their more primitive inlet & head design. Also prior to XR they didn't have a "proper" mechanical & vacuum advance type distributor. The 179 easily outperformed the 170 & was almost a match for the 200, while the 186 easily saw off the 200. Holden's achilles heal was its transmissions, had they had the Tri-Matic behind the 179/186 in EH/HR days it would have been no contest.

Yes, Holden had no match for the XR GT, just as Ford had no match for the 186S 4-sp Premier, prior to that. Again wait 14 months & we got the slightly superior GTS 327.

Tit for tat all the way.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
nineteenfortyeight Offline
#92 Posted : Saturday, 31 December 2016 12:29:42 PM(UTC)
nineteenfortyeight

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/09/2016(UTC)
Posts: 24
Man
Australia
Location: Blackbutt Queensland

Thanks: 9 times
In march of 1974 I ordered a HQ Panelvan. The salesman was on my side with the options list so I ticked 350/4speed, monaro interior such as steering wheel, bucket seats, dash etc, in black, with matching door trims, floor mats, superlift shocks and sunburst paint. They came back to me about 2 weeks later to say that the 350 was reserved for the monaro and statesman so I could only have the 308 and 4 speed box. I asked and was declined! It was $4,400 registered and insured at July 1974 when it arrived. I had $1,100 deposit and my father was going guarantor as I was only 18. I was advised by friends to get an NRMA inspection as the build quality was crap on commercials and there were numerous 'faults' such as paint buffed off over the rear wheel arches, scratches below both door locks and even the front wheel bearings were not adjusted properly! I asked for the necessary 'adjustments to be made and the paint to be rectified and they assured me it would be 'fixed'. I went back every second day for a couple of weeks and in the end I said I would take it and rectify the paint myself as I had panel beater mates. They then said my finance was not approved so I couldn't take delivery. I told them to shove their dealership where the sun doesn't shine and went out and paid cash for a DT 360 Yamaha. The Van had been registered in my fathers name as the salesman showed me the rego papers. Rego number was NSW GXB354. I saw the Van about 6 months later while driving with a mate in the car and he said he knew who the owner was. He later told me the owner bought the Van second hand for $4,900 as it was 'back traded' with 'delivery miles' only on it because the buyer changed his mind after purchase. Second hand Vans were selling for more than a new one as Holden couldn't keep up with demand, just like the release of the 48 215..... And my Van was ordered before the Sandman was released. Where is it now? The dealer was Sturgess Hall at Auburn. They closed down years ago!
Cheers,
Ron
48 215
castellan Offline
#93 Posted : Sunday, 1 January 2017 6:47:30 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,069

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

XK Falcon had 170 option near the end and Holden nothing.
XM had 200 option and Holden a 179
XP had 200 and 3 sp auto option
XR had 289 V8 and a GT, Holden a 186s


Yes, the 170 beat Ford in the early power race, You had wait 14 months for Holdens 179.

The 200 was no great performer. In fact the performance of the 179 & 200 were very similar. The EH 179 was a slightly better performer than Ford's 200 in both manual & automatic form. Also as a matter of fact, despite your hatred of 2-sp autos, the HD 179 Powerglide was also superior to the Ford, until Ford got the BW 35.

During this period, neither manufacturer had a clear lead in the 6-cyl performance stakes. Ford's larger capacity engines were let down by their more primitive inlet & head design. Also prior to XR they didn't have a "proper" mechanical & vacuum advance type distributor. The 179 easily outperformed the 170 & was almost a match for the 200, while the 186 easily saw off the 200. Holden's achilles heal was its transmissions, had they had the Tri-Matic behind the 179/186 in EH/HR days it would have been no contest.

Yes, Holden had no match for the XR GT, just as Ford had no match for the 186S 4-sp Premier, prior to that. Again wait 14 months & we got the slightly superior GTS 327.

Tit for tat all the way.

Dr Terry


No hatred of the powerglide my mum had a 186 HR from new -/8/1967 to -/8/1977 with over 250,000 Miles up on it, auto and engine were still spot on but the body was rusted out and she then got a second hand XR 200 auto Falcon from a mates mum, the auto blew up and it cracked the top of number 2 piston at about 140,000 Miles up, I still have that car down the bush. I would say that the 2sp auto was not the HR's down fall because the diff ratio was low enough to make it fine, but the 186 HK-T bigger 14in wheels and extra weigh did not perform as well and the 307 HK 2sp with the 2.78 ratio was gutless, making it crappy to drive, but with a 3.36 it would be better.

Dreadful 2sp auto in the Falcons, a uncle had a XM future from new with that and the big USA Imported 200ci engine.
Australia only made the 144 and 170 and then only the 200ci 7 mains in the XR model.

Yes I agree with you on all the rest.
castellan Offline
#94 Posted : Sunday, 1 January 2017 8:08:38 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,069

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

I believe you could get all that with an XR and the wagon had power rear window.

You could order even a XR falcon 500 ute with bucket seats T bar or 4sp with air con and the V8 near the mid to end of the series.

The sports instruments on the HK only were just third rate crappy rubbish to what a XR GT came with. what you could order a Kingswood with a tacho but not with a 140MPH speedo and the steering wheel etc ? ok maybe you could get the tacho option but Ford had moved way beyond that of Holden in there instrument setup.


Just to clarify. I wasn't talking about power tailgates, Ford had it XM & Holden got it in HD, again not far apart.

I was talking about 4 door power windows.

I would be checking your sources. My statement was :- "With the HK, you could order bucket seats, centre console, 4-sp floor shift, T-bar auto, sports instruments, power windows, factory air con, etc. etc. on a Kingswood. To my knowledge you couldn't get any of these on an XT Falcon or Fairmont."

There was error in that, buckets were standard for Fairmont, but you couldn't option any of the other stuff.

There was no bucket seat or 4-sp option in XR 500 ute. To get a 4-sp, T-bar auto or sports instruments, prior to XW you had to buy a GT.

There was no factory-fitted air (optional or otherwise) before XW.

Yes, the XW/XY air con was fully integrated, whereas the HK/HT/HG was an under dash unit, but I can can tell from 40 years in the car air con game, the cooling performance of the Frigidaire unit killed the Ford air con.

What was wrong with the sports instruments in HK, it had 4 minor gauges, versus Ford's 3 & were easy to read. OK, the floor mounted taco was an afterthought, but was well remedied with the HT set-up.

Dr Terry


I am sure I have seen a XR 289 V8 ute with buckets in a new advertisement on line, I can't remember the name of it now, but it shows a lot of pictures of cars.

I just don't like the long speedo's on any car and I like the XR=T GT set up much better with a tacho in the correct spot and with the setup of the rest, my first recollection was sitting in a new Gold XR GT that a friend of my Dads had and all that chrome work, just look at the steering wheel as well.

The windows on the HK-T-G did not need power as they were easy as to use, I can't say the same about the HQ on were rubbish to use. I just thought the Falcons had P/W option I was wrong, only from the XA did they come with that option.
I must of thought they had P/W because one of Dads mates had a 302 XW Fairmont wagon with P/W, but he must of fitted it all himself, what a car that is! and he still as it and he bought that when it was 2 years old and back in 1974 he even had a TV in it and a police siren and dropped in a worked 351W and it had T bar with bucket seats.

All the ZC Fairlane that came with 351's were 351 Windsor, but for the last 2 months as they ran out and put 351C from then on, but the XW GT and GT-HO went Cleveland from March 1970.

I remember a mates mum's ZB Fairlane had air con box under the dash type.
Far as I know most people oped to go for aftermarket air con because of the cost genuine was a joke, even I went for a non genuine in a new 1992 car.

Early Holden air con may of been a factory air, under the dash type but the company that made them was here I believe and may of sold most as an aftermarket thing.
My 253 HG premier had that type of air con and sure it could get cold, but I was never fussed on them types.
The compressors must of been all the same type from what I remember, it's just like the ones the last XE V8's had, the old crap piston type. at least Holden went better with that black cylinder type from about the HJ I think.

Dr Terry Offline
#95 Posted : Monday, 2 January 2017 9:07:20 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,257

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 44 time(s) in 42 post(s)
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

Early Holden air con may of been a factory air, under the dash type but the company that made them was here I believe and may of sold most as an aftermarket thing.
My 253 HG premier had that type of air con and sure it could get cold, but I was never fussed on them types.
The compressors must of been all the same type from what I remember, it's just like the ones the last XE V8's had, the old crap piston type. at least Holden went better with that black cylinder type from about the HJ I think.



The factory air cond seen in HK/HT/HG used US made Frigidaire components including the A6 compressor. The same black A6 type compressor was used by Holden from HK to WB. They were not used by any aftermarket company in those days. The most common aftermarket systems back then (e.g. Mark IV, Repco AWA etc.) used York 2-piston compressors, just like Ford XW to XD 6-cyl & XW to XE V8.

Frigidaire was a GM owned division & the A6 compressor was used on millions of US & UK cars during the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s. These include all the GM marques, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Rolls Royce, Bentley & Jaguar & many others.

The GM A6 compressor was the first of the 'swash plate' type compressor, where instead of having a crankshaft it had a plate which wobbled & pushed the piston back & forth arranged in a radial pattern. There were actually only 3 pistons but they were double-ended, effectively resulting in 6 pistons. It was much smoother than the old York 2-piston unit, a bit like comparing a 2 piston Harley motor to a V6. 6 small pulses per rev, versus 2 large pulses.

The most common aftermarket compressor on the market from the 70s to present day is the Sanden SD508 & SD7H15. These are advertised as being 'rotary' compressors, but they have 5 or 7 pistons arranged as in the A6, so are still a piston compressor. The main difference is size; the Sanden units are 8 cubic inch displacement, the GM compressors are most commonly 12 cubic inch, but there was a 10 ci also. The factory air con compressor used in the XE 6-cyl was a Sanden & is arguably the best compressor used by Ford Australia.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Dr Terry Offline
#96 Posted : Monday, 2 January 2017 9:14:13 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,257

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 44 time(s) in 42 post(s)
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

The windows on the HK-T-G did not need power as they were easy as to use, I can't say the same about the HQ on were rubbish to use. I just thought the Falcons had P/W option I was wrong, only from the XA did they come with that option.
I must of thought they had P/W because one of Dads mates had a 302 XW Fairmont wagon with P/W, but he must of fitted it all himself, what a car that is!



AFAIK Ford offered power windows in the XW/ZD range for the South African market. If you have a copy of the factory XW/ZD workshop manual, look in the wiring diagram section, the circuit for the power windows is shown.

I've never seen power windows in an Aussie XW or ZD.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
castellan Offline
#97 Posted : Monday, 2 January 2017 9:10:07 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,069

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

Early Holden air con may of been a factory air, under the dash type but the company that made them was here I believe and may of sold most as an aftermarket thing.
My 253 HG premier had that type of air con and sure it could get cold, but I was never fussed on them types.
The compressors must of been all the same type from what I remember, it's just like the ones the last XE V8's had, the old crap piston type. at least Holden went better with that black cylinder type from about the HJ I think.



The factory air cond seen in HK/HT/HG used US made Frigidaire components including the A6 compressor. The same black A6 type compressor was used by Holden from HK to WB. They were not used by any aftermarket company in those days. The most common aftermarket systems back then (e.g. Mark IV, Repco AWA etc.) used York 2-piston compressors, just like Ford XW to XD 6-cyl & XW to XE V8.

Frigidaire was a GM owned division & the A6 compressor was used on millions of US & UK cars during the 50s, 60s, 70s & 80s. These include all the GM marques, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Rolls Royce, Bentley & Jaguar & many others.

The GM A6 compressor was the first of the 'swash plate' type compressor, where instead of having a crankshaft it had a plate which wobbled & pushed the piston back & forth arranged in a radial pattern. There were actually only 3 pistons but they were double-ended, effectively resulting in 6 pistons. It was much smoother than the old York 2-piston unit, a bit like comparing a 2 piston Harley motor to a V6. 6 small pulses per rev, versus 2 large pulses.

The most common aftermarket compressor on the market from the 70s to present day is the Sanden SD508 & SD7H15. These are advertised as being 'rotary' compressors, but they have 5 or 7 pistons arranged as in the A6, so are still a piston compressor. The main difference is size; the Sanden units are 8 cubic inch displacement, the GM compressors are most commonly 12 cubic inch, but there was a 10 ci also. The factory air con compressor used in the XE 6-cyl was a Sanden & is arguably the best compressor used by Ford Australia.

Dr Terry


My HG Premier must of had a York type and was not painted black I thought it alloy or painted silver and every Holden I seen had that up to the HQ, maybe in QLD this type had the market sown up.
I hate that type compressor as sitting on 100MPH plus and over taking having it growl a way to 5500RPM in 2ed overtaking, had to back off and hit the gas again so she would not rev so hard and explode, it got sure could get bloody cooled tho.

I remember taking my mum from Bundaberg to Brisbane and she freaked out about that noise, but did not mind me sitting over 100MPH for a lot of the way, she even made my mate sit in the back.
castellan Offline
#98 Posted : Monday, 2 January 2017 9:17:56 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,069

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

The windows on the HK-T-G did not need power as they were easy as to use, I can't say the same about the HQ on were rubbish to use. I just thought the Falcons had P/W option I was wrong, only from the XA did they come with that option.
I must of thought they had P/W because one of Dads mates had a 302 XW Fairmont wagon with P/W, but he must of fitted it all himself, what a car that is!



AFAIK Ford offered power windows in the XW/ZD range for the South African market. If you have a copy of the factory XW/ZD workshop manual, look in the wiring diagram section, the circuit for the power windows is shown.

I've never seen power windows in an Aussie XW or ZD.

Dr Terry


Yep that's where I have seen them, just like on old mates wagon, the price they must of payed for them cars over their, maybe why, or they came across as a more posh car as what they are here.
castellan Offline
#99 Posted : Wednesday, 4 January 2017 5:38:33 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,069

Thanks: 7 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Originally Posted by: nineteenfortyeight Go to Quoted Post
In march of 1974 I ordered a HQ Panelvan. The salesman was on my side with the options list so I ticked 350/4speed, monaro interior such as steering wheel, bucket seats, dash etc, in black, with matching door trims, floor mats, superlift shocks and sunburst paint. They came back to me about 2 weeks later to say that the 350 was reserved for the monaro and statesman so I could only have the 308 and 4 speed box. I asked and was declined! It was $4,400 registered and insured at July 1974 when it arrived. I had $1,100 deposit and my father was going guarantor as I was only 18. I was advised by friends to get an NRMA inspection as the build quality was crap on commercials and there were numerous 'faults' such as paint buffed off over the rear wheel arches, scratches below both door locks and even the front wheel bearings were not adjusted properly! I asked for the necessary 'adjustments to be made and the paint to be rectified and they assured me it would be 'fixed'. I went back every second day for a couple of weeks and in the end I said I would take it and rectify the paint myself as I had panel beater mates. They then said my finance was not approved so I couldn't take delivery. I told them to shove their dealership where the sun doesn't shine and went out and paid cash for a DT 360 Yamaha. The Van had been registered in my fathers name as the salesman showed me the rego papers. Rego number was NSW GXB354. I saw the Van about 6 months later while driving with a mate in the car and he said he knew who the owner was. He later told me the owner bought the Van second hand for $4,900 as it was 'back traded' with 'delivery miles' only on it because the buyer changed his mind after purchase. Second hand Vans were selling for more than a new one as Holden couldn't keep up with demand, just like the release of the 48 215..... And my Van was ordered before the Sandman was released. Where is it now? The dealer was Sturgess Hall at Auburn. They closed down years ago!
Cheers,
Ron
DT360 YAMAHA now that was power Drool back in the day, I only had a RM125S SUZUKI.Angel
Hell a lot of them HQ Holden's were of a badly put together quality, a old mate claimed my HX Sandman p van was once a ute Haha ! but bloody hell I bought a new 1993 XG falcon ute and it looked as tho it had fallen of the back of a truck.

Edited by user Wednesday, 4 January 2017 5:39:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Dr Terry Offline
#100 Posted : Wednesday, 4 January 2017 7:12:00 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,257

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 44 time(s) in 42 post(s)
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
My HG Premier must of had a York type and was not painted black I thought it alloy or painted silver and every Holden I seen had that up to the HQ, maybe in QLD this type had the market sown up.
I hate that type compressor as sitting on 100MPH plus and over taking having it growl a way to 5500RPM in 2ed overtaking, had to back off and hit the gas again so she would not rev so hard and explode, it got sure could get bloody cooled tho.

I remember taking my mum from Bundaberg to Brisbane and she freaked out about that noise, but did not mind me sitting over 100MPH for a lot of the way, she even made my mate sit in the back.


Yes, the York compressor came either black or alloy (silver) finish, although the factory Ford Yorks were always black.

Holden never used Yorks from the factory, because they had access to the better A6 unit which was made by an 'in-house' GM owned division (Frigidaire or Harrison, depending on the era).

The York noise drama was more a problem caused by badly designed aftermarket mount kits, which had the belt run at odd lengths between pulleys. Sure it was exacerbated by the design deficiencies of the 2-cyl unit, but the factory Ford systems had well designed mount drives & were relatively noise & vibration free as long as the belt tension was correct.

Chrysler Aust. used a similar compressor 2-cyl made by Tecumseh & it too suffered these dramas. The 'rotary' style compressors, like the GM A6 & the smaller Sankyo/Sanden compressors suffered far less from this issue, because of their multi-cylinder design.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Users browsing this topic
Guest
6 Pages«<3456>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF | YAF © 2003-2017, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.672 seconds.