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Jul71-Oct74 Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 5:41:45 AM(UTC)
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Today's announcement that GM is selling its Opel/ Vauxhall division to PSA group makes you wonder what impact (if any) this will have on upcoming Holden models.
What do you guys think?
wbute Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 5:49:00 AM(UTC)
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Not great news for Holden is it. Makes you wonder how long before they get rid of Holden altogether?
Who wants a Peugeot re-badged as a Holden? Anyone?
HK1837 Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 6:39:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Not great news for Holden is it. Makes you wonder how long before they get rid of Holden altogether?
Who wants a Peugeot re-badged as a Holden? Anyone?


There were plenty of other cars rebadged as a Holden that were good, some were bad. Apollo, Nova (although these were assembled in a GMH facility), Scurry, Shuttle, Suburban, Jackeroo, Rodeo, Piazza etc. It could still be a good thing if they'd just choose the right cars, like Camaro, GMC/Chevy trucks and similar stuff. I'd personally rather a Holden Camaro or a Holden K2500 than an SS sedan or a Colarado.

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castellan Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 12:23:13 PM(UTC)
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What's a PSA group.

Holden maybe finished all together sooner then we thought.

Everything looks like WW3 is on the cards, China is building up for war and makes huge threat's all the time.

USA is on life support because it was lead by deception for years into becoming bankrupt backward shit hole, Bush, Hillary, Obama mob have worked desperately to steal Russia's wealth in any way they possibly could by spinning total full on crap and they only worked to undermine the sand niggers oil, not to mention that the satanic Zionist so called Jews control USA and it's them who's pushing 100% for wars they want and only worked to created all this shit.

look at the money we are spending on our ADF now, that's madness, if all was in fact ok.

USA is now spending even more huge amount's of more money now on war and it's all insane madness as to why.

No company such as GM pulls out of anything like that.
Dr Terry Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 2:16:05 PM(UTC)
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PSA Group is Peugeot/Citroen, which AFAIK is majority owned by the French Government.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
wbute Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 2:48:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Not great news for Holden is it. Makes you wonder how long before they get rid of Holden altogether?
Who wants a Peugeot re-badged as a Holden? Anyone?


There were plenty of other cars rebadged as a Holden that were good, some were bad. Apollo, Nova (although these were assembled in a GMH facility), Scurry, Shuttle, Suburban, Jackeroo, Rodeo, Piazza etc. It could still be a good thing if they'd just choose the right cars, like Camaro, GMC/Chevy trucks and similar stuff. I'd personally rather a Holden Camaro or a Holden K2500 than an SS sedan or a Colarado.



I agree. All the cars you mention hardly pull at the heart strings do they! I also would much prefer the US sourced cars you mention. A Commodore has never really suited what I want or need. But they continually look to Europe for cars to re-badge for us. Makes no sense to me.
Holden,I am afraid to say, are going to sink without a hero car to boast about. We are all going to just throw the brand in with all the other mass produced stuff. I see Mustangs on the road all the time. Yet there is nothing even similar in the Holden lineup.
wbute Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 3:17:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
PSA Group is Peugeot/Citroen, which AFAIK is majority owned by the French Government.

Dr Terry


I simply can't wait till we can trace the Commodores linage back to the 2CV!
HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 3:21:26 PM(UTC)
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If GMH had grown a brain they'd have sold the truck versions of the Suburban. All the GMC Ambulances that were in Australia had GMH compliance plates on them. Look at how well the F250's sold and how much money they still pull as used cars. They don't pull that because they are good cars, they pull it as there is nothing else here in Australia that can do what they do that is affordable. So what do they sell? Another vanilla 4cyl diesel piece of rubbish.

HSV were supposed to be selling the next gen Camaro, but haven't heard boo about it for a while.
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 5:24:22 PM(UTC)
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SUVs now outsell large sedans, Holden needed a good SUV but the Captiva just did not hold.

Holden will import and badge what will sell, that is what shall dictate the market.

Warren
HK1837 Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 6:42:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
SUVs now outsell large sedans, Holden needed a good SUV but the Captiva just did not hold.

Holden will import and badge what will sell, that is what shall dictate the market.

Warren


I agree Warren that they should import and badge what will sell. Whether or not they do is yet to be seen, and if their track record of the past 10 years is a guide it is no forgone conclusion. I know the GFC got in the road of the RHD Camaro, VE cab-chassis, dual cab etc so that is by no means their fault in totality. However the two strong market sellers are SUV and dual cab utes and they have fallen way behind in both. I think only RHD versions of the US based vehicles can save their bacon, however RHD versions may not ever be built as that market is so limited. Only seeing them built for Asian RHD markets will see them here, but those markets are so tilted towards sub 2.5L toy engines that we'd be back in the same boat with gutless and expensive to repair baby diesels.

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
wbute Offline
#11 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 7:23:36 PM(UTC)
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Holden can't hold a candle to Toyota and they are about to take them head on without anything that's either better or competitive.
As for the SUV market, they have nothing to offer. But they could easily have taken on the Prado and Landcruiser with proper US built stuff. You may see lots of euro and jap SUV stuff in cities but if you venture into regional areas it's all about Toyota 4WD vehicles.
wbute Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 7:27:21 PM(UTC)
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Oh and if the regional/mining market was not worth considering, why do Toyota pursue it endlessly? Holden had a big chunk with HQ to WB commercial vehicles but they just gave it away in 1984. The market was and still is crying out for V8 commercial vehicles. The roar of a 253/308 has been replaced with big exhausts and chips in V8 diesel Landcruisers.
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#13 Posted : Tuesday, 7 March 2017 8:05:22 PM(UTC)
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^^I've been hounding Marks 4WD since I bought my Hilux in 2010-11 for them to hurry up with the LS conversion for it. However they have been concentrating on the Landcruiser commercial market, specifically auto conversions and portal axles. There is a massive market out there for an affordable LS conversion into 2005+ Hilux, especially the plethora of higher kM diesel ones that are no longer viable to repair due to the final vehicle value. I know of a few good utes that need $5-10k spent on fuel system and diesel and transmission, that are parked in backyards. Same deal with 3.0L GU Patrols. Any of these are candidates for an LS conversion.

Edited by user Tuesday, 7 March 2017 8:51:14 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, 8 March 2017 10:38:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Oh and if the regional/mining market was not worth considering, why do Toyota pursue it endlessly? Holden had a big chunk with HQ to WB commercial vehicles but they just gave it away in 1984. The market was and still is crying out for V8 commercial vehicles. The roar of a 253/308 has been replaced with big exhausts and chips in V8 diesel Landcruisers.


Ford could of gone and done a AU 4X4 1 tonne tray back and ute back in the day and exported that. it would not be that hard to do and kept the jap 4X4 at bay a bit more, so people understand the difference between a great 4X4 and a harsh riding buss box.

But people now really do love there Colorado's rant and rave about how good they are, a mate has 2 of them, oh the power he says, I have driven the crap and can't stand them at all, it's just junk 3rd rate seats and gutless as, but go well for a DieselAnxious , only the gearbox is a pox to use because it cuts the engine power off when changing up every gearBrick wall , it cuts out for a second and then the power comes back on, that makes it bloody annoying as hell to drive.Sick
I think all the jap type 4x4 have crap seats and them dual cabs rear seat is just hell unless you are a small kid.
They are still just shit boxes, now in 2017.

A HZ-WB would still be better with up dated engines and a 4X4 setup even a HZ 4X4 station wagon and one made into a dual cab type thing would wipe the floor with the rubbish we now have.

I believe Ford had people who tried all they could to destroy the company within and with the ignorance of the salesmen who had no intentions of truly trying to sell a car, lazy and stupid as, if they worked for themselves they would of had not a hope in the world as it would be pointless to even get out of bed.d'oh! Cursing
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#15 Posted : Thursday, 9 March 2017 9:26:33 AM(UTC)
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Well for me guys, I am (at the moment) keeping the 2003 4.8 Petrol Nissan Patrol Wagon and the (Last of the Last Aussie Coupes) HSV Signature as daily drivers.

Both great in their own way and still good enough to use daily with most of the comforts but without the much more complex newer technology.

I was at the Ballarat Monaro Nationals when Nick Gontas showed me his mates HSV Signature . ....I just wan They all look similar and are just becoming rounded off safety capsules which ted one and a few months later I found one. Typical Holden build quality of the day. Great all rounder, but not quite there (Honda Accord or Mazda of the day had better build quality).

The Patrol is built (and drives) like a truck. Much more robust than most Fourbie wagons these days.

Both vehicles have a soul. This is missing from SO many cars of today. Simply ,seamlessly, silently moving people. They are now designed to make people forget they made a journey in a car.

Enter the GM-H situation. The new executive team of Holdens are GM yes men armed with a range of product from all over the world. Our market represents just one State in the U.S.A. General Motors management has changed from passionate strong individuals who wanted only an Automotive career to Uni grads applying new age business models anywhere they end up. Many bounce around in completely different industries through their careers.

What we see here as a huge matter means little in their US headquarters. Interestingly, until recently the Australian Motor Industry has punched hugely above its weight. It has influenced and in many cases directly affected major changes in products offshore. ALL of this is slowly being lost.

So far as selling off the Holden brand in Australia goes? Well that will be just another decision on the meeting agenda of these new young UNI grad execs one day in Headquarters before they move on to the next item on the list.... no big deal for them really.

Ford and GM-h can bang on all they like about keeping styling and testing/durability facilities here but in the end it will shrink and disappear.

And as far as our Holdens being rebadged Peugeots goes? Well I reckon it is London to a Brick on that most of our stuff will end up from China.

S o one day we could well see a Great Wall built Commodore SS or a Cherry made Hsv........adds new meaning to the word crap.

Cheers.

"HOLDEN MONARO. OUT TO DRIVE YOU WILD!"
HK1837 Offline
#16 Posted : Thursday, 9 March 2017 10:30:32 AM(UTC)
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I must say Nick you are spot on with some vehicles having the ability to move people around effortlessly and easily. I've owned only three cars in my life that I could get into, and drive until I either needed fuel or I needed to get rid of some (as in take a leak!), and get out of and not be stiff and sore or need a break. The first was my SII RXY, simply awesome long distance car to drive. The Second my V2 CV8. The third my Mrs' RX350. Anything I'd get a sore arse, legs, back etc. I drove to and from Melbourne in the last month in my 2011 SR5, and whilst it is a good car on the highway the seats and seating position are not great, and I get out stiff as a board. People tell me how good 100 200 Series 'cruisers are for long distances, so I have been thinking about getting an LX570 Lexus 'cruiser as a used car for that reason alone, or buying the 4.6L V8 Toyota version and supercharging it. The only other car I've ever hired/borrowed etc that was as good as my CV8 for long distances was a Ford G6E, but lacking in power as it wasn't a turbo. I guess imported luxury stuff like BMW, Mercedes etc would do the same, but they are unaffordable to own even if you can buy one cheap enough due to spares and servicing costs - that is where the Lexus are actually good, as you can buy a good used car and normal replaceable parts and servicing are Toyota pricing.

What you want to do with that Patrol is buy a VFII V8 auto writeoff, and buy an LS3/6L80E conversion kit from Marks 4WD. They sell every bit you need for the conversion. With an engine stand, workbench, decent tools and an engine crane you'd do the whole conversion bar the exhaust in a week taking it easily. You'd end up with the most awesome 4WD going around.
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#17 Posted : Thursday, 9 March 2017 8:27:55 PM(UTC)
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How many people realise the Mistubishi ASX platform is also underneath the Peugeot 4008, and some other Citroen?
And what about all the co-development between Nissan & Renault?
Even Mercedes have co-developed a dual-cab ute from the Navara platform.

Today's car industry is really a global melting pot of shared development costs, and commonality where it's not being seen.
Australia were pioneers in this respect with many shared components across numerous brands. Components from the likes of BTR, PBR, Hella, Bosch etc - even back in the early 80s, and possibly the 70s, with the basic Bosch ignition systems sharing many core components.
The "Industry Seat" is the perfect example of the sort of collaboration going on these days - but the Aussies were doing that 30 years ago!

The car industry has to do it to survive, and the modern day euros & yank cars have to share driveline development costs to remain competitive. BMW engine in the current Mini? PSA engines in various marques? Even in the 70s Audi/VW & Porsche were developing & sharing engines - was it doomsday for them? Audi's surge in modern popularity, Skoda making a somewhat successful return to the Oz market, and even how VW still came out OK after "dieselgate" are good examples of where co-development has meant the opposite to doom & gloom, and ensure popularity, growth, and profitability.

So this whole "PSA buys Opel/Vauxhall, so Holden is doomed" thinking is way off the mark. They won't kill off many decades (perhaps close to a century?) of brand history - like GM never killed off the Vauxhall name, and want to hang onto the Holden name. What I see coming from this is much more co-development & sharing of platforms & drivelines, simply with different body styles & interiors - very much how the 4008/ASX don't look anything alike, despite sharing the same platform.
Cheers,

Mick
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wbute Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, 9 March 2017 9:34:20 PM(UTC)
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Are you sure Mick? John Deere were not too concerned with the Australian brand Chamberlain. Chamberlain was the biggest selling tractor in Australia. They just shut them down.
Why would a US company keep an Australian car brand open that doesn't even make anything?
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#19 Posted : Thursday, 9 March 2017 10:40:17 PM(UTC)
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The Vauxhall brand continued on in the UK, despite the majority of their vehicles being sourced from Opel (and other GM global operations).
GM do see the value in the history of a brand, and have already publicly announced several times that the Holden brand is staying.

The purchase of Opel/Vauxhall by PSA has no effect on the Holden brand - it's still owned by GM in the USA!

There's 2 very glaring problems with your "comparison" - JD bought chamberlain over 40 years ago, so it's hardly relevant to a very different market that we have today, and cars have a much wider audience with the general public than tractors.
The majority of Australians live in highly populated areas. Ask 100 of them who live in a metro area to name a car brand, and most will know Holden. Ask them to name a tractor brand and most would be stumped. 2 very different markets.

Using a more modern JD brand example, JD bought Waratah in 2000 and they haven't killed off that brand......
https://www.deere.com/en...waratah_attachments.page

Edited by user Thursday, 9 March 2017 10:41:14 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Cheers,

Mick
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Judge a successful man not on how he treats his peers, but on how he treats those less fortunate.
wbute Offline
#20 Posted : Friday, 10 March 2017 6:02:14 AM(UTC)
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Not really different at all. You think Agriculture means minor compared to automotive. If you walk into JD to purchase a tractor (which I did 8 months ago) you are forking out far more money than any Holden owner does. Middle of the range 6170M. $170000. Go up into the 8 series and you are talking $300000. Headers, $500000. Now they may sell less numbers than a car manufacturer but to the buyers brand name is more important when you are forking out that kind of cash.
JD bought out the biggest company in Australia in the 70's and shut it down in the 80's. It's just as relevant now as it was then.
GM have absolutely no need for Holden. What do they actually offer? A minuscule market and they build nothing at all.
As for GM saying they "the brand is staying". Having been working in mining for the last 5 years, I can guarantee you that huge companies spin whatever line they feel gives them the best outcome for immediate smooth sailing.
I may be wrong but my "guesses" are no less accurate than anyone else's. Past experience says that Holden is not "immortal" though.
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