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HT numbers built etc - offcial trim/colour/engine combos???
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Ironpo Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 7:27:42 AM(UTC)
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hi all ive been a lurker and old holden lover owner for years , but I finally need to post a question
im looking at buying a rather expension HT ute that is claimed to have a one off combo of engine/trim/colour
does holden have a data base about what vehicles where made in a certain year and also the numbers of cars made being a certain colour/engine combo etc
thanks in advance
ironpo
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HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 9:22:42 AM(UTC)
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No, Holden do not currently have that.

Think about it, they used an IBM 360 mainframe in the late 60's and up into the 80's. Memory and storage was the limiting factor in those days. Data was stored in codes, and even with the limited info Holden has today which is microfiche archives of the Service/Warranty printout done in mid 1978 when they changed to the new industry wide warranty reporting system, Holden today cannot even decode that info correctly. Even if the original mainframe records existed, it'd be on magnetic media, and you'd need to find early 1970's equipment to even read the media. We were using 5.25" and 3.5" floppy discs in the 80's and 90's. Who has one of these anymore to read those floppys? And the GMH data will be equipment a whole generation older.

With claims like "ONE-OFF" build, take it with a grain of salt. Seller is just blowing smoke to inflate his selling price. What is it? 307 auto, black with red trim or something like that? It wouldn't matter if there was 100 of them made, still a desirable car.

Have a read about the IBM 360 here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360

Specifically:
Few of these machines remain. Despite being sold or leased in very large numbers for a mainframe system of its era, only a few System/360 computers still exist, and few of them still run. Most machines were scrapped when they could no longer profitably be leased, certainly for the value of the gold and other precious metal content of their circuits but possibly also to keep these machines from competing with IBM's newer computers, such as the System/370. As with all classic mainframe systems, complete System/360 computers were prohibitively large to put in storage, and too expensive to maintain.

The Smithsonian Institution owns a Model 65, though it is no longer on public display. The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA has a non-working Model 30 on display, as do the Museum of Transport and Technology (Motat) in Auckland, New Zealand and the Vienna University of Technology in Austria. The University of Western Australia Computer Club has a complete Model 40 in storage.[44] The IBM museum in Sindelfingen has two System/360s – a Model 20 and a Model 91. The control panel of the most complex System/360 model type built, the FAA IBM 9020, comprising up to 12 System/360 Model 65s and Model 50s in its maximum configuration is on display in the Computer Science department of Stanford University as IBM 360 display and Stanford Big Iron. It was manufactured in 1971 and decommissioned in 1993. The IBM Endicott History and Heritage Center in Endicott, NY has a non-working System/360 Model 30 and an associated 2401 magnetic tape drive on display.

The Living Computer Museum has a Model 20 running, with emulated card reader and punch, on public display.


GMH probably upgraded to a later IBM system but whether or not they migrated the old records over is not known.

Edited by user Tuesday, 23 May 2017 9:28:17 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Ironpo Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 10:06:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
No, Holden do not currently have that.

Think about it, they used an IBM 360 mainframe in the late 60's and up into the 80's. Memory and storage was the limiting factor in those days. Data was stored in codes, and even with the limited info Holden has today which is microfiche archives of the Service/Warranty printout done in mid 1978 when they changed to the new industry wide warranty reporting system, Holden today cannot even decode that info correctly. Even if the original mainframe records existed, it'd be on magnetic media, and you'd need to find early 1970's equipment to even read the media. We were using 5.25" and 3.5" floppy discs in the 80's and 90's. Who has one of these anymore to read those floppys? And the GMH data will be equipment a whole generation older.

With claims like "ONE-OFF" build, take it with a grain of salt. Seller is just blowing smoke to inflate his selling price. What is it? 307 auto, black with red trim or something like that? It wouldn't matter if there was 100 of them made, still a desirable car.

Have a read about the IBM 360 here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360

Specifically:
Few of these machines remain. Despite being sold or leased in very large numbers for a mainframe system of its era, only a few System/360 computers still exist, and few of them still run. Most machines were scrapped when they could no longer profitably be leased, certainly for the value of the gold and other precious metal content of their circuits but possibly also to keep these machines from competing with IBM's newer computers, such as the System/370. As with all classic mainframe systems, complete System/360 computers were prohibitively large to put in storage, and too expensive to maintain.

The Smithsonian Institution owns a Model 65, though it is no longer on public display. The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA has a non-working Model 30 on display, as do the Museum of Transport and Technology (Motat) in Auckland, New Zealand and the Vienna University of Technology in Austria. The University of Western Australia Computer Club has a complete Model 40 in storage.[44] The IBM museum in Sindelfingen has two System/360s – a Model 20 and a Model 91. The control panel of the most complex System/360 model type built, the FAA IBM 9020, comprising up to 12 System/360 Model 65s and Model 50s in its maximum configuration is on display in the Computer Science department of Stanford University as IBM 360 display and Stanford Big Iron. It was manufactured in 1971 and decommissioned in 1993. The IBM Endicott History and Heritage Center in Endicott, NY has a non-working System/360 Model 30 and an associated 2401 magnetic tape drive on display.

The Living Computer Museum has a Model 20 running, with emulated card reader and punch, on public display.


GMH probably upgraded to a later IBM system but whether or not they migrated the old records over is not known.

thanks for your reply
yes it would have to be a huge data base but other car makers have it so just wondering in there was something out there for GMH
307 with red trim in black does sound nice I wonder if I can find one :-) !!!
I love the info on the IBM 360 by the way . I reckon we used these at school back in the day :-)
cheers
IP

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gm5735 Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 10:09:22 AM(UTC)
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If the old records exist you wouldn't actually need an IBM360. There are several emulators, most of them freeware, that simulate the IBM360 BAL language. Reading the MAG tapes is a little more difficult, but easy enough.
The function of the whole 4-5 tons of IBM360 fits in a small corner of a laptop hard drive.
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Ironpo on 23/05/2017(UTC)
Ironpo Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 10:29:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: gm5735 Go to Quoted Post
If the old records exist you wouldn't actually need an IBM360. There are several emulators, most of them freeware, that simulate the IBM360 BAL language. Reading the MAG tapes is a little more difficult, but easy enough.
The function of the whole 4-5 tons of IBM360 fits in a small corner of a laptop hard drive.

that's cool
amazing how far things have come

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HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 11:44:09 AM(UTC)
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Geoff is right, you wouldn't need the original IBM360, there are later desktops that will read the data. BUT, after you have somehow transfer ALL the data with no errors from ageing magnetic media onto modern storage, you need the reports to generate the data you are looking for from the raw data. It wouldn't be a huge database, probably would fit on a USB stick, but it would be all 1's and 0's unless you had the reports to read and make sense of the data. In theory you'd be able to print a broadcast sheet for any car if you had the correct report/program. The microfiched printouts that some people have are simply a report run and printed by a search parameter. Sure with enough time you could decode it all from the raw data using data from known vehicles, but it'd be a monumental task with no tangible gain other than to be able to say things like: 1036 x HK Holden Belmont sedans built in white with blue trim with 186, M15 all synchro 3 speed and LSD rear axle.
At the end of the day, why would GMH bother to have kept the data? They only kept paper records for warranty purposes, and possibly up to the statute of limitations for design flaws. But today the data is essentially worthless to Holden.
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Ausjacko Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 5:28:25 PM(UTC)
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Hi HK
True enough but Mr Marti has made a good business out of just what you are referring to for the Mustang. The market is not always guided by reason and good decision.
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wbute Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 6:21:06 PM(UTC)
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Shows how useless computers are compared with paper records. The systems we use now will be obsolete in thirty years time. All the info on sites like this will disappear into the ether just like the old IBM360 stuff.
I actually did a few days work experience at a place that stored data for companies in 1988. It was all stored on big tapes like the old reel to reel things. 2 days was enough for me to know a life in computers wasn't for me.
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HK1837 Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 7:13:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ausjacko Go to Quoted Post
Hi HK
True enough but Mr Marti has made a good business out of just what you are referring to for the Mustang. The market is not always guided by reason and good decision.


I didn't say the info isn't gold to car enthusiasts and is the Holy Grail to some people, just it is worthless to Holden.

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KBM Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, 23 May 2017 8:03:04 PM(UTC)
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back when I was working in the area near fishermans bend I was told there was a fire in the records room and that most of the pre computer records were lost.
that was 30 years ago and I still haven't herd it repeated so who knows maybe there aren't any records to decipher.not from the bend anyway.
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Tour Director Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, 24 May 2017 9:47:49 AM(UTC)
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I spent 30 years working as a supplier to GMH/ HSPO and while I was able to get a lot of drawings and information for the restoration of parts it was an extremely difficult task. Firstly it seems that there were drawings of ALL parts stored at Fishermen's Bend', but no one to sign off on access.Secondly all the information stored at Dandenong was only for any vehicle actually assembled there. This was available on microfiche with added issues.
An appointment had to be made to use the old reader printer and then it took 5 minutes to warm up. Then you had to find the card to insert to make a print. Often the cards were out of order and sometimes you had to find the supplementary cards. If the printer was playing up and out of toner, paper or regular service then the whole process had to be rescheduled. The offer to provide a computer and scanner was rejected due to the policy of no outside computers allowed on the premises. With the renovations and reduction of their offices, along with computers, the need for the old microfiche reduced. Eventually the machine and cards were pushed under a stairwell out of the way. Repeated requests to take care of this equipment and cards fell on deaf ears and the many management changes didn't help in the process. Their policy that all information is Confidential, even after all these years, doesn't help either.

The movement of all staff from Dandenong to Port Melbourne only added to the frustration and made access even more difficult. Now that GMH have had all older staff replaced with graduates there is basically no one there that has the interest or knowledge of the older vehicles. In fact their current in house magazine congratulates people with 5 years experience of working there. As they approach the close down there will be less employees and possibly no one that can assist or even interested in the past.

Even as a participant and sitting as a member on the Supplier Council and meeting with the MD and top management couldn't get any resolution. The future looks even bleaker as the land and storage facilities at Port Melbourne/ Fishermen's Bend are considered valuable and are to be turned into residential in conjunction with the Victorian Government. I am sure the same thing is happening in South Australia. Over the years we have already seen Trentham (New Zealand) Acacia Ridge, Pagewood and others close down. Not only the assembly plants were totalled but all the office facilities and records were either destroyed or returned to Head Office.

The interest in today's market is to look at the future either with imported cars and eventually driverless ones. Look at Ford today giving their number one the bump and making huge staff cuts.Here in Australia they will keep their engineers,IT and some others but like GMH scale down.
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HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, 24 May 2017 10:48:24 AM(UTC)
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Everything from Pagewood went to the tip. Some was rescued before or during the dumping process but most ended up as landfill.
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KBM Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, 24 May 2017 7:34:37 PM(UTC)
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Tour Director, THANKS for your effort
maybe one of the graduates may realise what they have before it's to late.
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#14 Posted : Thursday, 25 May 2017 12:30:21 AM(UTC)
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Sales lists and details of individual cars were probably never kept, I dont know.

Theres an archiving team currently going through some of the historic documents at Fishermans Bend and Elizabeth rediscovering what they actually have.
Only started looking at it a few months ago and theres not much left at Elizabeth.
All of the engineering drawings are at Fishermans Bend dating back to the 1940's and probably earlier.
I dont think any of that stuff has been lost from history as long as GM in the US dont grab it all in a few months.
The plan is to work out what has historic value for Australian motoring heritage and the latest consensus is . . . ALL OF IT.

They wont be throwing much out, maybe plant layout and equipment drawings or switchboard wiring diagrams and sh!t like that can go.
Enthusiasts like us will never get access to it so what is the real value of it all?
"I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood" (George Carlin)
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Tour Director Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, 25 May 2017 11:32:30 AM(UTC)
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Rig Pig the idea of someone going through the records and making a decision sounds good. But the reality is that they don't have too many that have been there longer than 10 years that are capable with knowledge or interest. It would appear to be a dead end job for anyone allocated to do the work. They gradually paid off ALL the long termers and those who cared so the payout when they close is significantly reduced. You also have the fact that half the drawing files etc. were on Microfiche so the capability of reading them depends on having firstly a machine that works and secondly the time it takes to sort out the cards. Having used their equipment for many years I know how difficult it is.

As I mentioned earlier the trend is toward the future. At one meeting in 2015 most of the GMH people at that time didn't know about Football, meat pies and kangaroos and further more they didn't care. While a lot of us were either driving an EH, or possibly conceived in one, most of them when not even in Australia then. The reality is that in the global market today we have car company senior management spend time in Australia as part of their learning process. Some to learn manufacturing and some to close down plants. You only have to look at the number of USA MD's that have come and gone for both GMH and Ford. The ones today are Australian to assist with the closure of the plants and try to promote cars from overseas.

The only one who cared for the restoration was the GMH MD Mark Reuss who pushed the program with Rare Spares. The reason behind this was firstly he came from a past role as being in charge of the GM Museum in Detroit. Secondly he purchased, drove and sold a Humpy before taking a fully restored FC back home. No other person has shown a similar interest.

Both Ford and GMH had a lot of important items in their Archives such as old brochures, trophies and other memorabilia. The problem is what do they keep and consider viable and then how do they record it and store it, and if so for how long. Ford have already turned their basement area over to the future development program and GMH will probably do something similar.

There is probably a lot of value in there for the restoration enthusiast and the future but as you have recognised they would not entertain car clubs or individuals getting access or even assisting.

Edited by user Thursday, 25 May 2017 11:34:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Devo Offline
#16 Posted : Thursday, 25 May 2017 2:25:35 PM(UTC)
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I might be confused but isn't ben at holden historical services going through the HK Ht Hg data in the near future. With this data supplying everything.
Chassis no
ID plate details
Driveline configuration and numbers
Selling dealer

Etc etc. Won't this be the information that will identify how many of each model were built ???
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#17 Posted : Thursday, 25 May 2017 6:47:08 PM(UTC)
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Its sounds good to go through the records and come up with all this data, but the task is way tooo time consuming.

The LC/LJ Torana records are out there, and people have gone through and counted up all the GTRs including XU1, but no one has gone through and counted all the SLs, broken them into 4 and 6, and then broken those down to auto and manual. The records do show engine, trans, brakes, diff ratio, so lets say Holden made 10 different versions of the SL from these shown options, how long would it take to put this data into a spread sheet manually?

If we go to HK with 8 field and 200000 cars, with 5 digit model numbers and 7 digit engine numbers, each car entry would be 21 digit strokes and 10 TABs to enter each car into a data base, making a total of 6.2 Million key stroke, or 5 letters per word = 1.24 Million words, at 100 words per minute for a typist = 12.4 thousand minutes = 2000 hours, @ 8 hours per day = 1550 days working 7 days a week = 4.24 years. Ben is gong to be a very old man when he finishes HK to HG.

This is why people have only done the specific models.

Warren
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KBM Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, 25 May 2017 6:52:49 PM(UTC)
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I enquired with hhs and they said HK TG was not in the near future and that they didn't know what they had except for model id.
they're doing a good job but HK onwards might have to sit tight for a while.
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Devo Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, 25 May 2017 8:18:32 PM(UTC)
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How does Ben hold these records ?
Is it catalogued somehow so individual searches yield result. Chassis number for example.
Reason is while a spreadsheet compiling all model info would require all data to be entered. Specific car searches may still be achievable.
I assume if this was possible Ben would already be doing it considering the big $$$ the top models are pulling.
If I bought one of those lloyds auction cars I would happily give Ben thousands to research that one car.

Just a thought.
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albyht Offline
#20 Posted : Thursday, 25 May 2017 9:19:48 PM(UTC)
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Devo, I agree with you. If you were spending big dollars on a car you should do your homework BUT how many people would actually do this? In reality Ben at Historical holden services probably doesnt do this expecting to make huge dollars out of it. It is probably a passion that can also put some change in his pocket to help cover expenses. I think the comment about a future driven focus by car companies is pretty accurate. That is the way of society these days to stay competitive. Its reality and sensible to be forward thinking.
Driverless cars on our roads really are just a very short few years away from reality and people like ourselves who own, admire and respect older cars, well,... we are generally on the irrelevent fringe to your average person these days. Few people are interested. If you drive your classic 50s- 70's holden down the road these days, most people under the age of 40 or so wouldnt know what they are looking at nor would they particularly care. Sure you get passionate and interested people at car shows but they go because they share our interest.
This is another reason why it will continue to be difficult to get hold of this data to archive. How many people would really actually give up their time and money to help archive this? A small handful perhaps? You probably woulnd't do it for the money v's time invested. Time would be the killer for me.
Just a thought
Alby
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