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HK1837 Online
#1 Posted : Saturday, 21 October 2017 7:16:00 AM(UTC)
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Today is the first day since I was born that a car with a Holden badge on it hasn't been built in Australia. Probably a similar story for most of us here.

Edited by user Saturday, 21 October 2017 7:16:51 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
castellan Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, 21 October 2017 8:12:41 AM(UTC)
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Good news is that their is a Nanoflowcell saltwater electric powered, by salt water that has been made with 920KW and can do 350KM/H

So their is hope for the future of some sort at least to look forward to.
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#3 Posted : Saturday, 21 October 2017 8:35:25 AM(UTC)
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Angry Same HK...They were building them many years before I was born....Holden's were like the family dog, when when one passed on we just got another one,

My dad owned them...He was a Ford man then his brother got a Holden back in the 50's.It was a great car and that was it all the brothers bought them.Great memories ...Sad day.

My old dad loved themLove ....I bet he is turning in his grave....He had a better run out of them than me,there were reasons for that tho...lol.

ExportHolden Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 10:31:50 AM(UTC)
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I too have never known Australia without locally made Holdens. I have been ruminating since Friday what it means to not have the brand making cars here anymore.

I guess I am a Holden man – such an odd thing no doubt to younger generations. Funny how my Dad ran Peugeots when I was younger, but it was my grandfather's Holdens that caught my imagination. He ran two EJs on his farm – a Special sedan (with rear wheel spats no less!) and a ute. Then in 1972 he replaced the Special with a 1971 HQ Premier. I loved that car. I was the first car I drove. I have not run Holdens exclusively, but my garage from now on will always have at least one locally made Holden. In fact I'm thinking of getting a VE Berlina V8 to join my WB Statesman.

Below is a link to a brillant story that puts into context what happened to Holden's leadership in recent years. It is very much one man's perspective, but I can't help but think Hanenburger was on the money generally speaking with how he saw things panning out after he left.

If later Holden MDs carried through his vision, we might still have a car industry today. Ford was going anyway, but Toyota would have stayed if Holden did. They both needed to stay for second-tier suppliers to have enough volume to stay in business.

It only took Joe Hockey (remember him, Australia's best-ever Treasurer, you know, with the best budget we ever were presented with?) to threaten to cut subsidies for Holden and Toyota to throw in the towel. For those who bleat on about Aussie taxpayers supporting US companies sending profits overseas, you're forgetting something. All first world governments give their car manufaturers subsidies or some sort. Australia did, and still does, subsidise industries. Mining, banking, still get billions of taxpayers dollars in subsidies. The car industry - even just Toyota and Holden - gave so many people jobs and if run properly could have been highly profitable. While the post-GFC high dollar killed off exports, look at the dollar now. Holden made $10,000 profit on each Caprice it sent to the Middle East. It could have beening making that or more now, if it has played its cards right.

It was more than just useless Yanks running Holden but to think, what could have been...

https://www.carsales.com...ot-my-gm-anymore-109467/
griffo Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 12:35:43 PM(UTC)
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Thx for that Export...That was a interesting read,your comment and the link.

The rise and fall of GMH has been done to death all over the radio and print/social media i know...

The one thing that gets me is how when parity was equal they dropped the subsidy ...I mean parity was never going to last it never has with the greenback ..

BUT....They let the bloody multi nationals get away with mega millions in unpaid tax. I think its in the pipeline to come down on them now but not back then. Seriously!
wbute Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 12:46:43 PM(UTC)
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As far as I can see, it's like all big companies. Unless they are lucky enough to have someone with enough strength to pursue logical direction, the accountants take control. Clearly that's what has happened with GM/H. I guarantee if they had continued developing the Torana sized car that was displayed at the Sydney motor show Holden would have continued strong sales. For some reason they were obsessed with the larger format Commodore. It is too small for the US and too big for Europe. Clearly Hanenberger could see where they needed to go.
You can not blame any government for the problems with a car manufacturer. They are in business, and they need to make money.
As for subsidies? If the manufacturers are not able to manufacture what the public wants, should we pay our tax dollars to them just to give us jobs? That to me seems utterly pointless. Should we pay grape growers to grow more grapes, even though there is no market for them, but they employ people?
ExportHolden Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 1:27:10 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
.
You can not blame any government for the problems with a car manufacturer. They are in business, and they need to make money.
As for subsidies? If the manufacturers are not able to manufacture what the public wants, should we pay our tax dollars to them just to give us jobs? That to me seems utterly pointless. Should we pay grape growers to grow more grapes, even though there is no market for them, but they employ people?


That's a fair point wbute. Toyota was doing okay AFIAK, esp with exports, but you're right, Holden in 2013 was well and truly just bumbling along with no vision, nothing locally made that people really wanted to buy . As far as I can see, it didn't actually have anything coming that a lot of Aussies wanted either.

I wish Hockey could have been more subtle, perhaps encouraged Holden to get its act together rather than just bluntly threatening it. I don't think he was a visionary any more than Holden mangement was at that point. Holden by then was probably doomed to failure regardless.

As for throwing our money away, the govt still does that. Why do mining and banking sectors get such big subsidies?

It doesn't really matter now. Holden's gone, nd that's it.

wbute Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 2:41:56 PM(UTC)
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I can't really comment on mining subsidies. I am not sure what they get but I don't think tax concessions or fuel rebates can be called a subsidy. Fuel used off road should not be charged the road tax and tax breaks are not a subsidy. They are tax incentives to encourage more export income.
What really sucks is the lack of foresight our current leaders and company directors seem to have. It must have been a great place during the first half of last century when the last real development was encouraged in Australia. Now it's just appeasing voters to get elected at the next ballot. Maybe we are all to blame.
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#9 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 4:45:57 PM(UTC)
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Well if this country ever has to go on war footing like it has in the past...WHAT the bloody hell have we???

Its like the refineries....KAPUT ...All our oil is refined OS and imported back to here......This country only ever has 4 weeks supply ...Brilliant. considering we are a Island.

In the last big blow up the car manufactures were flat out making not just vehicles for the effort but were manufacturing aircraft,tank parts...I think they even made the Beaufighter here.

With the price of electricity more will go....
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#10 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 5:15:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: ExportHolden Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
.
You can not blame any government for the problems with a car manufacturer. They are in business, and they need to make money.
As for subsidies? If the manufacturers are not able to manufacture what the public wants, should we pay our tax dollars to them just to give us jobs? That to me seems utterly pointless. Should we pay grape growers to grow more grapes, even though there is no market for them, but they employ people?


That's a fair point wbute. Toyota was doing okay AFIAK, esp with exports, but you're right, Holden in 2013 was well and truly just bumbling along with no vision, nothing locally made that people really wanted to buy . As far as I can see, it didn't actually have anything coming that a lot of Aussies wanted either.

I wish Hockey could have been more subtle, perhaps encouraged Holden to get its act together rather than just bluntly threatening it. I don't think he was a visionary any more than Holden mangement was at that point. Holden by then was probably doomed to failure regardless.

As for throwing our money away, the govt still does that. Why do mining and banking sectors get such big subsidies?

It doesn't really matter now. Holden's gone, nd that's it.



As an ex banker......what subsidy do the banks get ?? Last I saw the big 5 got an extra tax.

I now work for the "Big Australian". If you took banking and mining out of australia we would become a 3rd world nation.

Edited by user Sunday, 22 October 2017 5:23:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

wbute Offline
#11 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 6:04:17 PM(UTC)
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Not sure about banking. It's just a necessary evil. Farming and mining a definitely the mainstay of Australia.

Yeah we are buggered if we ever came to world war again. Our fuel supply would cripple us until they managed to ramp up our own wells. As for skills though, it won't take long and we will be unable to build anything anyway. The trades will just have petered out. I have read several posts on other forums about trying to find a machine shop to build a 308! That's a skill that's nearly gone already.
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#12 Posted : Sunday, 22 October 2017 9:14:51 PM(UTC)
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I find it very ironic that Toyota used to build the Corolla here, alongside the Camry. They dropped it when they wanted to build the Avalon locally (and what a flop that was).
Fast forward a decade or so and the Corolla sat firmly in the top few spots of the sales charts, battling it out with the Mazda 3, Hilux & I30.

How different it may have been for Toyota if they still made Corollas alongside the Camry - some 40,000 Corollas sold here last year, compared to 26,500 odd locally sold Camry/Aurion models. Admittedly Toyota exported probably close to double that amount (or more), but an extra 40,000 Corollas made locally could have been a lifeline - especially when you consider the Commodore only managed 26,000 local sales in 2016, and barely managed 30,000 for each of the 3 years prior - a far cry from VTs doing 90,000+ annually (locally) plus all the exports.
Cheers,

Mick
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castellan Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, 23 October 2017 8:13:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Well if this country ever has to go on war footing like it has in the past...WHAT the bloody hell have we???

Its like the refineries....KAPUT ...All our oil is refined OS and imported back to here......This country only ever has 4 weeks supply ...Brilliant. considering we are a Island.

In the last big blow up the car manufactures were flat out making not just vehicles for the effort but were manufacturing aircraft,tank parts...I think they even made the Beaufighter here.

With the price of electricity more will go....


Coal fired power plant's in QLD have made power for the last 10 years at $4 a what ever and wind sola etc is $27 for the same amount of power, not to mention that all the new power company's are ripping us off big time, I wonder how many political people have big investments in such.
QLD Premier comes out dangling the carrot of $50 a year off your power bill to sweeten the idiots, as a election is coming up soon in QLD.

This country is Roo Ted if the USA crashes, the UK is RS and we will just wave the white flag directly as our ADF is run by Queers at the top.
griffo Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, 23 October 2017 2:17:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Well if this country ever has to go on war footing like it has in the past...WHAT the bloody hell have we???

Its like the refineries....KAPUT ...All our oil is refined OS and imported back to here......This country only ever has 4 weeks supply ...Brilliant. considering we are a Island.

In the last big blow up the car manufactures were flat out making not just vehicles for the effort but were manufacturing aircraft,tank parts...I think they even made the Beaufighter here.

With the price of electricity more will go....


Coal fired power plant's in QLD have made power for the last 10 years at $4 a what ever and wind sola etc is $27 for the same amount of power, not to mention that all the new power company's are ripping us off big time, I wonder how many political people have big investments in such.
QLD Premier comes out dangling the carrot of $50 a year off your power bill to sweeten the idiots, as a election is coming up soon in QLD.

This country is Roo Ted if the USA crashes, the UK is RS and we will just wave the white flag directly as our ADF is run by Queers at the top.


These bloody stupid payment offers from the Federal as well as Qld Govt are a joke....The Feds have offered $100/$150 a year and the state up here $50 a year........I mean really!!!

My bloody power bill has gone up $200 or more a quarter plus now I have to pay to have the FXYZ thing read......Will someone pass me my rifle!!!

Whats the difference between a Politician and a catfish?

Ones a slimy bottom dwelling scum sucker and the other is a FISH.
HK1837 Online
#15 Posted : Monday, 23 October 2017 2:49:11 PM(UTC)
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Yes, we are certainly paying for that period between Howard and Abbott, and it is getting worse!
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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#16 Posted : Tuesday, 24 October 2017 2:14:22 AM(UTC)
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mining companies and in fact any commercial vehicle over I think 5 tonnes benefit from not paying fuel tax for on road use, they get this by giving the companies a refund of fuel tax, in WA the state gov and feds give about 32 cents a litre, so they do pay some tax but only a few cents and tax deductions takes care of the rest.
you can bet that does not come out of general revenue but out of the fuel tax the ordinary motorist pays, so it can't go back into better safer roads.
You are subsidising linfox, tnt, mobile, and all the rest for their on road fuel, and then the truckies have the nerve to bitch about the state of the roads they don't pay for.
Every country subsidises its car industry one way or the other, italy used to pay a subsidy depending on how much iron was used in the cars, the usa gives bankruptcy protections, france the govt owns a large percentage of the industry, china govt owns all but hides behind front men.
only Australia is stupid enough to let the car industry go, malcolm demonstrates his contempt for the australian economy and workers by banning australians from bidding for the 32 billion dollar submarines contracts making sure 100% of the money -our money- goes overseas and not requiring any local content at all. they should be hung as traitors. just like they are happy to send australians overseas to be shot at and then treat them with contempt when they return, except for anac day and armistice day when they have the nerve to stand up and spout about how we owe our troops everything. remember the Melbourne collision, the govt is still fighting to avoid compensation to the sailors, and will until there is only one or two left then they will make a big deal out of it. and labour is no better in that.
but they still keep getting elected by smug and selfish voters.

Edited by user Tuesday, 24 October 2017 2:15:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#17 Posted : Tuesday, 24 October 2017 5:40:50 AM(UTC)
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John - I am involved (from a supplier perspective) with the subs, and there's a big push on sourcing locally. Yes, the design, and some of the Engineers are from overseas, and so is the winning bidder, but they are exchanging personnel - sending Aussies over to HQ, and the emphasis is clearly on sourcing a lot of non-critical or protected (design) components locally.
Cheers,

Mick
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wbute Offline
#18 Posted : Tuesday, 24 October 2017 6:05:05 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: johnperth Go to Quoted Post
mining companies and in fact any commercial vehicle over I think 5 tonnes benefit from not paying fuel tax for on road use, they get this by giving the companies a refund of fuel tax, in WA the state gov and feds give about 32 cents a litre, so they do pay some tax but only a few cents and tax deductions takes care of the rest.
you can bet that does not come out of general revenue but out of the fuel tax the ordinary motorist pays, so it can't go back into better safer roads.
You are subsidising linfox, tnt, mobile, and all the rest for their on road fuel, and then the truckies have the nerve to bitch about the state of the roads they don't pay for.
Every country subsidises its car industry one way or the other, italy used to pay a subsidy depending on how much iron was used in the cars, the usa gives bankruptcy protections, france the govt owns a large percentage of the industry, china govt owns all but hides behind front men.
only Australia is stupid enough to let the car industry go, malcolm demonstrates his contempt for the australian economy and workers by banning australians from bidding for the 32 billion dollar submarines contracts making sure 100% of the money -our money- goes overseas and not requiring any local content at all. they should be hung as traitors. just like they are happy to send australians overseas to be shot at and then treat them with contempt when they return, except for anac day and armistice day when they have the nerve to stand up and spout about how we owe our troops everything. remember the Melbourne collision, the govt is still fighting to avoid compensation to the sailors, and will until there is only one or two left then they will make a big deal out of it. and labour is no better in that.
but they still keep getting elected by smug and selfish voters.

You have the fuel rebate incorrect. Mining industry and farming industry both get the road tax included in diesel rebates. As far as I can see that's entirely acceptable as none of that fuel gets used on road. As far as on road trucks go, there is no fuel rebate.
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#19 Posted : Thursday, 26 October 2017 1:48:35 AM(UTC)
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As far as commonwealth tax goes the current rebate for on road use is 13.6 cents per litre.
For vehicles over 4.5 tonnes.
For any business.
See ATO website. Haven't been able to find the WA rebate but it's there somewhere and worth about 22cents per litre.
Look it up for yourself.
regards
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