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griffo Offline
#21 Posted : Wednesday, 14 February 2018 10:13:47 PM(UTC)
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They were a great work horse though (No particular model)...The Holden ute was easy to work on...Always got you home...parts were dirt cheap,

They are and were ICONIC....They were not all that expensive back in the day, and mate...how they sold....Holdens ruled out west...When it came to performance the valiants ate them...But the dust...Valiants were the worst for letting dust into the cabin...Falcons were good for not letting in dust as well.
I remember dad coming home with the HR with red seats....ALL I HAVE TO SAY WHAT A MOTOR VEHCLE !!! He won the outback with it...
That ute went where Land Drover failed.He used it like intended, went to church then to market so to speak....I can remember the trade in, $800 for the HR on a new HG ute.... $2,226 brand new..he went back for the first service had a radio installed, that cost $226 in 1971....That was a hell of a lot of dosh, 11 transistor push button.

I got of bit off track fellas...sorry.
HK1837 Offline
#22 Posted : Thursday, 15 February 2018 5:41:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
I only owned two. I made sure they were both original and not B&S utes. First one still had the Kingswood hubcaps. It was $9500 in 94, which was about top dollar for a original V8 Kingswood with sports dash. The second one I bought in 2000. $8500 and that was top dollar then too. But you had to look long and hard to find good ones even then. You could halve the price for a 6 banger. I still have the second one. The first one got stolen in Dubbo in 95.


They were expensive for the good ones. The ones I wrecked were tradies utes, would be the equivalent of knocked around 2005 diesel SR Hiluxes today that have been on worksites all their lives and probably never seen a garage. What you were buying was the top shelf cars, to use the same analogy V6 SR5's that have not been workhorses.

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HK1837 Offline
#23 Posted : Thursday, 15 February 2018 5:44:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
They were a great work horse though (No particular model)...The Holden ute was easy to work on...Always got you home...parts were dirt cheap,

They are and were ICONIC....They were not all that expensive back in the day, and mate...how they sold....Holdens ruled out west...When it came to performance the valiants ate them...But the dust...Valiants were the worst for letting dust into the cabin...Falcons were good for not letting in dust as well.
I remember dad coming home with the HR with red seats....ALL I HAVE TO SAY WHAT A MOTOR VEHCLE !!! He won the outback with it...
That ute went where Land Drover failed.He used it like intended, went to church then to market so to speak....I can remember the trade in, $800 for the HR on a new HG ute.... $2,226 brand new..he went back for the first service had a radio installed, that cost $226 in 1971....That was a hell of a lot of dosh, 11 transistor push button.

I got of bit off track fellas...sorry.


Isn't it funny the cost of what today you take for granted in even the cheapest car. 10% of the cost of a whole car for a radio! And the cost of aircon in those days, to get it factory fitted to a HK-HG increased the car's cost by a whopping amount.

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castellan Offline
#24 Posted : Thursday, 15 February 2018 11:50:17 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
They made plenty of mistakes at that time, some genuine market misreads, others financially driven. To me some of the mistakes were cancelling the Holden passenger range for Commodore and dropping V8 from the U size car. Imagine the W size car continuing into the early 90’s with updates, just like Ford’s reinvention of the old XD into XG and XH with updated engines, suspension etc. Remember that the EFI 3.8L and 5.0L and 4L60 were around in full production mid 1988, could have been even earlier if they hadn’t stuffed around with Nissan stuff. Even so that is really only 3 years after the last WB’s were sold. Continue into WC? with those engines, add tilt column, rear cab wall popout for more seat movement (like a GQ Patrol ute), Borg Warner rear end, better seats, maybe even a steering rack.

Sandman was cancelled in 1979, if they were selling they would have made WB Sandman. I think the problem was a HX or HZ Sandman didn’t look tough, whereas a HQ or HJ did. WB Sandman would have looked even softer again, like a UC SLR5000 would be compared to an LH or LX.


I don't think that tradesmen could afford the HZ or WB Sandman in 1978 to 84 I remember how bad it was, most industry's were near bankrupt and many tradesmen working for peanuts.

The HX Sandman look much better than the HQ-J and the HZ Sandman was the best looking.
The UC SLR 5000 well the commodore was coming and they wanted to make it a 4cyl market car mainly promoting the Sunbird mainly.
WB Kingswood or Premier sedan wagon as Holden could not afford to keep such going.
With the VL the only thing it had going for it was the Nissan 3.0L engine and the VN V6 was a blight.Brick wall

Boy it took Ford time to bring out the XG UTE Mar 1993 but most people were to stupid to understand just how much better the XG was to the XF, when I sold the XG people were a dumb as browns cows and the value was just the same as a XF I lost a lot of money on it.

I bought the XG as soon as they came out, the XG was a great ute, better than the V6 VR and even the series 1 VS V6 ute and I had the VS V6 at the same time driving both and I had to modify the VS suspension shocks and give it 1.4 neg camber to stop it understeer like a pig and even modified the crappy seat and all I did to the XG was bash the rear panel behind the seat so the seat could go back a bit further, but the Series 3 5.0L VS ute seats were much better than the Series 1 and yes I did have to mod the suspension and shooks on it as well, the V8 was much better to drive than the V6 as you had torque that on dirt roads you could hang the tail out on demand but the V6 could not do that all the time.

Ford should of made a 4X4 ute in the AU Falcon, made a bench seat and manual with it option and they could of take a lot of sales a way from the jap cars if they were bright, but the dealers did not want to sell Falcons at all, it was like trying to pull teeth doing deals with Fords Salesmen I had nothing but total toss pot Salesmen to deal with from 1991 on to 2016, that just did not want to do a deal, smart arse tossers that like you would not believe, If only I could of afforded to talk to my client's like thatWhistle Brick wall but I would never stoop that low and I have never come across such people in any other dealerships like that, as they have all been good, but with Ford total morons all the time, tell you what I was f ing pissed off with them, the dude I bought the XG was great bloke and ex cop, so he was not just a piss ant stuck up fat arse piss boy claiming to be somehow above me, because they wear a tie walking about in air-con all day trying to be a smart arse conman, or trying to get there head punched in and sue such as me to get ahead. Angel
HK1837 Offline
#25 Posted : Thursday, 15 February 2018 1:00:54 PM(UTC)
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Put it this way, a HX-HZ Sandman was pretty much the easiest and the cheapest way to get a V8 ute with decent dash. Only catch was no bench seat. Heaps of tradies used them, especially as used cars.

Garbage, a HX-HZ Sandman does not look better than a HQ-HJ! A HQ-HJ is essentially a GTS ute, a HX-HZ is a Kingswood ute with stripes. Why do you think GMH rushed to make the HX and later HZ stripes a delete option - people didn't want them. And what was the first thing people did to them? Stuck GTS guards on them.

I was talking about mistakes in hindsight. It tells me that GMH would have been far better keeping the V car as a Torana and keeping the W car, rather than turning the Torana into a U car and slotting an in between V car between the U and W cars. My point about a UC SLR5000 was that the WA or WB Sandman compared to a HJ Sandman would have looked like a UC SLR5000 compared to an LH-LX SLR5000 (if WA had been built there would have been no HX or HZ, just HQ into HV/HJ then WA).

GMH would have done better not having VB-VL in my opinion, just kept the Torana and the W Holden and Statesman. Then introduce the VN to replace the Holden into the 90's.

The only think going for the VL as far as I am concerned was the continuation of the 5.0L engine and the introduction of the EFI 5.0L. The Nissan engine might have been good compared to a clunky old 202 in a passenger hack, but it wouldn't have been any use in a W size car or as good as Ford's bigger 6cyl engines. The V6's would have been far more suited to commercial vehicles than that Nissan head cracker.

Like you say how good the XG and XH were. Imagine a W commercial, updated as much as the Fords were running injected 5.0L, even continue it as late as 2000. Should have been far more popular than any Commodore ute (VG-VS).

Holden should have done a lot too, but the GFC and near bankruptcy killed it all. The VE platform was meant to be just like the VT-VZ platform with coupes, cab-chassis, dual cabs and AWB. But they simply couldn't do it.

Near the end I tried to buy a Ford FGIII or FX. The salesman was pretty good, rang head office for me but got nowhere. I tried to buy an XR6T auto cab-chassis with the trim update package, really wanted it as a cab chassis but was prepared to take a ute if I had to and turf the back and fit a tray. All I wanted was the 3/4 tonne springs off the XL or even better the 1-tonne springs, rest was the same other than using the wheels and tyres off the XR6 cab-chassis. Sure I could have done it myself using spare part leafs and wheels and replaced the XR6's 500kg leafs and 19" wheels, but I wanted the factory GVW and hence GCM. Reason was whilst the XR6T could officially tow 2300kg, the load capacity meant that by the time you put a towbar on it, the required load levellers, added 230kg of towball load (10% of 2300kg) and had two passengers you were already above the GVW and hence GCM of the combination. They wouldn't do it to get the sale though, and to pay an Engineer to Engineer the upgrades prior to first rego added about $4000 to a $37,000 car without paying over $3000 for the factory rear springs, U-bolts and wheels.

Edited by user Thursday, 15 February 2018 1:02:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#26 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 12:19:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Put it this way, a HX-HZ Sandman was pretty much the easiest and the cheapest way to get a V8 ute with decent dash. Only catch was no bench seat. Heaps of tradies used them, especially as used cars.

Garbage, a HX-HZ Sandman does not look better than a HQ-HJ! A HQ-HJ is essentially a GTS ute, a HX-HZ is a Kingswood ute with stripes. Why do you think GMH rushed to make the HX and later HZ stripes a delete option - people didn't want them. And what was the first thing people did to them? Stuck GTS guards on them.

I was talking about mistakes in hindsight. It tells me that GMH would have been far better keeping the V car as a Torana and keeping the W car, rather than turning the Torana into a U car and slotting an in between V car between the U and W cars. My point about a UC SLR5000 was that the WA or WB Sandman compared to a HJ Sandman would have looked like a UC SLR5000 compared to an LH-LX SLR5000 (if WA had been built there would have been no HX or HZ, just HQ into HV/HJ then WA).

GMH would have done better not having VB-VL in my opinion, just kept the Torana and the W Holden and Statesman. Then introduce the VN to replace the Holden into the 90's.

The only think going for the VL as far as I am concerned was the continuation of the 5.0L engine and the introduction of the EFI 5.0L. The Nissan engine might have been good compared to a clunky old 202 in a passenger hack, but it wouldn't have been any use in a W size car or as good as Ford's bigger 6cyl engines. The V6's would have been far more suited to commercial vehicles than that Nissan head cracker.

Like you say how good the XG and XH were. Imagine a W commercial, updated as much as the Fords were running injected 5.0L, even continue it as late as 2000. Should have been far more popular than any Commodore ute (VG-VS).

Holden should have done a lot too, but the GFC and near bankruptcy killed it all. The VE platform was meant to be just like the VT-VZ platform with coupes, cab-chassis, dual cabs and AWB. But they simply couldn't do it.

Near the end I tried to buy a Ford FGIII or FX. The salesman was pretty good, rang head office for me but got nowhere. I tried to buy an XR6T auto cab-chassis with the trim update package, really wanted it as a cab chassis but was prepared to take a ute if I had to and turf the back and fit a tray. All I wanted was the 3/4 tonne springs off the XL or even better the 1-tonne springs, rest was the same other than using the wheels and tyres off the XR6 cab-chassis. Sure I could have done it myself using spare part leafs and wheels and replaced the XR6's 500kg leafs and 19" wheels, but I wanted the factory GVW and hence GCM. Reason was whilst the XR6T could officially tow 2300kg, the load capacity meant that by the time you put a towbar on it, the required load levellers, added 230kg of towball load (10% of 2300kg) and had two passengers you were already above the GVW and hence GCM of the combination. They wouldn't do it to get the sale though, and to pay an Engineer to Engineer the upgrades prior to first rego added about $4000 to a $37,000 car without paying over $3000 for the factory rear springs, U-bolts and wheels.


How can you say a HX-Z Sandman is a Kingwood, that is a insult, carpet, chrome doorsill GTS dash and steering wheel, bucket seats blacked out grill, wheels, full hood lining to the back and no 6 cyl crap, console, stripes are much better than HQ-J and well my HX 5.0L 4SP did not have the stripes and yes I did put GTS guards and HZ GTS front on it, bar the GTS emblem.

I don't think any mistakes were made in hindsight, apart from the first V6 being a chaffcutter and the VN-P being the most ugly Holden ever.

Well the EFI 3.3L was a good performing engine, better in low down torque than the VL 3.0L Nissan, but it's hard to bag the Nissan 3.0L engine in it's day I am sure it could blow away the VL V8 and remember they had turbo as well and you could turn up the wick and open the exhaust with a 3 inch system.Dancing making it the best performing Holden ever to that date good box and diff as well.

I agree the Kingswood ute p van 1 tonne would of been fine to go even today with updated engines.

I agree with the GFC is as you say.

I wanted a XR6 Turbo manual with tray back, that's simple as for Ford to do, now one may want as I but with a bench seat and why not, but the clowns at the dealer ship said no one would want such a thing and resale would be crap, and you would never be able to sell it. but that's not what most people I came across said as they were all for such a thing and 4x4 as well, if Ford captured the market selling much more utes all would of been fine selling such things but people from 2000 on liked their Toyota etc 4x4 tray back because reliability and resale but they were gutless rubbish and ride is crappy and they never bothered to look Falcon, but if it was there and advertised correctly it would of wiped the floor with the jap crap.
Ford could of cleaned up with a good Falcon 4x4 setup.
Ford had the XY Falcon 4x4 in 1972 and the XA-B-C 4x4 could not be made due to the big doors and flex but a XD on could of been done, a XD 4X4 4.1L alloy head and C4 auto and on would of sold well, it would not be the best full on bush basher but it would of done the job most tradesman wanted them for.
griffo Offline
#27 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 2:31:17 PM(UTC)
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Interesting you say that Castellan...At the end of 2017 Ford were the market leader in 4x4 sales...albeit with the Ranger...Yes over Toyota Hilux.
I think Hilux were the largest selling vehicle including 2x4's....but not 4z4's.
I live out near Beaudesert Qld,and the guys at Scenic Ford have a yard full of them(Rangers) and Tojo yard has a cpl.They are a tad cheaper of course than a Hilux.
So they have maybe listened to the market as you say but all a bit to late to save the Falcon.
A Bit like GM-H with the WB Stato giving the rear seat passengers more leg room to match the Fairlane....All to little to late.
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#28 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 3:34:10 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Put it this way, a HX-HZ Sandman was pretty much the easiest and the cheapest way to get a V8 ute with decent dash. Only catch was no bench seat. Heaps of tradies used them, especially as used cars.

Garbage, a HX-HZ Sandman does not look better than a HQ-HJ! A HQ-HJ is essentially a GTS ute, a HX-HZ is a Kingswood ute with stripes. Why do you think GMH rushed to make the HX and later HZ stripes a delete option - people didn't want them. And what was the first thing people did to them? Stuck GTS guards on them.

I was talking about mistakes in hindsight. It tells me that GMH would have been far better keeping the V car as a Torana and keeping the W car, rather than turning the Torana into a U car and slotting an in between V car between the U and W cars. My point about a UC SLR5000 was that the WA or WB Sandman compared to a HJ Sandman would have looked like a UC SLR5000 compared to an LH-LX SLR5000 (if WA had been built there would have been no HX or HZ, just HQ into HV/HJ then WA).

GMH would have done better not having VB-VL in my opinion, just kept the Torana and the W Holden and Statesman. Then introduce the VN to replace the Holden into the 90's.

The only think going for the VL as far as I am concerned was the continuation of the 5.0L engine and the introduction of the EFI 5.0L. The Nissan engine might have been good compared to a clunky old 202 in a passenger hack, but it wouldn't have been any use in a W size car or as good as Ford's bigger 6cyl engines. The V6's would have been far more suited to commercial vehicles than that Nissan head cracker.

Like you say how good the XG and XH were. Imagine a W commercial, updated as much as the Fords were running injected 5.0L, even continue it as late as 2000. Should have been far more popular than any Commodore ute (VG-VS).

Holden should have done a lot too, but the GFC and near bankruptcy killed it all. The VE platform was meant to be just like the VT-VZ platform with coupes, cab-chassis, dual cabs and AWB. But they simply couldn't do it.

Near the end I tried to buy a Ford FGIII or FX. The salesman was pretty good, rang head office for me but got nowhere. I tried to buy an XR6T auto cab-chassis with the trim update package, really wanted it as a cab chassis but was prepared to take a ute if I had to and turf the back and fit a tray. All I wanted was the 3/4 tonne springs off the XL or even better the 1-tonne springs, rest was the same other than using the wheels and tyres off the XR6 cab-chassis. Sure I could have done it myself using spare part leafs and wheels and replaced the XR6's 500kg leafs and 19" wheels, but I wanted the factory GVW and hence GCM. Reason was whilst the XR6T could officially tow 2300kg, the load capacity meant that by the time you put a towbar on it, the required load levellers, added 230kg of towball load (10% of 2300kg) and had two passengers you were already above the GVW and hence GCM of the combination. They wouldn't do it to get the sale though, and to pay an Engineer to Engineer the upgrades prior to first rego added about $4000 to a $37,000 car without paying over $3000 for the factory rear springs, U-bolts and wheels.


How can you say a HX-Z Sandman is a Kingwood, that is a insult, carpet, chrome doorsill GTS dash and steering wheel, bucket seats blacked out grill, wheels, full hood lining to the back and no 6 cyl crap, console, stripes are much better than HQ-J and well my HX 5.0L 4SP did not have the stripes and yes I did put GTS guards and HZ GTS front on it, bar the GTS emblem.

I don't think any mistakes were made in hindsight, apart from the first V6 being a chaffcutter and the VN-P being the most ugly Holden ever.

Well the EFI 3.3L was a good performing engine, better in low down torque than the VL 3.0L Nissan, but it's hard to bag the Nissan 3.0L engine in it's day I am sure it could blow away the VL V8 and remember they had turbo as well and you could turn up the wick and open the exhaust with a 3 inch system.Dancing making it the best performing Holden ever to that date good box and diff as well.

I agree the Kingswood ute p van 1 tonne would of been fine to go even today with updated engines.

I agree with the GFC is as you say.

I wanted a XR6 Turbo manual with tray back, that's simple as for Ford to do, now one may want as I but with a bench seat and why not, but the clowns at the dealer ship said no one would want such a thing and resale would be crap, and you would never be able to sell it. but that's not what most people I came across said as they were all for such a thing and 4x4 as well, if Ford captured the market selling much more utes all would of been fine selling such things but people from 2000 on liked their Toyota etc 4x4 tray back because reliability and resale but they were gutless rubbish and ride is crappy and they never bothered to look Falcon, but if it was there and advertised correctly it would of wiped the floor with the jap crap.
Ford could of cleaned up with a good Falcon 4x4 setup.
Ford had the XY Falcon 4x4 in 1972 and the XA-B-C 4x4 could not be made due to the big doors and flex but a XD on could of been done, a XD 4X4 4.1L alloy head and C4 auto and on would of sold well, it would not be the best full on bush basher but it would of done the job most tradesman wanted them for.


I said it because it is true. A HQ-HJ Sandman was a sports option package on top of the base vehicle. For HQ it was applied to 6 different models (Belmont ute, Belmont van, Kingswood ute, Belmont V8 ute, Belmont V8 van or Kingswood V8 ute). For HJ it was only the 3 models (Holden ute, Holden van or Kingswood ute). What they did for each was add some normally available options, plus some stuff not available. See below.

HQ: Added bucket seats, 4spd manual, Rally rims, U21 sports dash, Stripes and logos (came in a box and dealer fitted them if you wanted). Bits you got that were not available options on commercials were: Console shift, sports steering wheel, SS grille, GTS speedo, Sandman insert for steering wheel badge, GTS headlight surrounds and lower body paint blackouts.

HJ: Very similar to HQ. Differences were BB7 (full length headlining from the comfort package) was standard with a Sandman van, the whole dash in a HJ Sandman was optional in other commercials, and the grille was GTS. Carpet and armrests were added to Holden Sandman package later in HJ.

What GMH did to the Sandman in HX was turned it into a different vehicle, which was essentially an optioned Kingswood with stripes. The 3.3L engine, brightwork, full headlining, carpet, grille badge, trim, interior light door switches etc on a HX Sandman were all standard on a Kingwood ute or van. Just about all of the rest of the package was options available on Kingswood: 4spd, sports dash, bucket seats, rally rims, console shift (not initially, added as a Kingswood option after a few months of HX). The only things you couldn't get on a Kingswood were: the stripes/logos, Lukey mirrors, blackouts, sports steering wheel and the GTS's grille and headlight surrounds.

HZ was the same, only difference was you couldn't get a 6cyl engine in a HZ Sandman.

HX-HX stripes were ugly to many, that is why GMH had to make them a delete option. Initially in HX hey were mandatory. You'll find the most common stripe option on HZ was DL7 - delete stripes.

Hindsight tells you there were HEAPS of mistakes. Why do you think GMH ended up going bust by the end of the 80's?

I didn't like the Nissan 6 in a Commodore due to it was unreliable and the auto box was junk. Talking the NA engine here though. It would not have been any good in a W size commercial, but the V6 would have done a decent job. I think this is why they canned the W size commercials, as the Nissan engines and boxes (remember no V8 planned past VK) wouldn't have been up to the task.

You had the same problems as me with Ford with the XR6. I didn't want a manual though as it was useless for towing or carrying load. IIRC it was rated at 1200kg towing. I even tried earlier to buy an F250 off them, test drove a single cab, bench seat 4x4 F250. I said beaut, i'll take one with V8 (petrol preferably but I would have had the 7.3TD too) and auto. Ah sorry sir, 6cyl diesel and manual only. I just walked out and bought a Cross8 instead.

Edited by user Friday, 16 February 2018 3:37:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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wbute Offline
#29 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 8:06:34 PM(UTC)
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HZ might have had DL7, HQ/J didn’t need it. The owner could just choose to not fit them. HZ may have had lots of DL7 but there is no way of knowing how many HQ/HJ never had the stripes fitted as the owners also thought they looked bad.
Without the stickers and name, they would have been just as forgettable as a S PAC Falcon Ute really.
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#30 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 8:36:10 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
HZ might have had DL7, HQ/J didn’t need it. The owner could just choose to not fit them. HZ may have had lots of DL7 but there is no way of knowing how many HQ/HJ never had the stripes fitted as the owners also thought they looked bad.
Without the stickers and name, they would have been just as forgettable as a S PAC Falcon Ute really.


They did not have that choice in HX though, and feedback told them they had to which they added later in HX.

That is right, a HX or HZ Sandman looked not all that much different from a Kingswood and was forgettable without stripes, but that is what many people would want - Police ignored cars that blend into the background. HQ-HJ was different, they looked more like a GTS without the stripes, and hence was not as forgettable. A HX-HZ Sandman essentially is the same thing as an S pack ute in Ford Falcon or VG-VS terms. HQ-HJ is different though as it was by design intended to be a Belmont (Holden in HJ) or Kingswood that was GTS from the front of the seats forward. They even wore the Belmont and Kingswood names. They are not that far different to an El Camino with the SS package applied. The direction changed for HX though, tastes changed away from Muscle to "wimp" (not sure what the best term is, maybe Hippy 70's cr@p!). This is why everything went backwards away from tough to less than tough. Just look at a standard SS Torana compared to an LH SLR, or a HX (or even softer HZ) GTS compared to HQ or HJ. Sandman was no different. Not saying a HZ isn't a good car, in standard form a HZ Premier or Kingswood is probably always going to be a nicer and more functional car than a HJ (engines aside), but a HX-HZ "sports" variant never looked as tough as a HQ-HJ, at least in my eyes. Ever tried to take in that awful tartan trim and the optional pinstripes plus painted Rally rims and front/rear bars? A HJ GTS looks like it is doing 100mph standing still, those awesome red stripes on the seats and the silver dash, the understated blackouts and the optional black air dam with that huge red GTS badge in the grille. A HZ looks like a stationary fashion shoot, but at least it still kept fluted guards!

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griffo Offline
#31 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 8:36:39 PM(UTC)
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S PAC falcon......Now that rings a bell. Was that fords tricked up 250 6 cylinder in the XA's?...I vaguely remember them in a sedan...Saw one once and that was it...I can't google anything about it.Well ford did jump out first first with the 8 not heading a 6 S I guess.Maybe they thought a 250 in a 6 was enough.We had them, they were ok and a 351 in a XD and was a slug...a fuel sucking slug,

I quick edit....Go fast stripes back around 77 78 were a killer for resale...A mate had Falcon 500 v8 the works...
He lost $500 simply because it had stripes on the guards on a trade in .

Edited by user Friday, 16 February 2018 8:47:20 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#32 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 8:44:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
S PAC falcon......Now that rings a bell. Was that fords tricked up 250 6 cylinder in the XA's?...I vaguely remember them in a sedan...Saw one once and that was it...I can't google anything about it.Well ford did jump out first first with the 8 not heading a 6 S I guess.Maybe they thought a 250 in a 6 was enough.We had them, they were ok and a 351 in a XD and was a slug...a fuel sucking slug,


Couldn't find an XD, Here is an XE S-pack:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ifhp97/7554191590

Here is sort of one, not a great picture though: https://www.shannons.com...2-ford-xd-falcon/photos/

Edited by user Friday, 16 February 2018 8:46:56 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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griffo Offline
#33 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 8:51:41 PM(UTC)
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Sorry my bad HK ...I have seen stacks of those now that you show me....There was a tricked up 6 that was like Holdens 186s...Only had the guard badge to show what it was under the bonnet.

Here is all I can find..Its the 170HP over the 155Hp 250 donk
.https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/250-170-HP-GUARD-BADGE-NEW-for-Ford-Falcon-XY-2V-Inline-6-six-170HP-Fairmont-GT-/222798734776?nma=true&si=HyoMy3mR%252BKZqqnyjNkgQW%252Fx4cEM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

http://www.ebay.com.au/i...B-XY-XW-ZF-/301005334162
Go down to the 500 special listed there.

http://www.automobile-ca...lcon_500_sedan/1972.html

Edited by user Friday, 16 February 2018 9:34:02 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

wbute Offline
#34 Posted : Friday, 16 February 2018 9:05:46 PM(UTC)
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If only they had offered a performance line in HQ-WB, more power and handling option to go with the nice sports dash and GTS front styling . How collectible they would be now.
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#35 Posted : Saturday, 17 February 2018 6:33:35 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
If only they had offered a performance line in HQ-WB, more power and handling option to go with the nice sports dash and GTS front styling . How collectible they would be now.


Same with UC. If GMH had continued with a V8 in UC the cars that won Bathurst in 1978 and 1979 would have had UC sheet metal on them, yes there would have been a UC A9X. And like WB, UC would probably no longer have been seen as an ugly duckling.

As HZ GTS changed to the luxury 4 headlight front, a WA GTS would probably have sported the Deville's nose. The WA Sandman would possibly have been the same?
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griffo Offline
#36 Posted : Saturday, 17 February 2018 7:06:57 AM(UTC)
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Its weird really how the UC was seen as a Nanna and Pop's car when they were streets ahead of the other Toranas.
H4 lights,heated rear window,column control/intermittent wipers,4 wheel disc,Sals diff.tinted windows,full RTS,full instruments with clock,improved rear leg room.
As HK said ....no v8.
castellan Offline
#37 Posted : Saturday, 17 February 2018 11:51:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Put it this way, a HX-HZ Sandman was pretty much the easiest and the cheapest way to get a V8 ute with decent dash. Only catch was no bench seat. Heaps of tradies used them, especially as used cars.

Garbage, a HX-HZ Sandman does not look better than a HQ-HJ! A HQ-HJ is essentially a GTS ute, a HX-HZ is a Kingswood ute with stripes. Why do you think GMH rushed to make the HX and later HZ stripes a delete option - people didn't want them. And what was the first thing people did to them? Stuck GTS guards on them.

I was talking about mistakes in hindsight. It tells me that GMH would have been far better keeping the V car as a Torana and keeping the W car, rather than turning the Torana into a U car and slotting an in between V car between the U and W cars. My point about a UC SLR5000 was that the WA or WB Sandman compared to a HJ Sandman would have looked like a UC SLR5000 compared to an LH-LX SLR5000 (if WA had been built there would have been no HX or HZ, just HQ into HV/HJ then WA).

GMH would have done better not having VB-VL in my opinion, just kept the Torana and the W Holden and Statesman. Then introduce the VN to replace the Holden into the 90's.

The only think going for the VL as far as I am concerned was the continuation of the 5.0L engine and the introduction of the EFI 5.0L. The Nissan engine might have been good compared to a clunky old 202 in a passenger hack, but it wouldn't have been any use in a W size car or as good as Ford's bigger 6cyl engines. The V6's would have been far more suited to commercial vehicles than that Nissan head cracker.

Like you say how good the XG and XH were. Imagine a W commercial, updated as much as the Fords were running injected 5.0L, even continue it as late as 2000. Should have been far more popular than any Commodore ute (VG-VS).

Holden should have done a lot too, but the GFC and near bankruptcy killed it all. The VE platform was meant to be just like the VT-VZ platform with coupes, cab-chassis, dual cabs and AWB. But they simply couldn't do it.

Near the end I tried to buy a Ford FGIII or FX. The salesman was pretty good, rang head office for me but got nowhere. I tried to buy an XR6T auto cab-chassis with the trim update package, really wanted it as a cab chassis but was prepared to take a ute if I had to and turf the back and fit a tray. All I wanted was the 3/4 tonne springs off the XL or even better the 1-tonne springs, rest was the same other than using the wheels and tyres off the XR6 cab-chassis. Sure I could have done it myself using spare part leafs and wheels and replaced the XR6's 500kg leafs and 19" wheels, but I wanted the factory GVW and hence GCM. Reason was whilst the XR6T could officially tow 2300kg, the load capacity meant that by the time you put a towbar on it, the required load levellers, added 230kg of towball load (10% of 2300kg) and had two passengers you were already above the GVW and hence GCM of the combination. They wouldn't do it to get the sale though, and to pay an Engineer to Engineer the upgrades prior to first rego added about $4000 to a $37,000 car without paying over $3000 for the factory rear springs, U-bolts and wheels.


How can you say a HX-Z Sandman is a Kingwood, that is a insult, carpet, chrome doorsill GTS dash and steering wheel, bucket seats blacked out grill, wheels, full hood lining to the back and no 6 cyl crap, console, stripes are much better than HQ-J and well my HX 5.0L 4SP did not have the stripes and yes I did put GTS guards and HZ GTS front on it, bar the GTS emblem.

I don't think any mistakes were made in hindsight, apart from the first V6 being a chaffcutter and the VN-P being the most ugly Holden ever.

Well the EFI 3.3L was a good performing engine, better in low down torque than the VL 3.0L Nissan, but it's hard to bag the Nissan 3.0L engine in it's day I am sure it could blow away the VL V8 and remember they had turbo as well and you could turn up the wick and open the exhaust with a 3 inch system.Dancing making it the best performing Holden ever to that date good box and diff as well.

I agree the Kingswood ute p van 1 tonne would of been fine to go even today with updated engines.

I agree with the GFC is as you say.

I wanted a XR6 Turbo manual with tray back, that's simple as for Ford to do, now one may want as I but with a bench seat and why not, but the clowns at the dealer ship said no one would want such a thing and resale would be crap, and you would never be able to sell it. but that's not what most people I came across said as they were all for such a thing and 4x4 as well, if Ford captured the market selling much more utes all would of been fine selling such things but people from 2000 on liked their Toyota etc 4x4 tray back because reliability and resale but they were gutless rubbish and ride is crappy and they never bothered to look Falcon, but if it was there and advertised correctly it would of wiped the floor with the jap crap.
Ford could of cleaned up with a good Falcon 4x4 setup.
Ford had the XY Falcon 4x4 in 1972 and the XA-B-C 4x4 could not be made due to the big doors and flex but a XD on could of been done, a XD 4X4 4.1L alloy head and C4 auto and on would of sold well, it would not be the best full on bush basher but it would of done the job most tradesman wanted them for.


I said it because it is true. A HQ-HJ Sandman was a sports option package on top of the base vehicle. For HQ it was applied to 6 different models (Belmont ute, Belmont van, Kingswood ute, Belmont V8 ute, Belmont V8 van or Kingswood V8 ute). For HJ it was only the 3 models (Holden ute, Holden van or Kingswood ute). What they did for each was add some normally available options, plus some stuff not available. See below.

HQ: Added bucket seats, 4spd manual, Rally rims, U21 sports dash, Stripes and logos (came in a box and dealer fitted them if you wanted). Bits you got that were not available options on commercials were: Console shift, sports steering wheel, SS grille, GTS speedo, Sandman insert for steering wheel badge, GTS headlight surrounds and lower body paint blackouts.

HJ: Very similar to HQ. Differences were BB7 (full length headlining from the comfort package) was standard with a Sandman van, the whole dash in a HJ Sandman was optional in other commercials, and the grille was GTS. Carpet and armrests were added to Holden Sandman package later in HJ.

What GMH did to the Sandman in HX was turned it into a different vehicle, which was essentially an optioned Kingswood with stripes. The 3.3L engine, brightwork, full headlining, carpet, grille badge, trim, interior light door switches etc on a HX Sandman were all standard on a Kingwood ute or van. Just about all of the rest of the package was options available on Kingswood: 4spd, sports dash, bucket seats, rally rims, console shift (not initially, added as a Kingswood option after a few months of HX). The only things you couldn't get on a Kingswood were: the stripes/logos, Lukey mirrors, blackouts, sports steering wheel and the GTS's grille and headlight surrounds.

HZ was the same, only difference was you couldn't get a 6cyl engine in a HZ Sandman.

HX-HX stripes were ugly to many, that is why GMH had to make them a delete option. Initially in HX hey were mandatory. You'll find the most common stripe option on HZ was DL7 - delete stripes.

Hindsight tells you there were HEAPS of mistakes. Why do you think GMH ended up going bust by the end of the 80's?

I didn't like the Nissan 6 in a Commodore due to it was unreliable and the auto box was junk. Talking the NA engine here though. It would not have been any good in a W size commercial, but the V6 would have done a decent job. I think this is why they canned the W size commercials, as the Nissan engines and boxes (remember no V8 planned past VK) wouldn't have been up to the task.

You had the same problems as me with Ford with the XR6. I didn't want a manual though as it was useless for towing or carrying load. IIRC it was rated at 1200kg towing. I even tried earlier to buy an F250 off them, test drove a single cab, bench seat 4x4 F250. I said beaut, i'll take one with V8 (petrol preferably but I would have had the 7.3TD too) and auto. Ah sorry sir, 6cyl diesel and manual only. I just walked out and bought a Cross8 instead.


VL 3.0L unreliable Eh? that's total B/S,
VL Nissan Auto well I drove one from Brissy to Sydney and back and never complained about it, what's wrong about them most I know got more km out of the engines and manual and auto box than 3.3L and trimatic, would of cost more to recon as well for sure.

The AU ute on did not have the room in the tail that I wanted, so that's why I wanted a tray, nothing to do with weight as the XR6 springs would be fine for me a bit over loaded at times for short distance but I could live with that.
castellan Offline
#38 Posted : Saturday, 17 February 2018 12:05:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
S PAC falcon......Now that rings a bell. Was that fords tricked up 250 6 cylinder in the XA's?...I vaguely remember them in a sedan...Saw one once and that was it...I can't google anything about it.Well ford did jump out first first with the 8 not heading a 6 S I guess.Maybe they thought a 250 in a 6 was enough.We had them, they were ok and a 351 in a XD and was a slug...a fuel sucking slug,

I quick edit....Go fast stripes back around 77 78 were a killer for resale...A mate had Falcon 500 v8 the works...
He lost $500 simply because it had stripes on the guards on a trade in .


GS Falcon utes and the XY-A optioned 170hp 2V head 250 was trying to take on the Sandman 253, ford gave up on the 250 2v as the V8 253 could still hose them off.

Ford had a 289 v8 option near the end of the XR ute's run and then the 302 in the XT ute and 351 2V in the XY UTE option and XA-B on.
But Valiant was the first V8 ute, auto only.
castellan Offline
#39 Posted : Saturday, 17 February 2018 12:19:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: griffo Go to Quoted Post
Its weird really how the UC was seen as a Nanna and Pop's car when they were streets ahead of the other Toranas.
H4 lights,heated rear window,column control/intermittent wipers,4 wheel disc,Sals diff.tinted windows,full RTS,full instruments with clock,improved rear leg room.
As HK said ....no v8.


Torana's were rubbish regardless, really not much chop at all off the floor unless it was a 308.

The XU-1 was rubbish car really it's only like a TA Torana truly with a good performing engine at the end of the day.

Even the UC Torana had nothing on the VB Commodore.
HK1837 Offline
#40 Posted : Saturday, 17 February 2018 5:21:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post


VL 3.0L unreliable Eh? that's total B/S,
VL Nissan Auto well I drove one from Brissy to Sydney and back and never complained about it, what's wrong about them most I know got more km out of the engines and manual and auto box than 3.3L and trimatic, would of cost more to recon as well for sure.

The AU ute on did not have the room in the tail that I wanted, so that's why I wanted a tray, nothing to do with weight as the XR6 springs would be fine for me a bit over loaded at times for short distance but I could live with that.


No its fact. They cracked heads like they were going out of fashion. Not the engine's fault I don't think as the Skylines didn't have the same issues, but how GMH installed them. Auto box was not a strong box, and would not have stood up to commercial duty. It was just an old Jatco box with overdrive IIRC.

I wanted a tray too in the FGIII, but the leaf springs were too weak for towing the rated towing capacity, and no good for a load.

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