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DW Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, 17 December 2018 2:02:45 PM(UTC)
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Hi all,

After reading the article written in AMC, issue 75, by Ben Stewart "to the crusher or dealer" there is a copy of any ex company vehicle tender document for a sale held at Fishermans bend on the 2/75.

I have the original rego for my vehicle after applying to the AOMC for it and may be able to get some more info regarding my Internal company use car if it was sold at one of the ex company vehicle sales.

1. Are there any copies of any Ex Company vehicle sale tender documents anywhere for the general public to view from that same era?

2. Is there anywhere else that I may be able to find any more information using the first registration details of the car? Applying to VIC roads is no good as ive tried.


thx
8D11PCH2 Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, 17 December 2018 2:43:38 PM(UTC)
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As far as I'm aware those GM-H tender documents are very thin on the ground.
If my memory serves me correctly Ben told me that is the only tender document he had at that point in time.
Did you do the FOI search on your original rego number with VICroads?
Did they supply you with a copy of the original registration application forms with the registered owners personal details blacked out?

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DW on 17/12/2018(UTC)
DW Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, 17 December 2018 3:54:39 PM(UTC)
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Thx for that info.

I called VIC roads a while ago and the lady mentioned that they were unable to give me any information regarding the original owner and I also questioned her on the FOI.

Will call them again regarding obtaining a copy of the original document and see how I go.

I called GM today regarding the dealer code - 255 and was told that Motorsport was attached to it? with the dealer address being 261 Salmon st Port Melb.

Im guessing the address being at the old Holden site is due to the vehicle being an internal car?

Cheers
HK1837 Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, 17 December 2018 5:36:27 PM(UTC)
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I've only ever seen two of those Tenders, and the one you mention is one of them.
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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DW on 18/12/2018(UTC)
8D11PCH2 Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, 17 December 2018 6:23:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DW Go to Quoted Post
Thx for that info.

I called VIC roads a while ago and the lady mentioned that they were unable to give me any information regarding the original owner and I also questioned her on the FOI.

Will call them again regarding obtaining a copy of the original document and see how I go.

I called GM today regarding the dealer code - 255 and was told that Motorsport was attached to it? with the dealer address being 261 Salmon st Port Melb.

Im guessing the address being at the old Holden site is due to the vehicle being an internal car?

Cheers


VICroads won't give you any info over the phone. You will need to fill out a FOI request and pay the prescribed fee to try to procure a copy of the original 'Application for Registration' forms.
If you can prove (to their satisfaction) you are the current owner of the vehicle in question they should approve your application and send you the requested document, however they will black out the personal details of the registered owner.
If the first registered owner is GMH - Salmon Street, Port Melbourne then they may not black that out as GMH is a Company not a private individual.
Probably best to talk to Chris O'Donnell - Manager Freedom of Information & Information Privacy at VICroads on 9854 2331.

Cheers
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DW on 18/12/2018(UTC)
HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, 17 December 2018 6:52:35 PM(UTC)
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I'm actually very surprised that GMH even know what any of their dealer codes were from 1972. They can no longer reliably read their own Service/Warranty 'fiche records.
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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DW on 18/12/2018(UTC)
DW Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, 18 December 2018 2:40:59 AM(UTC)
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Thx HK and 8D11.

8D11, Will Call Chris O'Donnell first with the number that you have provided to make sure I won't be getting any info that I already have and all going well will apply for the document mentioned.

HK, The lady at GM firstly asked me for the date the vehicle was built and then (from what I can gather) used that against the 255 code to obtain the motorsport connection. She stated the dealer address attached to the code as being at Salmon st so it could be time correct?.

Given what ive been told it now makes sense to me as to why she needed the date at the time of the vehicle being completed to pin point the 255 code use at that specific time (7/3/72) as they are frequently given a new application under the same number.

Ben has explained the coding system to me and from what I can gather the whole arrangement is extremely complex and I will have to read his email about 30 times before I can hopefully get my head around it.

Also I have no Idea what a Fiche record is and will have to look it up.
HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, 18 December 2018 4:57:20 AM(UTC)
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When GMH moved to a new warranty system mid 1978 they had their IBM 360 mainframe print a report to paper for the current vehicles and had it and prior printed reports for earlier vehicle series converted to Microfiche. Those ‘fiche records are all that is currently available and what GMH and HHS uses. The info Ben gave you is off the ‘fiche. As far as I am aware there is four copies in existence.

The 255 code meaning given to you by Balfizar will mean that the car was an employee’s car so finding it’s history will be tough. GMH allowed employees to buy cars very cheap so many took it up.
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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DW on 18/12/2018(UTC)
8D11PCH2 Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, 18 December 2018 5:55:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post

The 255 code meaning given to you by Balfizar will mean that the car was an employee’s car so finding it’s history will be tough. GMH allowed employees to buy cars very cheap so many took it up.


Agree.

If the above is the case then the FOI search on the original rego number will not reveal who the first registered owner was. That information is subject to the privacy provisions of the FOI act. Just so you know the prescribed fee for an FOI application is not refundable in the event your application is rejected.

Edited by user Tuesday, 18 December 2018 6:02:02 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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DW on 18/12/2018(UTC)
DW Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, 18 December 2018 5:28:39 PM(UTC)
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Thx HK and 8D11,

HK, Understood on the Fiche records and the 255 code from what ive learnt would have been different at the time of the sale in 1973 to the employee than the 255 code prior to the build in 1972 due to the internal numbers being static until altered for a given circumstance (ref Balfizar).

I have asked Balfizar if he has any records of the 255 Code attached to the vehicle prior to being built 1n 72 as I have been told that there was no approval required from a zone office for the C.T.V attached to the car and it would be interesting to see what it was for a possible narrowing of the net.

I called GM again today with a question after the (Nice) lady I spoke with yesterday sent me an email informing me that there is no record on their system attached to the VIN as she was going to give me an authenticity certificate free of charge. The Auth certificate would have not given me any more information than has already been given to me by Ben at HHS but I thought why not as she offered.

I was connected through to a Different (not so nice) lady which abruptly informed me that the line ends here due to the VIN search not showing anything with no more information available and then went on to give me the old Fire story in which all of their records were lost ect ect.

Its seems funny to me as the (Nice) lady yesterday was able to give me a Dealer Code and the address attached to the code which completely contradicts what the (not so nice) lady told me today.

Buggered if I know whats going on at GM with regards to information release as im certain that they have a lot more available to the general public than they are letting on and im wondering if the old "FOI" could be called upon for potential release of any hidden data applicable to the owners of vehicles within their records.

8D11, Thx for the warning and I will just add the receipt for the FOI application to the top of the pile of ever growing pile of existing receipts attached to this Kingswood utility.

For the Newbies on this forum like me, If you call GM for any information regarding your car make sure you speak with the NICE lady named Sam as she is genuinely willing to help. She also told me what you get in the authenticity certificate and it is no where near as comprehensive as the one you get from the Holden Historical Services with regards to Information pertaining to your car.

What I have stated above was not intended in away as a plug for HSS Im just stating a straight up fact from my recent experience in chasing Information and will hopefully save someone some time.

Cheers

commodorenut Offline
#11 Posted : Tuesday, 18 December 2018 6:12:51 PM(UTC)
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I did an FOI some 15 years ago with Vicroads, and they gave me the dates the car changed hands, and the postcodes it was registered to. No names or other details. Fortunately I had the original rego (personal plates) and the subsequent rego (standard issue plates) from the second ownership period, so they had enough to go on. It was about $27-29 back then.

GMH are funny people when it comes to records and so called "VIN data" letters they issue. I've seen one issued by Holden claiming a Berlina Wagon to be a Calais (but it was not an A9Y) and it came about because the owner told them that's what it was.... As the owner of a HDT Calais wagon myself, I thought it funny when the girl told me she didn't know HSV made wagons.... she wasn't as nice as the "nice lady" you described above, nor was she not-so-nice, but she clearly had no idea. HSV actually did make wagons, and they were even doing R8 Tourers at the time when I was in Salmon St (for business) and shown around to these people to talk to them about my cars. WHen I mentioned how my wagon was a Berlina, converted by HDT, so it would no longer be accurate, she told me she could put what I wanted on there..... Interestingly enough, my VS Calais came up with the HSV processing option, the code for the 185 engine, and FX3 suspension (level ride) yet the HSV data I got in the compendium noted those tasks + other options performed at HSV. But as you say, the Holden letter is a nice addition to have with the HHS letter.
Cheers,

Mick
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DW on 19/12/2018(UTC)
DW Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, 19 December 2018 6:17:57 PM(UTC)
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Thx Mick,

It would appear to make the whole authentic certificate thing is a bit of sham if people can put whatever they like on the certificate and it could potentially lead to somebody paying way to much for a vehicle that isn't what it seems. But as you say it would be a nice thing to have if all the dots line up for ones own records.

Unfortunately for myself the ownership of a nice certificate with a GM letterhead will not come to fruition as apparently my car doesn't exist within the GM system.

The FOI search will hopefully give me the registration postcodes like you received which may give me a place to pinpoint a possible dealer/service sticker that is still in place on the centre back window of the utilitys cab.

Im not sure if its a dealer sticker as its very faded but the outline of the decal is still evident. Ive searched pretty hard online trying find any old dealer/service stickers with the same rough outline but no luck as yet.

From the code information Balfizar gave me stating the sale of the vehicle going to an employee I would assume that the car would have been serviced initially at the GM-H Experimental garage which apparently serviced the Experimental Engineering fleet along with the internal cars and possibly also employees cars depending on who you were.

After it was moved on maybe it went through a dealer and with any luck the sticker (if it is a dealer sticker) may help to pinpoint the location for that given time.

Not sure if anyone can id the sticker below?


Sandaro Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, 19 December 2018 9:07:16 PM(UTC)
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Could that sticker have been a Bob Jane T-marts one?
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DW on 19/12/2018(UTC)
DW Offline
#14 Posted : Wednesday, 19 December 2018 9:32:16 PM(UTC)
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Hi Sandaro,

Im not sure? will have a look for some old Bob Jane decals to see if they match.

Edited by user Wednesday, 19 December 2018 9:33:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

8D11PCH2 Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, 20 December 2018 1:47:16 PM(UTC)
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I had a lengthy conversation with Ben yesterday arvo about various subjects and I touched base with him about your Kingswood ute. he is confident it would have been built with its C.T.V for the Melbourne International Motor Show.

I hope your FOI search with VICroads turns up some positive news.

Cheers.
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DW on 20/12/2018(UTC)
DW Offline
#16 Posted : Thursday, 20 December 2018 3:11:06 PM(UTC)
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Hi 8D11,

Much appreciated for asking Ben a question regarding my ute and letting me know.

Ben has helped me out heaps with any questions ive had regarding the utility and stated from the onset after acquiring the HHS report that any questions ive got he will endeavor to answer going well beyond just the report for assistance, legend.

I can't thank him enough as well as all you guys on this forum for assisting me with gaining knowledge on the subject of the Holden vehicle and also trying to assist with narrowing down the Chateau Mauve utes history, its been epic.

Ben has mentioned the motor shows as well as a few other possibilities to which the ute could have been built for with the playing field being very broad. Ive been scouring the various forums (In particular HKs posts) looking for any info surrounding the above mentioned possibility's and the dates surrounding the sandman prototypes.

Im having trouble getting any archival footage of the Melb motor show in 72 or through that era of any of the shows in SA, NSW ect referencing the GM-H displays. Ive been in touch with a few photographers with no luck. Joe Felice gave me a name of a guy that used to follow GM-H through-out that time and apparently he had given most of photos to someone else?? with it all becoming a little to difficult so I severed the tie. Unfortunately there is not enough time in the day to chase all of these people down as most of them are retired and I don't want to harass them in their retirement for a few photos of a Kingswood ute.

Will start a new post reaching out for some photos or possible magazine articles that might show the car.

Fingers crossed on the FOI and thx again 8D11.







HGV8 Offline
#17 Posted : Thursday, 20 December 2018 3:26:53 PM(UTC)
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The rear window dealer transfer/sticker shape resembles Muir’s Holden of that period.
j.williams
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DW on 20/12/2018(UTC)
gm5735 Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, 20 December 2018 6:25:04 PM(UTC)
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The shape looks a bit like Hages, but that would mean the car was in SA at some point.
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DW on 20/12/2018(UTC)
DW Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, 20 December 2018 6:31:50 PM(UTC)
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Thx HGV8.

I thought the same thing a little while ago but the top of the decal appears to have two small indents in it where the muirs was round at the top from memory. Unfortunately the vehicle is not with me at present so I can't get a good look at the decal but once I can I will get a close up shot which should make life easier.

Thx gm5735.

Will have a look at the Hages decal to compare. Theres no reason why the car couldn't have been in SA at some stage once released from GM-H. The FOI document should give a postcode narrowing down the location hopefully.
Balfizar Offline
#20 Posted : Thursday, 20 December 2018 8:28:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DW Go to Quoted Post
Thx Mick,

It would appear to make the whole authentic certificate thing is a bit of sham if people can put whatever they like on the certificate and it could potentially lead to somebody paying way to much for a vehicle that isn't what it seems. But as you say it would be a nice thing to have if all the dots line up for ones own records.

Unfortunately for myself the ownership of a nice certificate with a GM letterhead will not come to fruition as apparently my car doesn't exist within the GM system.

The FOI search will hopefully give me the registration postcodes like you received which may give me a place to pinpoint a possible dealer/service sticker that is still in place on the centre back window of the utilitys cab.

Im not sure if its a dealer sticker as its very faded but the outline of the decal is still evident. Ive searched pretty hard online trying find any old dealer/service stickers with the same rough outline but no luck as yet.

From the code information Balfizar gave me stating the sale of the vehicle going to an employee I would assume that the car would have been serviced initially at the GM-H Experimental garage which apparently serviced the Experimental Engineering fleet along with the internal cars and possibly also employees cars depending on who you were.

After it was moved on maybe it went through a dealer and with any luck the sticker (if it is a dealer sticker) may help to pinpoint the location for that given time.

Not sure if anyone can id the sticker below?




Does not seem to be Muirs or Hage
Muirs has bar across the bottom.
Hage is oblong. Dealer wallet normally matches the window sticker


Edited by user Thursday, 20 December 2018 8:59:13 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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DW on 22/12/2018(UTC)
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