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greghqtonner Offline
#41 Posted : Monday, 28 December 2020 7:59:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
All I’m saying is if you are looking for performance in a HZ wagon it isn’t going to happen with a 202. Not unless it is forced induction and then you are talking serious $. Even building a 202 to rev over 6000rpm is going to cost, they simply aren’t designed for it. If you want a car to putt around, sure go for it. Just remember you are never going to get sufficient power to drive a HZ wagon in a way that a 6 is going to give you any handling advantage over a V8. Plus getting a worked 6 to comply with HZ emissions is going to be a challenge in itself.
The beauty of the injected V8 is is is basically a bolt in conversion, with most of the bits you need like speedo cable now available already made. The fuel system mods are essentially the same as a VK EFI conversion. And if you use a VR-VS engine you have full ECU control of the transmission, cruise control is easy and HZ power steering bolts straight onto the engine. Probably the biggest hurdle is mounting an A/C compressor. It’ll pass emissions easily, just needs cats. An EFI 5.0L standard will give you around 280-300hp in SAE gross terms. Come rebuild time with flat top pistons, mild cam and a simple ECU retune really wake up, but will have to run on 98. Standard they’ll give you good power out of even 91 octane fuel. You can even bolt the whole top end onto any 1969-1987 308/304 block.


ta , yeah im allready about $13K into it , just fishing for any extra heads up before final assembly , like i said , just the motor i wanted to build , i know i could get crate LS motors for less , or go toyota UZ series , but i want to build the Holden 6 , not overly upset if i dont make massive power but just top up on some of the nicer examples i have experienced .
im running the Vialle liquid LPG injection ( a large part of the budget so far ) but im still waiting to get an Autronic ECU to piggy back off ( the stock VK EFI system isnt sequential ) and run the ignition .
yep , if i was starting again id probably be going the Commodore V6 with the roller lifters instead and save thousands , or a 1UZFE quad cam but ive allways wanted to perfect the Holden straight 6
Having said that if it frags ive still got most of the system to move to another engine .
so yeah its not about massive power and i trust what you say , its more about finnishing the project and seeing how it goes , reason im asking for anyones opinions is about knowing where to set the red line etc hence making sure the top dont come off number 5 and destroy it .
thanks for your thoughts on this .
HK1837 Offline
#42 Posted : Tuesday, 29 December 2020 7:30:25 AM(UTC)
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I’d stay below 6000rpm.

Years ago I had a 202 in my LX hatchback. It was a VB red 3.3 block, blue crank and rods, balanced, Yella Terra 186 head, 40 thou over flat tops, Waggott 30/70 cam, electronic ignition, extractors and 390cfm 4BBL Holley. I dynoed around 125-130hp at the rear wheels. It went pretty well, with a 5spd box and A9X 3.08 rear axle (and front crossmember) it was good enough to have fun at club days at Amaroo Park, but could also tow my ski boat easily.

When I took that motor out of the Torana, I stripped it, honed and crank linished and put in new rings and bearings and put it is a WB cab-chassis I picked up which was a painted and trimmed cab but no front panels or engine/box. I just used bits I had so put in a 3.05:1 Aussie 4spd and a HZ GTS nose I had. Just used some HQ-WB extractors, 2.25" system and rather than the Holley I stuck a HZ Stromberg carb and manifold on it plus a HZ power steering setup. It was tractable enough but horrid above 80km/h mainly due to the 3.55 rear axle. Changed that for a 3.08 one, then it was dreadful especially in reverse. So I ripped out the Aussie 4spd and put in a Trimatic from a VK EFI. It became a pretty decent car, was good around town but even at freeway speeds it was revving too hard. At 110km/h it was near to 3000rpm. Even with the mild 202 but with a small carby it had OK power but was basically a slug due to weight mainly. At the same time my mate had a HQ cab-chassis with a 350, TH350 and 2.6 rear axle. It was no power house and the 2.6 rear axle made it slow accelerating but at highway speeds it was heavenly compared to mine. I had a HJ ute not too long after, with 350, TH400 and 2.78. It ran on LPG and it would sit on 150km/h all day. Later my mate got a WB and built an EFI 308 for it. It was just an old HQ 308 engine already at 60 thou (which is about 318ci). Put in a mild EFI cam, and a whole VP EFI top end with standard VN exhaust manifolds and a VN 180kW Memcal. It was a Muncie and 3.36 rear axle with 15" tyres. It made the 350's feel slow, although they were autos with tall diffs. It was unbelievable how quick it was, and it was efficient. It towed like a truck. I later drove another cab-chassis with a VR 5.0L conversion using the 4L60E 4spd auto box. It had a 3.55 rear axle but with the lockup converter and overdrive box, top gear was equivalent to a TH350/400/Trimatic with 2.5 rear axle. It was the best of both worlds. Good power, low rpm at highway speeds, beautifully tailored shifts. And highway cruising it'd return over 25mpg on E10. You are lucky to get that out of a 3.0L auto TD today. You can do similar things with LS engines in them too, but nowhere near as easy as an EFI Holden V8. That conversion makes the V6 Holden engine conversion redundant.

Another friend put a 4.0L Toyota V8 into his HZ cab-chassis. Why I'll never know, it was pretty complex and gave far less useable power (for a cab-chassis's purpose) with less economy than a 5.0L Holden engine.

If the 202 doesn't give you what you want, and you must stick with a 6cyl, the engine I'd be looking at is a BA-FX Ford straight 6. Would be a pretty complicated though. The other one that will work and GMH actually fitted them to HD-HX is a 250ci Chevrolet straight 6 (or the taller deck 292 which you'll find in GMH assembled Chevy trucks and Bedfords). You can find EFI manifolds and stuff in South America for them. If you are lucky you'll find a Trimatic off one with SBC pattern, or just run a 4L60 or 4L60E with a transmission ECU.

Edited by user Tuesday, 29 December 2020 8:55:48 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
castellan Offline
#43 Posted : Tuesday, 29 December 2020 10:52:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: greghqtonner Go to Quoted Post
thanks for that input , im particularly interested in the 6200 to 6400 harmonic phase , keep hearing about it , keep hearing people saying " dont stay in there and you'l be ok .
Im not going racing , just building the engine how i want it for my retirement ( HZ Wagon , black 3.3 vk efi manifold , Vialle LPG injection )
Maximum power from the injectors is rated at 280 horses ( id be extremely happy if i get that in a drivable car )
the VK manifold is said to be very good up to 5000 rpm ( was very impressed with that motor in the VK Calais )
i have done all the typical work ( resized rods with bigger bolts , screw in rocker studs , guide plates and roller rockers )
ACL hypers with thin rings etc
spent a lot of time polishing polishing oil return paths etc
would hate to kill it with a rod out the side
yeah , i heard all the " 202s are crap , so are Trimatics ! " bullshit when i was a lad , i said " Peter Brocks wasnt "
as ive said before , i think too many thought that a HQ kingswood should go like an XU1 and were dissapointed when it didnt !
if you reved the shit out of it and got away with it you were happy , if it spat you were sad !
ive seen them driven without mercy and survive but ive also seen cylinders crack at half stroke height


Trimatic autos were fine if you service them and have a good oil cooler, most people never serviced them and had a crappy old radiator, heat is the biggest killer of any auto.
My 308 was fast and driven hard with the Trimatic lasting over 400.000km just had a torque converter balloon and splitting due to the power it pumped out.
Mums HJ 202 auto did over 250.000km and the oil was black because the top of the radiator was blocked with rust scale, my dad and his mechanic would not listen to me, I said look I can see it's blocking the tubes, but no it's a new radiator so all is fine.d'oh! my dad rolled that HJ.

The early Trimatic's had a problem with the clutches fibres, only due to people who had steep driveways and reversing out of such would rub the fibres up the wrong way, but they worked out what was going on and changed to material that such was not a problem.

I always thought 202 reds and Trimatics were rubbish myself with what so many were saying back in the days, 9 times out of 10 it's due to the idiot who owns the car I recon that just has no idea, one idiot I know claimed that 253's drop valves, what BS !

I dropped the head off a valve in my 3.3L XC Falcon p van I can not remember the km but I do not claim that X Flow Falcon 6's do drop valves just because mine did, and that engine never used any oil and I just got another old head tossed it on, with a mashed up top piston and it was fine.
greghqtonner Offline
#44 Posted : Tuesday, 29 December 2020 3:34:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: greghqtonner Go to Quoted Post
thanks for that input , im particularly interested in the 6200 to 6400 harmonic phase , keep hearing about it , keep hearing people saying " dont stay in there and you'l be ok .
Im not going racing , just building the engine how i want it for my retirement ( HZ Wagon , black 3.3 vk efi manifold , Vialle LPG injection )
Maximum power from the injectors is rated at 280 horses ( id be extremely happy if i get that in a drivable car )
the VK manifold is said to be very good up to 5000 rpm ( was very impressed with that motor in the VK Calais )
i have done all the typical work ( resized rods with bigger bolts , screw in rocker studs , guide plates and roller rockers )
ACL hypers with thin rings etc
spent a lot of time polishing polishing oil return paths etc
would hate to kill it with a rod out the side
yeah , i heard all the " 202s are crap , so are Trimatics ! " bullshit when i was a lad , i said " Peter Brocks wasnt "
as ive said before , i think too many thought that a HQ kingswood should go like an XU1 and were dissapointed when it didnt !
if you reved the shit out of it and got away with it you were happy , if it spat you were sad !
ive seen them driven without mercy and survive but ive also seen cylinders crack at half stroke height


Trimatic autos were fine if you service them and have a good oil cooler, most people never serviced them and had a crappy old radiator, heat is the biggest killer of any auto.
My 308 was fast and driven hard with the Trimatic lasting over 400.000km just had a torque converter balloon and splitting due to the power it pumped out.
Mums HJ 202 auto did over 250.000km and the oil was black because the top of the radiator was blocked with rust scale, my dad and his mechanic would not listen to me, I said look I can see it's blocking the tubes, but no it's a new radiator so all is fine.d'oh! my dad rolled that HJ.

The early Trimatic's had a problem with the clutches fibres, only due to people who had steep driveways and reversing out of such would rub the fibres up the wrong way, but they worked out what was going on and changed to material that such was not a problem.

I always thought 202 reds and Trimatics were rubbish myself with what so many were saying back in the days, 9 times out of 10 it's due to the idiot who owns the car I recon that just has no idea, one idiot I know claimed that 253's drop valves, what BS !

I dropped the head off a valve in my 3.3L XC Falcon p van I can not remember the km but I do not claim that X Flow Falcon 6's do drop valves just because mine did, and that engine never used any oil and I just got another old head tossed it on, with a mashed up top piston and it was fine.


yeah , i think the message is clear , a couple of bad examples create a myth , i love trimatics ( turbo hydro 180 i believe ) , rebuilt many many of them , great box to work on and modify , i think the issue ( like you said ) was reverse plates coming apart and clogging filters , yes allways external cooler
greghqtonner Offline
#45 Posted : Tuesday, 29 December 2020 3:50:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I’d stay below 6000rpm.

Years ago I had a 202 in my LX hatchback. It was a VB red 3.3 block, blue crank and rods, balanced, Yella Terra 186 head, 40 thou over flat tops, Waggott 30/70 cam, electronic ignition, extractors and 390cfm 4BBL Holley. I dynoed around 125-130hp at the rear wheels. It went pretty well, with a 5spd box and A9X 3.08 rear axle (and front crossmember) it was good enough to have fun at club days at Amaroo Park, but could also tow my ski boat easily.

When I took that motor out of the Torana, I stripped it, honed and crank linished and put in new rings and bearings and put it is a WB cab-chassis I picked up which was a painted and trimmed cab but no front panels or engine/box. I just used bits I had so put in a 3.05:1 Aussie 4spd and a HZ GTS nose I had. Just used some HQ-WB extractors, 2.25" system and rather than the Holley I stuck a HZ Stromberg carb and manifold on it plus a HZ power steering setup. It was tractable enough but horrid above 80km/h mainly due to the 3.55 rear axle. Changed that for a 3.08 one, then it was dreadful especially in reverse. So I ripped out the Aussie 4spd and put in a Trimatic from a VK EFI. It became a pretty decent car, was good around town but even at freeway speeds it was revving too hard. At 110km/h it was near to 3000rpm. Even with the mild 202 but with a small carby it had OK power but was basically a slug due to weight mainly. At the same time my mate had a HQ cab-chassis with a 350, TH350 and 2.6 rear axle. It was no power house and the 2.6 rear axle made it slow accelerating but at highway speeds it was heavenly compared to mine. I had a HJ ute not too long after, with 350, TH400 and 2.78. It ran on LPG and it would sit on 150km/h all day. Later my mate got a WB and built an EFI 308 for it. It was just an old HQ 308 engine already at 60 thou (which is about 318ci). Put in a mild EFI cam, and a whole VP EFI top end with standard VN exhaust manifolds and a VN 180kW Memcal. It was a Muncie and 3.36 rear axle with 15" tyres. It made the 350's feel slow, although they were autos with tall diffs. It was unbelievable how quick it was, and it was efficient. It towed like a truck. I later drove another cab-chassis with a VR 5.0L conversion using the 4L60E 4spd auto box. It had a 3.55 rear axle but with the lockup converter and overdrive box, top gear was equivalent to a TH350/400/Trimatic with 2.5 rear axle. It was the best of both worlds. Good power, low rpm at highway speeds, beautifully tailored shifts. And highway cruising it'd return over 25mpg on E10. You are lucky to get that out of a 3.0L auto TD today. You can do similar things with LS engines in them too, but nowhere near as easy as an EFI Holden V8. That conversion makes the V6 Holden engine conversion redundant.

Another friend put a 4.0L Toyota V8 into his HZ cab-chassis. Why I'll never know, it was pretty complex and gave far less useable power (for a cab-chassis's purpose) with less economy than a 5.0L Holden engine.

If the 202 doesn't give you what you want, and you must stick with a 6cyl, the engine I'd be looking at is a BA-FX Ford straight 6. Would be a pretty complicated though. The other one that will work and GMH actually fitted them to HD-HX is a 250ci Chevrolet straight 6 (or the taller deck 292 which you'll find in GMH assembled Chevy trucks and Bedfords). You can find EFI manifolds and stuff in South America for them. If you are lucky you'll find a Trimatic off one with SBC pattern, or just run a 4L60 or 4L60E with a transmission ECU.


yeah ta , ill get it working and play with cam shafts abit to find the one i like best and then get diff / trans to suit .
Starting and setting up with the Crow Cams 35666 ( 1900 - 4800 rpm on the specs ) i have 1.5:1 rollers and i use solids after bedding in the cam with hydraulics

Edited by user Tuesday, 29 December 2020 4:19:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: misstype

Smitty2 Offline
#46 Posted : Tuesday, 29 December 2020 5:48:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
...

There's nothing particularly special about a Repco F5000 block casting. They were purchased as a raw casting from Holden by Repco Engine company and specially machined, useless protuberances lopped off, oil galleries opened up in places, bored, line bored etc etc.
Ditto the crankshaft, which was a production item offset ground to get below the 5 litre formula limit.
The rods were special Repco forgings, as were the pistons.


I was under the impression the F5000 and the L34 blocks were special cast material by GMH. They introduced the stronger block casting that appeared in normal production with HJ 253 and 308. The F5000 engines had slightly smaller (undersize) bores to stay under the 5litre limit hence the special pistons. The F5000 blocks were cast around early 1973 from memory and lots have a big X in the casting, a few have appeared in L34 which often also have an X across the 308 cast mark.



I can comment on that as I had a neighbour* (he still lives there, i moved away several suburbs) who did his automotive apprenticeship as REDCO
Repco's engine development arm that was involved, as I found out, in the development of both Holden F5000 and L34 engines and some of our chats
when I was a young hoon, just with a licence making 179s go faster were rather interesting

The F5000 block was a standard Holden 308 casting... but made from SG Iron (same as the hipo Chev small blocks used in NASCAR etc)
It was known at REDCO as the 'iron' block and was sent to REDCO unfettled (as cast if you like and untouched) from the holden foundry.

Development of that block resulted in some strengthening (extra material in places) as well as design changes to overcome some flaws
.. most noticably the cracking around the rear main that was fixed by enlarging and adding external webbing to support the rear main area
as well as thickening of the deck to also prevent cracking

These design changes carried over into the L34 engine block.. but this was made from the usual Holden 'grey'cast iron as used in all Holden motors
at that time. These blocks were marked with an 'X' at the back of the block to distinguish them but In the end, ALL 308 blocks got the strengthening
... it was just simpler for Holden to make one only sand core to cast 308 blocks in the Pt Melbourne foundry.


* Mr Berryman (as I called him) finished his apprenticeship and then after a few years at the start of the 80s went and worked for Repcos
engine parts plant at Maidstone. Very dull and boring he did not stay long but went and opened up his own 'engine' shop in Moorabbin
(not far from home). He built engines for me, did all manner of balancing (tailshafts, cranks, driveshafts etc) and also did the machining and
balancing work for Larry Perkins after he set up Perkins Engineering at Moorabbin airport

Edited by user Tuesday, 29 December 2020 5:49:57 PM(UTC)  | Reason: spelling

Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
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