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Sandaro Offline
#21 Posted : Wednesday, 30 September 2020 9:35:36 PM(UTC)
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If you got the ruling you wanted, what are you huffing and puffing in here about? Happy days for you. Case closed.
Loud Perth Offline
#22 Posted : Wednesday, 30 September 2020 10:21:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Devo Go to Quoted Post
Was there a guarantee of its originality or was it an "opinion" given to Manheim at the time.
Most letters I see from HHS dont guarantee anything they just give an opinion on the likelyhood.
I think most would agree that once tags are gone positive ID is lost no matter how much history there is as proof.
Ultimately I always thought it was buyer beware I guess.


Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
What was the "ruling made by the division of the Western Australian Government responsible for the regulation of Australian Consumer Law following their review of all relevant evidence" ?

That hasn't been made clear up to this point.

Dr erry


Two intelligent questions, thank you gentlemen. The answers to each are relevant to each other.

Consumer Protection is part of the Department of Mining, Industry Regulation and Safety. They are responsible for regulating Australian Consumer Law and have found Manheim to have breached it. Manheim has no evidence to prove the car is genuine as advertised - as Consumer Protection has categorically stated they have done. As I implied, perhaps not clearly, in my detailed post.

The people that form Consumer Protection are also responsible for the issue of licenses such as, in this case, the Motor Vehicle Sales licenses and General Auctioneers licenses held by Manheim employees. So the livelihood of those employees is potentially reliant upon Holden Historical Services releasing the evidence needed to clear their name.

Because Manheim only received an opinion from Holden Historical Services stating the car is genuine. They do not have evidence to show that it is.

And Holden Historical Services either have this information, or they do not. Because it is not possible to determine a vehicle is a genuine GTS '327' from just a chassis number alone without having the rest of the information needed.

So, do they, or don't they?
Loud Perth Offline
#23 Posted : Wednesday, 30 September 2020 10:31:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
If you got the ruling you wanted, what are you huffing and puffing in here about? Happy days for you. Case closed.


I apologise, I must not be communicating effectively.

I have not received the information needed to prove my car is genuine because Holden Historical Services has refused and ignored my requests to release it. The case is not closed and it is unclear what motivates their actions.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify things for those that did not understand.

Edited by user Wednesday, 30 September 2020 10:33:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Dr Terry Offline
#24 Posted : Wednesday, 30 September 2020 10:39:00 PM(UTC)
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I doubt very much that HHS has all of the detailed production records to 100% verify the accuracy of a car's description from the other side of the continent.

I'm sure that he has given an "educated opinion" to the best of his knowledge, based on the info provided by either Manheims or the vendor.

The problem I think goes back to the original advertising pre-auction. Was it advertised straight out as a "Genuine Monaro HK GTS 327" ?

Most of the auctions of this type that I've attended the auctioneer usually uses terms such as "to the best of our knowledge" or "based or expert's opinion" & so on.

I didn't attend this auction so I can't comment.

I've spent many hours "verifying" these types of cars for both buyers & vendors & you can't jump to conclusions, you can only state facts based of what you see in front of you. Unfortunately in this case there were no tags to see.

I'm not going to blame anyone here but somebody has "jumped to conclusions".

Dr Terry

Edited by user Thursday, 1 October 2020 3:42:25 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Devo Offline
#25 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 6:25:01 AM(UTC)
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I think they advertised it as a hk gts 327 bathurst spec but also stated the tags were missing.

Imagine you own a gts 327 car tags and all. You owned it from new. Then the tags are stolen.along with logbook etc.

You know it's a 327. Are you allowed to advertise it that way but state the identifying tags and paperwork is gone ?

I would say yes and it's the buyer that must value it as is.if the buyer requested proof after the sale I dont think they would have to.

In this case it was opinions based on experience and likelyhood it would seem. Nothing 100%.if you received all the information offered at the time of sale I can see it being difficult to push anyone for more.probably gutsy advertising from manheim
Dr Terry Offline
#26 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 6:39:04 AM(UTC)
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I don't think "gutsy" is the right word.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
 1 user thanked Dr Terry for this useful post.
Loud Perth on 1/10/2020(UTC)
wbute Offline
#27 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 10:33:25 AM(UTC)
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I was Inder the impression that most auction houses sold things under the proviso that items were at buyers discretion or similar. If the specifically stated that it was a genuine car and could be proven without the tags, then I guess it would be different. However, auction houses only sell on behalf of a vendor and it’s always the vendors property until sold.
HK1837 Offline
#28 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 10:59:25 AM(UTC)
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As far as I am aware HHS do not verify cars, full stop. They will issue you a "birth certificate" for a car provided you can provide them with all tag details and also if necessary info off the body to ensure that it is real, but the Certificate is only for how the car was built, not what it is today. If you do not have those tag details then you won't get a Certificate - this is a check so cars do not get made into something they no longer are. This is quite clear on the website: http://www.holdenhistori...ices.com.au/order-report

If someone asks about a car with mismatching information then as far as I am aware they'd be told there is a problem and that HHS cannot help. I'd do exactly the sam ething if it was me.

I get asked all the time "is this a Sandman". My normal reply is "the tags were originally on a Sandman" or "you cannot tell from ther tags, you will have to investigate the body" or "it is impossible to tell". If I'm asked if a particular body with no tags was a Sandman, I would reply "even if I could help you there is no point, it no longer has tags so it is just a ute or van body". Even if I had the details off that body recorded up to 25 years ago, there is no way I'd give that detail out, as it allows possible fraudulent activity to occur and not just by the current owner. Plus the data was normally provided in confidence that it would never be shared. The tags have been proven in overseas courts to be the identity of a vehicle, so once they are gone the car is no longer that identity, it is just a HK coupe. I have bought plenty of rarer HK-HG coupes in the past with no tags, including two manual GTS350's and a HK V8 GTS. All were wrecked and cut up for spares. There is no point in building them as they are a gender neutral car, far better to wreck them and use all the bits inclding rust repair sections restoring a car that does wear its original tags. I have seen a lot of L34, A9X, LE, HJ GTS coupe etc wrecked for the same reason, they are missing tags or have been stolen and recovered and sold at salvage auctions wearing Sunbird or HQ coupe or whatever tags or no tags as the thieves took them off and destroyed them. Doesn't mattter that it once was an LE coupe, it isn't anymore and there is far more value in wrecking it out that wasting $ restoring a car that has no identity.
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Devo Offline
#29 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 11:04:59 AM(UTC)
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I'd be surprised if the auction house didnt have some fineprint in their contracts.
Something along the lines of

"While we have made every effort to ensure the description is correct. We take no responsibility for its accuracy and highly recomend an inspection prior to bidding"
Balfizar Offline
#30 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 2:36:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: supercoach24 Go to Quoted Post
I find HHS useless. You ask them a question and like a politician they give you an answer that does not even relate to the question you asked. The question being asked is not even sensitive information, it’s a question about a Holden Dealer which they have the answer to, but yet they are not interested in helping. But they are more then willing to take all your vehicles details for their own personal use.


Message me about "it’s a question about a Holden Dealer" I may be able to help.
Loud Perth Offline
#31 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 9:39:36 PM(UTC)
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I can understand everyone being really interested in the situation with Manheim. It is very involved. What they have done in response to my simple request of "prove the car is genuine, as advertised" will make you laugh in disbelief.

I have a very particular set of skills. This sees them facing consequences from various government organisations. I am completely comfortable in the knowledge that I am coming out of this situation with a genuine GTS '327' or the current car and a great deal of money.

I will share more if and when it's appropriate. Can we leave that part for now and look at the bit that I find really interesting please?

As mentioned, Ben provided an opinion from the other side of the continent with just two photos. I have dozens of emails and in almost every one of them he states the car is genuine. I won't share them as they are from him to me.

I will share the last one I sent to him though, as he did not reply. It summarises his responses. As much as I respect him, I am upset that he has helped create this situation and has refused to help rectify it.



Hi Ben,

You have been very generous with your time and I thank you for it. Here is my understanding of your information.

Manheim provided you with two photographs of the car:

  • One of the engine number
  • One of the chassis number

From seeing these two photos you determined the car to be a genuine 1968 Holden HK Monaro GTS ‘327’.

The photo of the engine number shows it is originally from an Adelaide-built GTS ‘327’ as:
  • The number appears on a list of all engine numbers supplied to GTS ‘327’ vehicles.
  • You recognise the engine numbers are stamped in the appropriate manner.
  • Holden ‘327’ engine numbers identify the factory to which the engine was delivered.

The chassis number identifies the car body is from Adelaide. There is nothing to distinguish this number from any other HK Holden built at Adelaide as:
  • There is no list of GTS ‘327’ chassis numbers.
  • There is no special stamping technique used to identify a GTS ‘327’ chassis number.
  • Other than the engine currently being located in the car, no evidence exists to link this chassis number to this GTS ‘327’ engine.

Still, you have identified the car is a genuine GTS ‘327’. You have also stated that the engine “belongs” with the car and the two “left the factory together”. You have been able to determine this as:
  • The chassis number fits into an “acceptable” range.
  • You have come across other ‘327’ cars that wear ID plates on either side of this engine number.

However this method cannot be adequate as:
  • Apparently, Holden number sequencing prevents establishing relationships between various ID numbers.
  • The “acceptable” range includes other known GTS ‘327’ vehicles.
  • When asked, you cannot identify the date of manufacture for a specific car, only the month.

You have also stated there is only one record of a “Goya Red” GTS ‘327’ produced in Adelaide, and that the record is for my car.

The only means of making these determinations is to have used information specific to this particular car. And for it to have been in your possession prior to Manheim's contact.

I believe this accurately summarises the outcome of your replies to my enquiries. Additionally you:
  • Estimated the vehicle value to be $200,000.
  • Are aware the vehicle value is affected without evidence that it is genuine.
  • Are aware your opinion contributed to the sale price of the vehicle.


Again I ask these questions:

Who benefits from him withholding this information? Who has already been financially disadvantaged so far?

And who do you think Manheim will pursue for damages if no evidence is released to substantiate his opinion?

I'm not in the wrong here folks. I'm absolutely correct and have all the evidence necessary to show it.

Edited by user Thursday, 1 October 2020 9:42:40 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Devo Offline
#32 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 9:58:44 PM(UTC)
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Can I ask what evidence you were offered prior to purchase.
Sandaro Offline
#33 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 11:25:57 PM(UTC)
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Can I ask whether any expert has subsequently looked at the car in question and said it is definitely NOT a monaro GTS 327?
Loud Perth Offline
#34 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 11:43:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Devo Go to Quoted Post
Can I ask what evidence you were offered prior to purchase.


I don't mind the question it's just that it's not very relevant I'm afraid. Prior to purchase, post purchase - the question is what evidence is there at all.

Originally Posted by: camaroTT400 Go to Quoted Post
Bro , firstly not sure what you are trying to achieve here and secondly Ben owes you nothing.
Thirdly Ben has gone above and beyond to help many people , mostly for free. Also Ol mate calling HHS "USELESS"
just goes to show what sort of a GOOSE he is. Your car looks very much like a HK GTS 327 to me , minus the plates.
I would restore it exactly like that, a HK GTS 327 minus plates. Good luck man. Hope all of this doesn't bite you on the ass ...


That is an opinion belonging to you.

I'm not here to hurt your feelings. Please understand that I am extremely good at research and connecting events. Everything I have written here I can support with evidence - do I seem like a person who would risk making defamatory statements?

Ben has made statements on the originality of the car. He needs to support them. At some point I can have the court order him to - that's another fact. But I prefer this way for now, I have no need to do this behind closed doors.

There is zero chance this will "bite me on the ass". Promise.

Please, review the research I have done and the email to Ben. See if you can work out what he knows and how he knows it.
Loud Perth Offline
#35 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 11:45:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
Can I ask whether any expert has subsequently looked at the car in question and said it is definitely NOT a monaro GTS 327?


Of course, that's a great question.

Can you please first tell me an expert who can determine if a car is definitely a GTS '327'? I'm in WA, I'd love to have them stop by.
Loud Perth Offline
#36 Posted : Thursday, 1 October 2020 11:54:21 PM(UTC)
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Who will be the first person to look at the only thing that is important?

How did Holden Historical Services manage to determine the car is a GTS '327' from a photo of the engine number and a photo of the chassis number?

Everything else is, with all due respect, irrelevant. Again, I can understand your interest. But it's not the part that's interesting.
Loud Perth Offline
#37 Posted : Friday, 2 October 2020 4:28:30 AM(UTC)
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Allow me to introduce a scenario.

But first this fact again:

Ben has stated the car is a genuine GTS '327' based upon a photo of the engine number and a photo of the chassis number.

If there is serious resistance to that fact then perhaps I can forward the emails from Ben and Manheim to someone impartial for verification.

Now, that scenario:

  • Ben has been collecting identity data on Monaros for decades.

  • Ben, through Holden Historical Services, has access to the Monaro Register.

  • The Monaro Register has identity information collected by enthusiasts from cars in Australia for decades.

  • When you want to verify the identity of a car you send the identity information to Holden Historical Services.

We should all agree on that, yes?

Hang on to your hats:

  • This car sat in a shed from 1982 to 2019.

  • People have been in the shed and seen the car between 1982 and 2019.

  • People have seen the identity information on the car between 1982 and 2019.

  • Someone has recorded the identity information.

  • The information has made its way onto the Monaro Register.

  • The information verified the vehicle as a genuine GTS '327' as the numbers formed a correct "set"


Therefore when Manheim supplied the two photos to Holden Historical Services they were able to check the Monaro Register and confirm the vehicle is a genuine GTS '327'. Because they already had the information to know it was.

The missing tags did not matter, their information was already recorded. This is how the car is known to have a factory Goya Red interior.



Already some of you are thinking that I didn't pay for that information. You're not entirely wrong. I didn't pay for the physical tags - "missing tags". I did pay for a genuine GTS '327'. That information is required to prove the car is a genuine GTS '327'.


There are these other possibilities - I will be impressed if someone can add to the list:

  1. Ben has done exactly the same research as I have. He has been provided the tag information however it was not from my car, it is from a car that they do not belong on. He therefore has a record of this other car and knows the tags do not belong on it.

  2. Ben has "miraculously" located an original factory record belonging to the car. I have determined the PSN to within 80 numbers, it wouldn't be hard to find a red / red GTS '327' on a list, were one to still exist. But these records did not contain all identity information.

  3. There is no way to tell. This would be the very worst outcome for Holden Historical Services.

This is the part you should all be concentrating on:

  • Which is it?
  • Who is financially advantaged and disadvantaged?
  • Who is deciding who gets to be advantaged and disadvantaged?

Edited by user Friday, 2 October 2020 4:32:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

wbute Offline
#38 Posted : Friday, 2 October 2020 6:22:24 AM(UTC)
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I have one question, when you bought this car were you aware that missing tags significantly effected it’s identification and value?
Devo Offline
#39 Posted : Friday, 2 October 2020 9:01:09 AM(UTC)
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It seems this started out one of two ways.
1. Went in guns blazing purchased the car unaware the missing plates would affect bc the value this much. A fact that has been highlighted since purchase.

2.you are well aware of the legal world and you saw an opportunity. Unlikely but possible.

Probably a combination of 1 and 2

I'm very interested in this as I was recently ripped by a motor dealer and I'm currently claiming through the motor dealers fund.

My case largely relies on what I was aware of at the time of purchase.

Edited by user Friday, 2 October 2020 9:02:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

gm5735 Offline
#40 Posted : Friday, 2 October 2020 11:08:34 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
I can understand everyone being really interested in the situation with Manheim. It is very involved. What they have done in response to my simple request of "prove the car is genuine, as advertised" will make you laugh in disbelief.


Actually, no Adam. It is neither interesting or involved. It is a contractual dispute between you, the purchaser, and Manheim auctions, the vendor. Anyone who saw the sale ad would concede that it is at best inaccurate.

Quote:
I have a very particular set of skills.


A pathetic plagiarism of a fictional Liam Neeson character. You'll have to do better than that Adam.

Quote:
This sees them facing consequences from various government organisations. I am completely comfortable in the knowledge that I am coming out of this situation with a genuine GTS '327' or the current car and a great deal of money.


Now we get to your real motivation for this ill judged vendetta. Since you claim to like facts, but have so far failed to master them, let the record show that you paid $138,000 for a vehicle without body ID plate or VIN plate. Further, you chose to ignore Clause 24 of the Terms and conditions of Auction.



Quote:
I will share more if and when it's appropriate. Can we leave that part for now and look at the bit that I find really interesting please?


Is this the part where we get to talk about the potential for you to have knowingly received stolen goods? I'm looking forward to that part.


Quote:
As mentioned, Ben provided an opinion from the other side of the continent with just two photos. I have dozens of emails and in almost every one of them he states the car is genuine. I won't share them as they are from him to me.


I can understand why you wouldn't want to do this. Actually there are at least 16, and in none of them does he make such an unequivocal statement.

Quote:
I will share the last one I sent to him though, as he did not reply. It summarises his responses. As much as I respect him, I am upset that he has helped create this situation and has refused to help rectify it.


So this is your misinterpretation or distortion of his words. Hardly a useful addition to the discussion, but I'll leave it here.

Quote:
Hi Ben,

You have been very generous with your time and I thank you for it. Here is my understanding of your information.

Manheim provided you with two photographs of the car:

  • One of the engine number
  • One of the chassis number

From seeing these two photos you determined the car to be a genuine 1968 Holden HK Monaro GTS ‘327’.


Incorrect. The statement to Manheim was that the engine number and chassis number were consistent with each other, and that Manheim needed to engage an expert to inspect the vehicle in person. It would appear this was not done.


Quote:
The photo of the engine number shows it is originally from an Adelaide-built GTS ‘327’ as:
  • The number appears on a list of all engine numbers supplied to GTS ‘327’ vehicles.


Incorrect. The list refers to engine number allocation for all Adelaide vehicles fitted with Chevrolet engines, and includes Chevrolet and Pontiac CKD vehicles. As no assembly suffix is included in the list there is no way to identify the recipient vehicle. You have been told this on several occasions but are either unwilling or unable to understand it.


Quote:
  • You recognise the engine numbers are stamped in the appropriate manner.
  • Holden ‘327’ engine numbers identify the factory to which the engine was delivered.
    The chassis number identifies the car body is from Adelaide. There is nothing to distinguish this number from any other HK Holden built at Adelaide as:
    • There is no list of GTS ‘327’ chassis numbers.
    • There is no special stamping technique used to identify a GTS ‘327’ chassis number.
    • Other than the engine currently being located in the car, no evidence exists to link this chassis number to this GTS ‘327’ engine.


  • A lie. You have registration documentation for the car back to 1977.

    Quote:
    Still, you have identified the car is a genuine GTS ‘327’.


    Another distortion. The car has not been unreservedly identified as such by HHS.


    Quote:
    You have also stated that the engine “belongs” with the car and the two “left the factory together”. You have been able to determine this as:
    • The chassis number fits into an “acceptable” range.
    • You have come across other ‘327’ cars that wear ID plates on either side of this engine number.

    However this method cannot be adequate as:
    • Apparently, Holden number sequencing prevents establishing relationships between various ID numbers.
    • The “acceptable” range includes other known GTS ‘327’ vehicles.
    • When asked, you cannot identify the date of manufacture for a specific car, only the month.

    You have also stated there is only one record of a “Goya Red” GTS ‘327’ produced in Adelaide, and that the record is for my car.

    The only means of making these determinations is to have used information specific to this particular car. And for it to have been in your possession prior to Manheim's contact.


    An interesting assertion. How did you independently come into possession of this information in December 2019? That, and the paint code. Most informed people, when wishing to ascertain the trim colour, look through the window.


    Quote:
    I believe this accurately summarises the outcome of your replies to my enquiries. Additionally you:
    • Estimated the vehicle value to be $200,000.
    • Are aware the vehicle value is affected without evidence that it is genuine.
    • Are aware your opinion contributed to the sale price of the vehicle.


    Almost entirely falsehoods. And you know it. A pathetic attempt to manoeuvre yourself into a financial gain. You really are a transparent little grub, aren't you?


    Quote:
    Again I ask these questions:

    Who benefits from him withholding this information? Who has already been financially disadvantaged so far?

    And who do you think Manheim will pursue for damages if no evidence is released to substantiate his opinion?

    I'm not in the wrong here folks. I'm absolutely correct and have all the evidence necessary to show it.


    Let us add a few of your more famous quotes:

    Quote:
    "My knowledge of these cars at the time of purchase was extremely limited..."


    Obviously. Which makes one wonder why you didn't have a knowledgeable person inspect the vehicle in accordance with Clause 24 of the Terms and Conditions of Sale, and good old fashioned common sense.

    Oh, here is the answer:
    Quote:
    "Every single Holden enthusiast from WA (and some from interstate) spent a great deal of time looking the car over ……there was no suggestion the it was not authentic"


    Every single Holden enthusiast from WA? There are more than a few I know of that are surprised to learn that.

    Fact: HHS has provided an invaluable service to many real (That's not you, Adam) enthusiasts over many years as a mostly free service, at what I assume is a substantial personal cost.

    Fact: Any information which HHS may or may not have has been obtained under both a real and an implied contract of confidentiality. That means you don't get to have it, Adam.

    Fact: Due to your negligence the identity of the vehicle was not established prior to you purchasing it.

    Fact: Your twisting, conniving, oily and slimy manoeuvring is designed with one purpose - to return a financial benefit to you. You paid the market price for the vehicle as presented. The auction result determines the market value. Now you seek to slander, besmirch and blacken the name of a man and a service which has helped thousands of car enthusiasts over many years.

    Fact: Your contract is with Manheim. They are answerable for any discrepancy and not HHS.

    I note that you bemoan the lack of qualified people to inspect your vehicle in WA. There are several in WA, and several more in SA. I personally have 40 years experience in specifically 81837 vehicle identification. Unfortunately for you, none of us feel motivated to assist you, and the number of people on this list grows with every post you make.

    As part of your exhaustive research, look up the words ostracise, cur and, if your Latin extends to it, the expression "persona non grata".
    I doubt they will have much impact on a borderline sociopath such as yourself, but it cant hurt to try.


    Your consistent quasi legal sabre rattling is becoming, frankly, quite boring and monotonous and drips with sanctimony. Why don't you push the button and unleash the hounds? I suspect I know the answer.

    Desist hijacking this forum for your own personal gain, as I'm sure your continued low grade irritant drivel will result in the entire sorry tale being unceremoniously deleted by the forum moderators.













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