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morsesworld Offline
#101 Posted : Saturday, 2 May 2020 5:26:02 PM(UTC)
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Hi Guys, you would have to measure the splines of both Fine & Coarse Axles if you had some available.
Also the Diameter of the fine spline axle could be slightly larger than the coarse axle or just at the point at the base of each cut spline the axles diameter may be greater than the coarse axles at that point. Thereby the larger diameter would mean a stronger axle.
Smitty2 Offline
#102 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 9:24:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
I would like to know from an engineering point of view how fine spline is stronger than coarse spline. I know the reputation, just not the science behind it.
...............


from my Bosch book of auto engineering and I quote :

The fine splines are stronger for a number of reasons: fine splines allow for a larger root diameter, the same reason that fine thread bolts are stronger
than the same size coarse thread bolt when placed in tension and cutting a fine pitch leaves more of the axle (or bolt) undisturbed



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Sandaro Offline
#103 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 11:20:19 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Morses and Smitty. That makes sense that it allows the core diameter to remain thicker. It's counter to what I always assumed that it was to do with tooth strength
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Smitty2 on 3/05/2020(UTC)
morsesworld Offline
#104 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 12:04:29 PM(UTC)
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Hi Smitty, Morse here,
Thanks for the Backup, I might try and buy that book and research it.
Because I am not an Automotive Engineer just a Civil Engineer and a Boilermaker with a huge iterest in cars.
castellan Offline
#105 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 12:21:37 PM(UTC)
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I have seen some axles that the spline part is thicker and then the shaft goes thinner somewhat and then tapers wider to the wheel end.


Then look at a Holden 1 tonne axle they step up in 3 stages like

I have heard of Ford 9 inch axles snapping at the wheel bearing, due to heat of a buggered bearings or fitted wrong. the heat generated in the diff to the point of the spline ? enough oil is their to cool it ?

I had a Holden HQ 3sp box spline on the yoke that I could not pull out of the gearbox, I wonder why or how that could be the case ? I had to get my dads car to pull it out. I tossed some oil on the spline and re fitted it without a problem at all, she just slipped in and out on the spline easy as straight up. she had did the uni joint, it must of got real hot and fryed the oil on the spline ? the uni joint was fine as to feel no movement in it but it vibrated like a bastard, until you hit 90mph so I had driven Bris to Bundy like that, so it may of got hot, when I pulled the uni out she just dry as. put a new one in and no problem at all. I only bought the car a week before so she had a roadworthy done on him.
morsesworld Offline
#106 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 12:51:29 PM(UTC)
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Some axles the Splines are rolled on. The axle is heated Red then then the spline is rolled on. This will cause the metal to move upwards. Then the axle is cooled down in a controlled area. It looks to me like HQ to HZ standard axles were done this way. Makes sense because the production times would of probably been quicker and also cheaper costs than Machining.

My Brother was a Fitter & Turner at Russell's in Huntingdale Vic., where Heat Treating was done on seatbelt bolts etc.for Ford in the 90's. Before everybody lost there Jobs.

Yes if a Bad Wheel Bearing is allowed to Heat up enough it can and will soften the axle metal next to it or under it.
HK1837 Offline
#107 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 12:52:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
I have seen some axles that the spline part is thicker and then the shaft goes thinner somewhat and then tapers wider to the wheel end.


Then look at a Holden 1 tonne axle they step up in 3 stages like



That is rolled spline vs cut spline. The standard axle spline has a thin heat treatment and the spline is rolled, where it was rolled used to be the same diameter as the rest of the shaft. The one tonner axles were machined, splines cut and then heat treated. The heat treatment went deep enough to recut a spline when the axle was shortened, like a drum brake 9” axle.
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Smitty2 on 3/05/2020(UTC)
wbute Offline
#108 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 1:59:42 PM(UTC)
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Like bolts,rolled or cut thread. You can’t re-cut a rolled thread because the bolt is thinner than the thread, a rolled spline will be the same and therefore they are probably weaker, but cheaper to make.
Smitty2 Offline
#109 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 5:47:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: morsesworld Go to Quoted Post
Hi Smitty, Morse here,
Thanks for the Backup, I might try and buy that book and research it.
Because I am not an Automotive Engineer just a Civil Engineer and a Boilermaker with a huge iterest in cars.


the Bosch book is good ( I bought the first edition back in the early 80s)
and the latest is available from Bosch .. but exxie about $300!

the one you really want, its the gospel if you are interested in this topic -
Handbook of Automotive Engineering ...
by Professors Heinrich Buschmann and Paul Koessler
published in Oz by SAE Australia

I can't afford it (it retails here in Oz for $495 ! ouch) but we have a number of ex-Holden engineers
working for us now (my work) and guess what.. they all have copies Applause

the other one I find useful (it came free from my now deceased Father-in-law)
is the 'Engineers Manual' by Ralph Hudson, basically the 'bible'
My version was published in 1959 but is unchanged today (and it is cheap to buy) Drool

Edited by user Sunday, 3 May 2020 5:53:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Smitty2 Offline
#110 Posted : Sunday, 3 May 2020 5:58:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: morsesworld Go to Quoted Post
Some axles the Splines are rolled on. The axle is heated Red then then the spline is rolled on. This will cause the metal to move upwards. Then the axle is cooled down in a controlled area. It looks to me like HQ to HZ standard axles were done this way. Makes sense because the production times would of probably been quicker and also cheaper costs than Machining.
..........................


a high tensile bolt, to make that grading or rating MUST have rolled threads.
I guess the same applies with car axles (which have to sustain huge torque inputs)
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HK1837 Offline
#111 Posted : Tuesday, 5 May 2020 11:56:44 AM(UTC)
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Thought of another question.

We know that the final evolution of the Holden V8 ended up with basically three maximum capacities:

253ci/4.2L

308ci/5.0L (ignoring the 304ci/5.0L as this was never planned, just a choice forced upon GMH).

350ci/5.7L

308 ci was always the planned limit back then of the final evolution of the engine over 10 years so that the initial tooling investment would not need changing for in excess of 10 years. Like the 6cyl they always planned to start off smaller and work their way upwards in ci and power. They never initially envisaged the 350ci version I believe.

So what were the initial proposed capacities for the standard (which eventually became the 253) and performance (eventually 308) Holden V8 when planning started circa 1964?
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SLENUT Offline
#112 Posted : Wednesday, 6 May 2020 9:40:16 AM(UTC)
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237 for the standard 292 for the performance?
The Commodore SL/E fanatic.
Sandaro Offline
#113 Posted : Wednesday, 6 May 2020 2:13:58 PM(UTC)
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Good question that, I got no idea on the proposed capacities. Still on the same subject though, a new trivia question.

Besides the HR holden what other vehicle did Holden reputedly use as a test mule for yet to be released holden V8?
Shearer Offline
#114 Posted : Wednesday, 6 May 2020 2:35:48 PM(UTC)
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237 and 264ci V8?

A test mule for the Holden V8 would need to be built prior 1969 a release? A HK?

Edited by user Wednesday, 6 May 2020 2:49:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

wbute Offline
#115 Posted : Wednesday, 6 May 2020 3:09:04 PM(UTC)
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237,263 and possibility of adding a 289.
They also proposed a diesel version.
That was the original proposal by Ed Silins in 65.

Edited by user Wednesday, 6 May 2020 3:11:11 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

wbute Offline
#116 Posted : Wednesday, 6 May 2020 3:12:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
Good question that, I got no idea on the proposed capacities. Still on the same subject though, a new trivia question.

Besides the HR holden what other vehicle did Holden reputedly use as a test mule for yet to be released holden V8?

A Falcon and a Valiant!
Sandaro Offline
#117 Posted : Wednesday, 6 May 2020 3:19:34 PM(UTC)
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Half right there WB
castellan Offline
#118 Posted : Wednesday, 6 May 2020 4:10:46 PM(UTC)
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Holden thought about chopping off 2 cylinder's of our Holden V8 for the VN Commodore 3.1L and 3.8L but went with the Buick 3.8L V6

Just think if Holden made a Buick 3.3L that would make say 108kw with EFI I would think. but why not just dig the old 3.3L six up then.
Holden go on about the old Holden six not worthy of cutting it in the unleaded world, what BS ! just look what they did with the Buick heads they is iron.
So a 3.3L would of been fine, just maybe do what Ford did with their X flow alloy head and do the same intake and exhaust change with no exhaust valves side by side and with EFI Look at the power that could of made and a compression of say 9.4:1 on 91 octane. then you would have more power than a Nissan 3.0L 6 cyl. with more torque down low and mid range. such a 3.3L 6 would be much smoother than the V6 chaff cuter rubbish that they had. what power would something like that have 115kw 120kw ? and fully balance the engine, it would have roller lifters as well with ADR and a Turbo option 150KW easy.

I have the Project VN Book and they go on about the Buick V6 as if it's so great, I think it's a blight ! especially the first V6, the next V6 is a bit better and the VS V6 is fine.
They talk about the 3.8L V6 being a good size 6 cyl for that size car I would agree, not to mention they are trying to verse the EA Falcon as Aussies wanted a big car then.
The EA Falcon 3.2L 6 did not survive sales must of been low ? it only had the cheap crap Fuel injection system on it tho. so the 3.2L did not make it to the EB Falcon. I think because of the EA having the 3sp auto and stupid high ratio diff. I drove a 3.9L Fairmont Giha 3sp auto once and boy was that gutless off the mark, it would not eve spin the wheels taking off on grass, where a V6 VN auto would spin on bitumen taking off.
So lucky that the Falcon was stuck with the 3sp auto as it could not get the 4sp auto at the start of the EA Falcon, or the VN V6 Holden may of been a disaster in sales.
HK1837 Offline
#119 Posted : Wednesday, 6 May 2020 4:18:49 PM(UTC)
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WBute has them correct. These were to be the engines introduced for HT. HK was to be a 283ci SBC. This was all proposed in 1964 as part of the forward planning, documented in January 1965 and developed during 1965.

237ci 9.2:1 3.625" (3 5/8") bore, 2.875" (3 7/8") stroke. 162hp SAE gross
262ci 9.2:1 3.8125" (3 13/16") bore, 2.875" (3 7/8") stroke. Also referred to as 263ci in some places. 180hp SAE gross.

Both 2BBL engines.

The 262/263 was to grow over time to become 276ci with a 3.9063" (3 29/32") bore and 289ci with a 4" bore. Eventually being stroked to 308ci with a 3.0625" stroke.

The 237 would then be stroked to 3.0625" to give a 253ci engine.

The minimum and maximum GM1 (SAE net) output targets were:

237 (2BBL) 125hp@4000rpm, 202lbft@2400rpm (this is also quoted as SAE gross (GM20) target of 162hp@4400rpm, 237lbft@2400rpm).
308 (4BBL) 192hp@4400rpm, 282lbft@2800rpm.

Edited by user Wednesday, 6 May 2020 4:27:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#120 Posted : Saturday, 30 May 2020 2:28:59 PM(UTC)
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How many CFM is a Stromberg WW2 on the 253 V8's and is the 186 S the same CFM not to mention the GTR 161.

Also what about the later HQ 253 got another 2bbl carby for a wile why was that and was the CFM more giving the 253 more power.

Also did the Falcons XR-ZA 289 V8 and XT-ZB 302, XW-ZC 302, XY-ZD 302 and the 302 Cleveland in the XA-ZF 302, XB-ZF 302 and not to mention so did the 302 V8 F100's as well. not to mention the XY-A 250 2v.

Our Valiant's did not get the Stromberg ww2 that I know of as from the VF Slant 6 with the big 2 barrel on to the Hemi 6 got the same 2V carby as the Standard Falcon 2V 351 V8 in the XY-ZD, XA-ZF, XB-ZG I think that they were all 351CFM as well, so maybe them HQ 253 were 351CFM and the ww2 Stromberg were 280CFM.

As far as I know the WW2 Stromberg can come in a range from 260 to 300CFM but the Carter 2V can go down to 280CFM I think.

Oh and the ZD Fairlane 351 V8 with the 4 BBL carby it's only about 480CFM and remember when you go into 4bbl the CFM change as to a 1V or 2V in how they are rated, so the 4bbl 480CFM becomes much less than a 480CFM 2V. so all this talk of a ZC 351W 4V with 4speed manual option being a rocket is not as such a big deal as people make out.
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