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80569K Offline
#21 Posted : Tuesday, 18 September 2012 12:53:56 AM(UTC)
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By way of apology for the thread drift and to demonstrate that there are indeed more important things in life...


http://devour.com/video/heineken-the-switch/
Utility8 Offline
#22 Posted : Tuesday, 18 September 2012 4:51:25 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
quote:
Originally posted by 80569K
Let me get this straight.

You blokes are saying we don't need unions and that they are the root cause of all our problems?

If we didn't have unions we would be just like China/India/Bangladesh/Africa or wherever else the people are exploited by "pommy capitalist" types of people who are realising Gina's $2 a day wet dream.

Unions had their place in Australia in the 50s & 60s, from the 70s to the current day they ARE the root of many of our problems.

IMHO Gina was correct with her comments & said nothing about $2 a day.
quote:
Originally posted by 80569K
I remember the day the Bankcard arrived in the mail, overnight the banks of this country sent every bank account holder a credit card, yep they hooked us on credit and have never looked back and the pollies didn't bat an eyelid.

Whitlam was the instigator of Bankcard, not the banks.

Dr Terry

Although this thread is well away from topic, I feel I must weigh in.
First off, I am a proud member of the United Firefighter's Union.
I agree with the good Dr. on the point he makes about unions having their place in the 50' & 60's, but I disagree that they are the root of many of our problems since then.
With my work as a Professional Firefighter since the late 80�s until now, I have seen many changes with the job that I do.
More efficient & safer fire appliances
Minimum manning of appliances
Minimum personnel on the fire ground
Vastly improved personal protective gear
Improved training regimes
Maintaining & improving our conditions of employment
Federally recognised illnesses through exposure to chemicals on the fire ground
Health monitoring that has identified many health issues of members

OH & S has been the biggest driver of most of the above. I would also say that it has had the most impact by far, not only in my day to day working life, but also in my personal life. I will now always look carefully at how I approach simple work at home. e.g. if I need to get on my roof for repairs, I harness up, knowing full well that I will get back down safely.

An example which is very relevant to the industry of mechanical repairs that we all now embrace as a hobby is the management & handling of asbestos as a deadly product.
Think how brake dust was managed 2 decades ago.....compressed air & no respiratory protection!

Rightly so, my profession now has absolute guidelines on how we manage asbestos when identified at a fire scene.

OH & S is definitely driven by the Unions & supported by the workforce.
Many people can thank their life & working conditions because of Union strength.
Many bosses can & do recognise Unions for the necessary work they do for the safety of staff & the conditions that are afforded.
My point: Unions have always been, & will always be very necessary.

Oh, & Gina? You must be kidding, the tightest fisted, most mean spirited COAT that has ever drawn breath.
Philanthropy, pretty much all the mega rich subscribe to it........not our Gina......God bless her.


Edited by user Tuesday, 18 September 2012 5:11:53 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

utility8
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#23 Posted : Tuesday, 18 September 2012 6:03:21 AM(UTC)
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Whilst I could wax lyrical regarding the industrial relations system of this country all day (I am an IR consultant by trade), i would like to make only a few points.

1. Unions do have some place in society as can contribute to the greater good (we wouldn't have many of the benefits we have now if we didnt). Things like keeping safety a high priority safety and protecting people from bad employers (they're out there) are fine.

2. The problem is that unions go far too far. I work a lot in construction, manufacturing and maritime. In those industries, they don't ask for CPI or or marginally above to keep earnings going and people in an ok position. At the moment (i.e. whilst the rest of the world is suffering and looking to address their issues), they all seek 4 - 5% (which is nearly double CPI for Perth (2.2%) for the last 12 months in the boom state).

In addition, they want to reduce flexibility (so that workers cant be asked to do more with their time at work) and restrict the use of contractors (to prevent access to competitive labour sources).

They also refuse point blank in most cases (in my experience) to address productivity issues and the like.

It is always 'more money - less work'.

3. With respect, to suggest that FWA has gutted unions is quite frankly rubbish...the current legislation (indeed FWA) is the brainchild of Julia and her mates (probably the same ones in the AWU who got her the job). The unions haven't had this much power in near 20 years.

By way of example, an employer cannot even negotiate a deal with its own workforce without the union having to be involved if they have even one member - even if its just one member in a workforce of 300.

Most people forget that unions are political beasts - many like the ego trip, some want to get to government and they way they fund those activities is to sell memberships (gotta pay the bills). As you all know, telling someone the boss is ok and offering a reasonable deal wont do that - it has to be doom and gloom - and so the purported class war goes on (which is somewhat ironic when many employees in those industries are driving ss's and buying investment properties).

They, the same as employers, can very self serving.

In every situation there is the two views of the participants and then there is the truth.


4. It is all too easy to blame the pollies (on both sides) for our financial woes but we as a culture are to blame. We all want big tv's, weekends off, overseas holidays and cheap products. We want to eat steak and not sausages.

The fact is, when holden/ford/toyota want to sell, they have to factor in the wages for themselves, for the component providers, for the sellers, for the materials, manufacturers and all other people involved in the process (which has been fought over and won by unions that hold them to ransom by shutting down their business when they don't get what they want).

They cannot compete with other markets when that occurs.

That's not a political view - its the truth.

my 2c.


A GTS/4 is a monaro - so nuuur
Jul71-Oct74 Offline
#24 Posted : Wednesday, 19 September 2012 9:10:13 AM(UTC)
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Just getting back to the Opel theme of this post, I agree with Dr Terry that this move has a lot to do with the cultural cringe that exists in Australia and the perception that if it is European, it is by definition great.
When I visited Australia last year, I was at a mate's place and his Mum was telling me how great her Mercedes was. I went outside to see this car and it was an entry level C180 from the mid 90's.

Little more than a middle management hack from two decades back. Any current Australian car would eclipse this thing in just about everything
but she wouldn't hear of that. It has a 3 pointed star on the bonnet so it has to be great.
The reality is that there are lots of these people in Australia and they just might by an Opel.
I hope they have their quality sorted out though as up until recently the Opel/ Vauxhall Vectra had a reputation for endless electrical woes .
commodorenut Offline
#25 Posted : Wednesday, 19 September 2012 4:39:20 PM(UTC)
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It's funny how people do have that (unfounded) idea that Euro must be better. I've seen it backfire dozens of times - people who bought a '90s Euro with A/C that barely works in our climate (but the heater is overkill) and woeful parts backup - 12 weeks wait for a door catch that failed - can't drive it with the door swinging open...

I work with a number of nationalities, all well educated. A German fellow who has been here 10 years recently had his company car (G6 Falcon) referred to as a "Taxi" (as most Aussies would do in jest). The person doing the stirring falls into the "euro must be better" mentality. His own daily is one of the early Merc A-class models that he's had loads of trouble with. The German's quick comeback was "I might drive a taxi in this country, but where I come from, your car is not even good enough for a taxi, they use the larger Mercedes."

It's all relative to the local population. A BMW 1-series is seen as no better than an Astra in some places, and I guess that's what area they're trying to get into.
Cheers,

Mick
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Judge a successful man not on how he treats his peers, but on how he treats those less fortunate.
Dr Terry Offline
#26 Posted : Wednesday, 19 September 2012 6:10:37 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by Jul71-Oct74
I hope they have their quality sorted out though as up until recently the Opel/ Vauxhall Vectra had a reputation for endless electrical woes .

The later Opels we saw in Australia (Vectra-C, Astra-H etc.) were far superior to their predecessors, in that area. Having said that, most Euro cars of that era were appalling. BMWs & M/Benzs had what we called 'bio-degradable wiring' where the insulation just crumbled before your eyes after the car's 6th or 7th birthday. Mondeos, Focus's (or is that Foci), KAs etc, were also major piles of excrement electrically.

The Japanese kill the Euros in this area.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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#27 Posted : Wednesday, 19 September 2012 9:04:06 PM(UTC)
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I've just been through the whole look at what is available to replace the V2 CV8 that my mrs drives. We looked at all the European options, including BMW, VW etc. And looked at the Asian offerings like Subaru, Mazda, Toyota, Hyundai etc. I really didn't want to spend more than around $60k as the car (like the V2 CV8) was to be a novated lease through my own company, and at 20% FBT you have to spend $12000pa after tax otherwise you have to start paying FBT ($12000 being 20% of $60k).

After the whole 6-12 months of pain in checking them all out, the frontrunners were a VW Tiguan 155 and a Hyundai ix35. However both of these had issues that really bothered me. The Tiguan is a turbo 4cyl, and VW servicing is a joke costwise, plus indicators were on the wrong side. The ix35 Highlander unfortunately sees the best one to drive being a common rail turbo diesel. It has no particulate filter but still I really didn't want a diesel and there was no V6 option.

But a few days before I went overseas (just got back) I found an 11 month old Lexus RX350 sports luxury, fully optioned. An internal Lexus Australia car, never left the ownership of Lexus. Bought it for near to $50k cheaper than what it was new. It has the best of both worlds: European luxury with Japanese build quality and technology. Toyota mechanicals at Toyota prices (as an RX350 is essentially a fastback Kluger or LWB Rav4). And Toyota servicing costs. Yes crash parts are dear, but Lexus does really good value insurance, this is as cheap to insure as the CV8 with NRMA. Very happy! Not CV8 type power, but goes as hard as a V6 Commodore. Certainly not an underpowered car like everyone else seems to want to sell (go drive a Subaru XV for example - powered by Janome!).

On the Union front. I'm not a great fan of some aspects of Unions. My perception is many are nowadays self fulfilling entities, and care more about their own existence than they do for their members. However the better ones do have a valuable place in Australia. I'm not a fan of FWA. I thought Workchoices was a great idea, and was a really good system IF you were a responsible Employer. I employed 4 x guys in my business on Workchoices contracts - they got paid more and I was able to trade off the harder to deal with stuff like long service leave, basically not keep money aside - they got in as part of their pay. This system was Employer friendly, and meant no dealing with Unions. BUT some irresponsible high profile businesses stuffed it up, and Union advertising (plus Gillard who was I think the shadow employment minster at the time )full of half truths and lies killed it. I vowed never to Employ another person until Union involvement was optional again, and I haven't and won't.

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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