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castellan Offline
#21 Posted : Thursday, 17 March 2022 10:27:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I didn't work like that. Dealers were trained using a GMH training course to sell from stock. They didn't want you to order a car, they wanted to sell you firstly what they had in their own stock. Secondly sell you what was built but not yet allocated to a dealer. Thirdly, sell you off the production schedule. Lastly, place a retail order. Probably 90% of people who went to a dealer thinking they were placing an order were just being sold a car that either existed (as in belonged to Sales) or was in the schedule to be built (belonged to Production). The dealer would have asked what you wanted, as in do you want a 6cyl or a V8? What colour? Will see what we can get. I went through this exact process with my VY SS ute. I went in to order a white manual with black leather trim. They tried to sell me a red auto with standard trim really cheap as it was on the yard. Then tried cars other dealers or off the schedule. Then reluctantly placed a Retail order as it wasn't a car Holden built as a stock order. It took 5 months to get, and they were even less happy with the sale as it was a National Fleet order so it was at a big discount.

Its not just the 173 or 202 that made them "bad" by today's standards, as a driver's car. It is the rear axle ratio that came with them, at least on a Holden other than a tonner. 253 was 3.08 manual, 2.78 auto. 308 was 3.36 manual, 2.78 auto. Those rear axle ratios are fine for cruising and highway speeds although the 308 manual car with its 3.36 rear axle did tend to rev a bit much at highway speeds, although by the time I owned then in the 80's we used to run taller tyres like 245/60/14 which gave you a few more % taller tyre compared to say an E70H14. The 6cyl were not far off valve bouncing with the standard 3.55 with a manual doing 110km/h, they were not much fun. Something like a cab-chassis with a good cyl and Trimatic were OK if you changed the rear axle to 3.08. They weren't exactly fast but they were comfortable at highway speeds and the torque converter covered a lot for the taller rear axle in low speed work like reversing. I did have a 5.0L manual car with a 3.08 rear axle but it was horrible for towing or trying to reverse, best changed out for an auto.

I always used to buy 5.0L/308 Premier or Statesman as everyday drivers and wreck them once rego ran out. So I had a lot of Devilles and Premiers. I tended to steer away from commercials or Holden/Belmont/Kingswood as they were often manual if fitted with a 308. I used to use them as tow cars, and favoured HJ's as they had the best engines and an unbreakable gearbox. The best of the manuals as tow cars were 253 3spd column shift as they always had a 3.08 rear axle (unless they were a cab-chassis) and reverse was good whereas M20 fitted cars were useless as reverse with a 3.08 rear axle was way too high geared and you just burned up clutches, not to mention the 4spd were far more breakage prone than a 3spd. The absolute best high speed cars or towing cars were those fitted with a 350 or 400 or 454 or similar with TH400 and a 2.78 or 2.6 rear axle. I had a HJ Kingswood ute like that, was a great long distance car, got written off in a head on though with a Renault.

The Holden 6 wasn't a poor man's car. The bread and butter Holden was a 186 and later 202 Kingwood sedan, they were the volume cars built for sale that suited the Australian buyers. Someone with a bit more $ forked out for a Premier but normally a 6cyl. For those that thought like we do but didn't want a coupe, they shelled for the top spec Holden (V8 Premier) or the sporty Holden (GTS sedan). They would have optioned a 308/5.0L or even bought a GTS350 sedan, however the (for want of a better word) smarter ones knew how expensive a GTS was to insure so they bought the V8 Kingswood or V8 Premier or optioned V8's in HJ-HZ. That is exactly what the original buyer of my HJ Premier did, he ticked every option he could other than dual exhaust and cloth inserts. It actually cost more than a 5.0L auto GTS however he would have recouped the cost with the first insurance premium.


6 cyl cars back in the day was more of a tradition, Falcons sold 250 6 cyl auto as the key selling car and Valiant the 245 and 265 6 cyl, who bought a 215 ? no one with a brain.
If Holden had say a 250 6 cyl it would of sold such the most. but Australians had a fear of V8's being what ever to using more fuel because V8 meant to them that it was a racing car ? or you were a rat bag ? I worked at a Service Station in 1976 and the BS I would hear from customers was so much total shit ranting about V8's chewing fuel etc, not to mention they never owned one.

The Holden 6 was a town runabout only really. if one was serious on the highway you needed a 253 at least so as not to get the shits stuck behind trucks in QLD back in the days, you needed the extra power to over take the bastards and the wobble boxes as well.

As for your statement of 6cly 110KM/H Liar My dad had a HQ 173 manual and he would drive at 80MPH cruse speed doing 4hr drive I watched siting in the back behind him looking. and it would do 100MPH flat no valve bounce at all with 3.55 diff and my mums HR 186 auto 3.36 diff would do 97 MPH I seen this maybe a 100's times and her HJ 202 auto I do not know 150KM/H for sure but the stupid speedo in them would bounce about to much due to the stupid long setup speedo, just like the HK was the same, I could not truly tell because the bumps in the road made it inaccurate over from around 100mph. not to mention the Falcon speedos up to XY were spastic they would bounce about wildly way out of control like 40MPH or more because of the bumps.

Stock Red motor valve springs start to shimmy over 4700RPM say and they will valve bounce at 5000RPM.

My Falcon XG Longreach ute that I ordered with LSD was built at the latest 7 days before I got it and it was built in Vic it was made in the same month proven by the Comp plate.

My VY SS was the same month build as well that I ordered it June but got it in July a couple of days after I ordered it I think.

As far as the HZ GTS goes I would rather order a 5.0L Premier 4speed with optional GTS instruments 3.08 LSD and just get the dual exhaust on it myself, not to mention toss the std camshaft, block the EGR from entering the intake manifold totally and put stronger valve springs in it without lifting the heads. for as start, because I could not live with how gutless they were.
castellan Offline
#22 Posted : Thursday, 17 March 2022 11:06:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
It is black and white. Sales is all about hype and bullshit - the aim being to take your money off you. I never said I discarded Sales info, I said it the least reliable source of factual information. Even the photos in sales brochures are mostly faked to create an illusion. You go away and try to write a factually correct article about GMH vehicle or series or whatever. Spend hours and hours finding different documents. You quickly learn that amongst 3 different sources you get two different answers. Research some more, think about the timeframe and what was happening, and then the real truth emerges. I can give you dozens of examples of this sort of stuff, where the starting point is an established fact, but when you research it hard enough you find out that established fact is wrong and Chinese whispers have changed it over time.

In the end it is about the cars and how they were built and what they are, not how people interpret something designed in first place to at least bend the truth. Think "Advertised Horsepower" for example of further bullshit. The cars don't lie. Look at a HQ with a later revised body plate where only the optional mechanical items are listed. The car is telling you that it is standard or optioned in those areas, and the info is backed up in ALL GMH publications that tell the truth. When someone comes to me looking at a car that they think might be a HQ Sandman. If its a standard V8 Belmont XX7 van I tell them exactly that - it is a bone stock HQ V8 Belmont Sandman van with no options. Sure its mechanical build configuration on the broadcast sheet would have been L32 M20 GV2 JL2 where a 6cyl Belmont van would read LD1 M15 G91. However the car is an 0270 (or 80270) model which means L32 GV2 and JL2 are standard along with M15. Having option code XX7 replaces M15 with M20 and that is why the BODY tag reads blank M20 blank as the 80270 model has been modified from standard to M20 by the application of the XX7 special vehicle package. So in reality if you are going to start and incorrectly tell people that any HQ with a 253 has been optioned that way, you'd also better start mentioning it being optioned with JL2 front power disc brakes, and a 3.08 Salisbury rear axle (or a 2.78 Salisbury rear axle if its an auto). Reality is all of those are standard on a V8 HQ apart from cab-chassis.


Advertised HP is just that.
Then you have Gross HP ?
Then you have Gross HP standards X, Y or even Z ?
Then you have Net HP.
Then you have Net HP standards X, Y or even Z ?
Then you have DIN HP Standard.
But then you have another loophole with advertising the DIN as we can see with the VS Sequential 5.0L ute claiming 179KW ? well well that is incorrect ! no way could it be at all ! as a VT 5.0L Had Dual exhaust and Dual cat converters ?
Not to mention the 195 KW ute does have Dual exhaust but only a single Cat converter in fact but VT 195kw had Dual cats ? so such is in fact a lie that Holden got around the standards with some how ? Good trick !

Then from about the VZ ? Holden got new figures ECE HP so ok yes they are a better standard again and we can see that some configurations got different power figures, but they do have the same engine ? but the exhaust is different or somewhat different even in the V6 ! so I think they got the loopholes ironed out then ?

Not to mention in the USA with Net figures back then, that we can see say a 1972 4V 351 in different cars have the same engine totally but a Mustang has a free Dual exhaust than what you got in a other Fords, as they have a quieter Dual exhaust but also an optional more free flow Dual exhaust that brings the HP up again to meet the Mustang. not to mention with 2V 351 with single exhaust sedan and wagon it can change and also Dual option on the 2V brings HP up.
HK1837 Offline
#23 Posted : Thursday, 17 March 2022 1:29:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I didn't work like that. Dealers were trained using a GMH training course to sell from stock. They didn't want you to order a car, they wanted to sell you firstly what they had in their own stock. Secondly sell you what was built but not yet allocated to a dealer. Thirdly, sell you off the production schedule. Lastly, place a retail order. Probably 90% of people who went to a dealer thinking they were placing an order were just being sold a car that either existed (as in belonged to Sales) or was in the schedule to be built (belonged to Production). The dealer would have asked what you wanted, as in do you want a 6cyl or a V8? What colour? Will see what we can get. I went through this exact process with my VY SS ute. I went in to order a white manual with black leather trim. They tried to sell me a red auto with standard trim really cheap as it was on the yard. Then tried cars other dealers or off the schedule. Then reluctantly placed a Retail order as it wasn't a car Holden built as a stock order. It took 5 months to get, and they were even less happy with the sale as it was a National Fleet order so it was at a big discount.

Its not just the 173 or 202 that made them "bad" by today's standards, as a driver's car. It is the rear axle ratio that came with them, at least on a Holden other than a tonner. 253 was 3.08 manual, 2.78 auto. 308 was 3.36 manual, 2.78 auto. Those rear axle ratios are fine for cruising and highway speeds although the 308 manual car with its 3.36 rear axle did tend to rev a bit much at highway speeds, although by the time I owned then in the 80's we used to run taller tyres like 245/60/14 which gave you a few more % taller tyre compared to say an E70H14. The 6cyl were not far off valve bouncing with the standard 3.55 with a manual doing 110km/h, they were not much fun. Something like a cab-chassis with a good cyl and Trimatic were OK if you changed the rear axle to 3.08. They weren't exactly fast but they were comfortable at highway speeds and the torque converter covered a lot for the taller rear axle in low speed work like reversing. I did have a 5.0L manual car with a 3.08 rear axle but it was horrible for towing or trying to reverse, best changed out for an auto.

I always used to buy 5.0L/308 Premier or Statesman as everyday drivers and wreck them once rego ran out. So I had a lot of Devilles and Premiers. I tended to steer away from commercials or Holden/Belmont/Kingswood as they were often manual if fitted with a 308. I used to use them as tow cars, and favoured HJ's as they had the best engines and an unbreakable gearbox. The best of the manuals as tow cars were 253 3spd column shift as they always had a 3.08 rear axle (unless they were a cab-chassis) and reverse was good whereas M20 fitted cars were useless as reverse with a 3.08 rear axle was way too high geared and you just burned up clutches, not to mention the 4spd were far more breakage prone than a 3spd. The absolute best high speed cars or towing cars were those fitted with a 350 or 400 or 454 or similar with TH400 and a 2.78 or 2.6 rear axle. I had a HJ Kingswood ute like that, was a great long distance car, got written off in a head on though with a Renault.

The Holden 6 wasn't a poor man's car. The bread and butter Holden was a 186 and later 202 Kingwood sedan, they were the volume cars built for sale that suited the Australian buyers. Someone with a bit more $ forked out for a Premier but normally a 6cyl. For those that thought like we do but didn't want a coupe, they shelled for the top spec Holden (V8 Premier) or the sporty Holden (GTS sedan). They would have optioned a 308/5.0L or even bought a GTS350 sedan, however the (for want of a better word) smarter ones knew how expensive a GTS was to insure so they bought the V8 Kingswood or V8 Premier or optioned V8's in HJ-HZ. That is exactly what the original buyer of my HJ Premier did, he ticked every option he could other than dual exhaust and cloth inserts. It actually cost more than a 5.0L auto GTS however he would have recouped the cost with the first insurance premium.




As for your statement of 6cly 110KM/H Liar My dad had a HQ 173 manual and he would drive at 80MPH cruse speed doing 4hr drive I watched siting in the back behind him looking. and it would do 100MPH flat no valve bounce at all with 3.55 diff and my mums HR 186 auto 3.36 diff would do 97 MPH I seen this maybe a 100's times and her HJ 202 auto I do not know 150KM/H for sure but the stupid speedo in them would bounce about to much due to the stupid long setup speedo, just like the HK was the same, I could not truly tell because the bumps in the road made it inaccurate over from around 100mph. not to mention the Falcon speedos up to XY were spastic they would bounce about wildly way out of control like 40MPH or more because of the bumps.

Stock Red motor valve springs start to shimmy over 4700RPM say and they will valve bounce at 5000RPM.

My Falcon XG Longreach ute that I ordered with LSD was built at the latest 7 days before I got it and it was built in Vic it was made in the same month proven by the Comp plate.

My VY SS was the same month build as well that I ordered it June but got it in July a couple of days after I ordered it I think.

As far as the HZ GTS goes I would rather order a 5.0L Premier 4speed with optional GTS instruments 3.08 LSD and just get the dual exhaust on it myself, not to mention toss the std camshaft, block the EGR from entering the intake manifold totally and put stronger valve springs in it without lifting the heads. for as start, because I could not live with how gutless they were.


I didn't say a Holden 6 with a manual and 3.55 rear axle couldn't do 110, just it was revving way to high, more like 3500rpm - the valve bounce thing was a tongue in cheek statement! Of course they'll do more, but it was VERY rare for any standard Holden 6cyl car to exceed 100mph, it just didn't happen. Only cars that did it were 186S HK-HG, LC-LJ GTR, XU1 of course and some of the 3300 LJ could do it. Forget it for the rest in that era. GMH Engineering data shows a 3.55 rear axle with ER70H14 tyres doing 20.1mph per 1000rpm. 4700rpm is 94.5mph, poor old 173 or 202 was never going to do that. Their peak torque was at 2000rpm and the peak power at 4400rpm, and that was ideal conditions - stick them in a car with exhaust and an air cleaner, driving a mechanical fan - forget it!

That is exactly what I meant, you never "ordered" your VY SS. If you got it the same month you ordered it, it was already built or at least scheduled to be built. All the dealer did was picked it off the schedule or plant stock list and then got it allocated to that dealership. The timeframe I mentioned was about right, I ordered mine in December 2002 and it was delivered in May 2003. It was a proper Retail Order, not a sale off the schedule.

I'm with you, I would have ordered a HJ Premier or Deville, optioned it similarly. Back then you would have struggled to get a decent proven dual exhaust, they'd probably have been made for you to fit. Most of the aftermarket stuff sold back then was just OEM stuff made by the same company that made them for GMH, all they normally did was fitted proper 2" mufflers rather than the stepdown 1 7/8" that seem to have been factory fitted. I even bought a set of OEM dual tailpipes for my HJ Premier a few years back, made by Lukey I think - they look identical to the original pipes I have hanging in the shed, like they were made on the same machine.

Edited by user Thursday, 17 March 2022 1:30:38 PM(UTC)  | Reason: spelling

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Dr Terry Offline
#24 Posted : Thursday, 17 March 2022 1:36:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
but it was VERY rare for any standard Holden 6cyl car to exceed 100mph, it just didn't happen. Only cars that did it were 186S HK-HG, LC-LJ GTR, XU1 of course and some of the 3300 LJ could do it. Forget it for the rest in that era.


EH S4s did 102-104 mph down conrod in the 1963 Bathurst, pretty impressive given 13" wheels & a 3.55 rear axle.

Dr Terry
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castellan Offline
#25 Posted : Thursday, 17 March 2022 4:28:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I didn't work like that. Dealers were trained using a GMH training course to sell from stock. They didn't want you to order a car, they wanted to sell you firstly what they had in their own stock. Secondly sell you what was built but not yet allocated to a dealer. Thirdly, sell you off the production schedule. Lastly, place a retail order. Probably 90% of people who went to a dealer thinking they were placing an order were just being sold a car that either existed (as in belonged to Sales) or was in the schedule to be built (belonged to Production). The dealer would have asked what you wanted, as in do you want a 6cyl or a V8? What colour? Will see what we can get. I went through this exact process with my VY SS ute. I went in to order a white manual with black leather trim. They tried to sell me a red auto with standard trim really cheap as it was on the yard. Then tried cars other dealers or off the schedule. Then reluctantly placed a Retail order as it wasn't a car Holden built as a stock order. It took 5 months to get, and they were even less happy with the sale as it was a National Fleet order so it was at a big discount.

Its not just the 173 or 202 that made them "bad" by today's standards, as a driver's car. It is the rear axle ratio that came with them, at least on a Holden other than a tonner. 253 was 3.08 manual, 2.78 auto. 308 was 3.36 manual, 2.78 auto. Those rear axle ratios are fine for cruising and highway speeds although the 308 manual car with its 3.36 rear axle did tend to rev a bit much at highway speeds, although by the time I owned then in the 80's we used to run taller tyres like 245/60/14 which gave you a few more % taller tyre compared to say an E70H14. The 6cyl were not far off valve bouncing with the standard 3.55 with a manual doing 110km/h, they were not much fun. Something like a cab-chassis with a good cyl and Trimatic were OK if you changed the rear axle to 3.08. They weren't exactly fast but they were comfortable at highway speeds and the torque converter covered a lot for the taller rear axle in low speed work like reversing. I did have a 5.0L manual car with a 3.08 rear axle but it was horrible for towing or trying to reverse, best changed out for an auto.

I always used to buy 5.0L/308 Premier or Statesman as everyday drivers and wreck them once rego ran out. So I had a lot of Devilles and Premiers. I tended to steer away from commercials or Holden/Belmont/Kingswood as they were often manual if fitted with a 308. I used to use them as tow cars, and favoured HJ's as they had the best engines and an unbreakable gearbox. The best of the manuals as tow cars were 253 3spd column shift as they always had a 3.08 rear axle (unless they were a cab-chassis) and reverse was good whereas M20 fitted cars were useless as reverse with a 3.08 rear axle was way too high geared and you just burned up clutches, not to mention the 4spd were far more breakage prone than a 3spd. The absolute best high speed cars or towing cars were those fitted with a 350 or 400 or 454 or similar with TH400 and a 2.78 or 2.6 rear axle. I had a HJ Kingswood ute like that, was a great long distance car, got written off in a head on though with a Renault.

The Holden 6 wasn't a poor man's car. The bread and butter Holden was a 186 and later 202 Kingwood sedan, they were the volume cars built for sale that suited the Australian buyers. Someone with a bit more $ forked out for a Premier but normally a 6cyl. For those that thought like we do but didn't want a coupe, they shelled for the top spec Holden (V8 Premier) or the sporty Holden (GTS sedan). They would have optioned a 308/5.0L or even bought a GTS350 sedan, however the (for want of a better word) smarter ones knew how expensive a GTS was to insure so they bought the V8 Kingswood or V8 Premier or optioned V8's in HJ-HZ. That is exactly what the original buyer of my HJ Premier did, he ticked every option he could other than dual exhaust and cloth inserts. It actually cost more than a 5.0L auto GTS however he would have recouped the cost with the first insurance premium.




As for your statement of 6cly 110KM/H Liar My dad had a HQ 173 manual and he would drive at 80MPH cruse speed doing 4hr drive I watched siting in the back behind him looking. and it would do 100MPH flat no valve bounce at all with 3.55 diff and my mums HR 186 auto 3.36 diff would do 97 MPH I seen this maybe a 100's times and her HJ 202 auto I do not know 150KM/H for sure but the stupid speedo in them would bounce about to much due to the stupid long setup speedo, just like the HK was the same, I could not truly tell because the bumps in the road made it inaccurate over from around 100mph. not to mention the Falcon speedos up to XY were spastic they would bounce about wildly way out of control like 40MPH or more because of the bumps.

Stock Red motor valve springs start to shimmy over 4700RPM say and they will valve bounce at 5000RPM.

My Falcon XG Longreach ute that I ordered with LSD was built at the latest 7 days before I got it and it was built in Vic it was made in the same month proven by the Comp plate.

My VY SS was the same month build as well that I ordered it June but got it in July a couple of days after I ordered it I think.

As far as the HZ GTS goes I would rather order a 5.0L Premier 4speed with optional GTS instruments 3.08 LSD and just get the dual exhaust on it myself, not to mention toss the std camshaft, block the EGR from entering the intake manifold totally and put stronger valve springs in it without lifting the heads. for as start, because I could not live with how gutless they were.


I didn't say a Holden 6 with a manual and 3.55 rear axle couldn't do 110, just it was revving way to high, more like 3500rpm - the valve bounce thing was a tongue in cheek statement! Of course they'll do more, but it was VERY rare for any standard Holden 6cyl car to exceed 100mph, it just didn't happen. Only cars that did it were 186S HK-HG, LC-LJ GTR, XU1 of course and some of the 3300 LJ could do it. Forget it for the rest in that era. GMH Engineering data shows a 3.55 rear axle with ER70H14 tyres doing 20.1mph per 1000rpm. 4700rpm is 94.5mph, poor old 173 or 202 was never going to do that. Their peak torque was at 2000rpm and the peak power at 4400rpm, and that was ideal conditions - stick them in a car with exhaust and an air cleaner, driving a mechanical fan - forget it!

That is exactly what I meant, you never "ordered" your VY SS. If you got it the same month you ordered it, it was already built or at least scheduled to be built. All the dealer did was picked it off the schedule or plant stock list and then got it allocated to that dealership. The timeframe I mentioned was about right, I ordered mine in December 2002 and it was delivered in May 2003. It was a proper Retail Order, not a sale off the schedule.

I'm with you, I would have ordered a HJ Premier or Deville, optioned it similarly. Back then you would have struggled to get a decent proven dual exhaust, they'd probably have been made for you to fit. Most of the aftermarket stuff sold back then was just OEM stuff made by the same company that made them for GMH, all they normally did was fitted proper 2" mufflers rather than the stepdown 1 7/8" that seem to have been factory fitted. I even bought a set of OEM dual tailpipes for my HJ Premier a few years back, made by Lukey I think - they look identical to the original pipes I have hanging in the shed, like they were made on the same machine.


HK1837 Offline
#26 Posted : Thursday, 17 March 2022 6:26:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
but it was VERY rare for any standard Holden 6cyl car to exceed 100mph, it just didn't happen. Only cars that did it were 186S HK-HG, LC-LJ GTR, XU1 of course and some of the 3300 LJ could do it. Forget it for the rest in that era.


EH S4s did 102-104 mph down conrod in the 1963 Bathurst, pretty impressive given 13" wheels & a 3.55 rear axle.

Dr Terry


Yes its impressive, but it also isn't a standard car, and its a very light car with small frontal area with a blueprinted engine and Conrod is slightly downhill! Des West had his GTS327 in practice 1968 on Conrod clocking over 130mph with 185R14 tyres with a 3.36 rear axle - it was a blueprinted engine pulling 6500rpm. The same car when tested by RCN as a standard road car (prior to being blueprinted for Bathurst) maxxed out at 128.5mph at 6000rpm.
I doubt very much a road going S4 would pull 100mph on a flat road, might go close though as an LJ 3300 could do it and they are similarly sized, EH just a fraction bigger.

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Dr Terry Offline
#27 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 6:46:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post

Yes its impressive, but it also isn't a standard car, and its a very light car with small frontal area with a blueprinted engine and Conrod is slightly downhill! Des West had his GTS327 in practice 1968 on Conrod clocking over 130mph with 185R14 tyres with a 3.36 rear axle - it was a blueprinted engine pulling 6500rpm. The same car when tested by RCN as a standard road car (prior to being blueprinted for Bathurst) maxxed out at 128.5mph at 6000rpm.
I doubt very much a road going S4 would pull 100mph on a flat road, might go close though as an LJ 3300 could do it and they are similarly sized, EH just a fraction bigger.



The difference between the Des West 327 & any S4, is that the Des West car was custom blueprinted prior to the race, but all S4s were factory blueprinted. In other words they raced them as they left the factory door. IMHO they were "standard cars".

Dr Terry
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#28 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 7:19:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
but it was VERY rare for any standard Holden 6cyl car to exceed 100mph, it just didn't happen. Only cars that did it were 186S HK-HG, LC-LJ GTR, XU1 of course and some of the 3300 LJ could do it. Forget it for the rest in that era.


EH S4s did 102-104 mph down conrod in the 1963 Bathurst, pretty impressive given 13" wheels & a 3.55 rear axle.

Dr Terry


impressive !

my HD X2 manual sedan with 13s and a 3.55 rear end would do exactly (per the speedo) ... 100
just would not go faster and don't try to go faster for too long as the bloody thing would overheat
(as I found when I tried it a couple of times)

I can also report they do tend to wander a bit at 100 Anxious

Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
HK1837 Offline
#29 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 8:26:01 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post

Yes its impressive, but it also isn't a standard car, and its a very light car with small frontal area with a blueprinted engine and Conrod is slightly downhill! Des West had his GTS327 in practice 1968 on Conrod clocking over 130mph with 185R14 tyres with a 3.36 rear axle - it was a blueprinted engine pulling 6500rpm. The same car when tested by RCN as a standard road car (prior to being blueprinted for Bathurst) maxxed out at 128.5mph at 6000rpm.
I doubt very much a road going S4 would pull 100mph on a flat road, might go close though as an LJ 3300 could do it and they are similarly sized, EH just a fraction bigger.



The difference between the Des West 327 & any S4, is that the Des West car was custom blueprinted prior to the race, but all S4s were factory blueprinted. In other words they raced them as they left the factory door. IMHO they were "standard cars".

Dr Terry


Point taken. But its still a race car, in race trim on a race track, downhill.

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Dr Terry Offline
#30 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 9:03:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post

Yes its impressive, but it also isn't a standard car, and its a very light car with small frontal area with a blueprinted engine and Conrod is slightly downhill! Des West had his GTS327 in practice 1968 on Conrod clocking over 130mph with 185R14 tyres with a 3.36 rear axle - it was a blueprinted engine pulling 6500rpm. The same car when tested by RCN as a standard road car (prior to being blueprinted for Bathurst) maxxed out at 128.5mph at 6000rpm.
I doubt very much a road going S4 would pull 100mph on a flat road, might go close though as an LJ 3300 could do it and they are similarly sized, EH just a fraction bigger.



The difference between the Des West 327 & any S4, is that the Des West car was custom blueprinted prior to the race, but all S4s were factory blueprinted. In other words they raced them as they left the factory door. IMHO they were "standard cars".

Dr Terry


Point taken. But its still a race car, in race trim on a race track, downhill.



"Race trim" in 1963 would be remove the hubcaps, tape the headlight glass & fit a seat belt & fire extinguisher.

But yes, it was a race track, but not all downhill. I think before the chase was introduced, there were 2 uphill sections to conrod, where cars got a bit 'airbourne' as they peaked the hill.

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HK1837 Offline
#31 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 10:57:51 AM(UTC)
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Not necessarily, I doubt all cars were totally standard (like the Cortinas for example). The EH S4/S5 racing program was a factory race car program that was abandoned leaving privateers to race the cars. They definitely had certain performance improvements to be able to do 102-104mph, even if it was just very good in-house engine blueprinting.

I just found the specs for a HD, I don't have the EH's Engineering Tech specs.

A HD with 3.55 rear axle wearing 6.40-13 tyres did 49.93rpm per mph. Which to get 104mph means 5193rpm! There is no way a stock (as in not an S4 or S5) 179 is going to be able to do that and survive. I can see the X2 and 186S engines doing close to it, as they had better intake and bigger camshaft so breathed far better, and the 186S amd 2600S Holdens and Toranas showed as much.
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#32 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 2:02:48 PM(UTC)
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Look at the HQ racing 202 and how fast they are with only a single Stromberg carby, yes they have a good sort of camshaft grind and bigger valves.


Now can we make a EH 197 S4 engine by blueprinting it ? and make the stock valve springs not float at 5200rpm in top ? or did they improve the spring then ? If they retard the cam maybe they get it to rev more ?
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#33 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 2:45:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Not necessarily, I doubt all cars were totally standard (like the Cortinas for example). The EH S4/S5 racing program was a factory race car program that was abandoned leaving privateers to race the cars. They definitely had certain performance improvements to be able to do 102-104mph, even if it was just very good in-house engine blueprinting.


The S4/S5 program saw all 120 odd S4 engine go thru very precise in-house blueprinting. They would have access to a choice of valve springs etc. by maybe choosing the best sets out of a batch, they may have even machined the seats at a different height. They could choose the best head castings etc. etc.

Close inspection of known survivors has shown that a different type of head bolt was used & the front suspension had hand picked components to pick the best settings for castor/camber etc. 'within factory specs' of course.

The Cortina GTs were thrown together very quickly by Ford in record time before the race & many items such as leaving out sound proofing & adding extra spot welds have been noted.

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#34 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 2:59:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
but it was VERY rare for any standard Holden 6cyl car to exceed 100mph, it just didn't happen. Only cars that did it were 186S HK-HG, LC-LJ GTR, XU1 of course and some of the 3300 LJ could do it. Forget it for the rest in that era.


EH S4s did 102-104 mph down conrod in the 1963 Bathurst, pretty impressive given 13" wheels & a 3.55 rear axle.

Dr Terry


Yes its impressive, but it also isn't a standard car, and its a very light car with small frontal area with a blueprinted engine and Conrod is slightly downhill! Des West had his GTS327 in practice 1968 on Conrod clocking over 130mph with 185R14 tyres with a 3.36 rear axle - it was a blueprinted engine pulling 6500rpm. The same car when tested by RCN as a standard road car (prior to being blueprinted for Bathurst) maxxed out at 128.5mph at 6000rpm.
I doubt very much a road going S4 would pull 100mph on a flat road, might go close though as an LJ 3300 could do it and they are similarly sized, EH just a fraction bigger.



Can a stock valve spring V8 Chev of the time rev to 6500rpm ?

I have heard of the old Chev days in that they called such a spring, The Brown spring ? this so called Chevy Broun spring was put in Holden's that were better than the stock Holden spring, for your car to rev higher ? I would think they are something like an 186s spring or a Blue motor spring. I think a stock Blue 6 would rev to 6200rpm in a test I have of the first VC Commodores.

The claim that many of them Blue 6 cyl heads suffered valve recession, some claim that the casting was softer ? but the stronger the spring would or could be harsher on the seat ? I would think due to more pressure ? I think that the Black heads were better, why ? maybe casting metal changed somewhat to deal with that.

Ford in USA 1972 did flame harden the Heads of the Cleveland V8 due to unleaded fuel.

Not to mention the Australian Ford F 100 engines the 250,302,351 they have Valve seats fitted to the heads as they are called a Heavy Duty engines and have HD bearings and oil pumps.

Edited by user Friday, 18 March 2022 3:07:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#35 Posted : Friday, 18 March 2022 3:33:23 PM(UTC)
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I'd still be betting there was some cheating going on with those 1963 race S5's. You'd think they would have picked some better valve springs maybe?

A 4BBL 327 with a Quadrajet on it would rev to 6500rpm easily. How long it'd last is anyone's guess. But the engines blueprinted for series production certainly did. From memory it was Des West, Nick Petrilli and one of the HDRT cars that had a 3.36 rear axle. Petrilli crashed in practice. The West and Petrilli cars were the fastest in practice initially, they were revving them to 6500rpm rather than shifting earlier like the 3.08 forced them to do. Des West was quite clear on this, said he ran it to 6500rpm all day and was never headed. If you see footage and photos of the first part of the race (2 hours or so until the first pit stop) you see Des West disappear off into the distance chased by the HDRT car with a 3.36 rear axle. Bob Watson was quoted many times saying that the West car pulled away like it had a bigger engine - it was the perfect match of the 3.36 to the high revving 327.

I think you are talking about the LT1 valve springs, off the 1970-71 Z/28 engine. It was a 360hp (370hp in Corvette), solid cam, big 4BBL engine. It was that engine that the HT Old Man Emu was touted to get, with a Muncie, 12 bolt and oil cooled brakes.

I think it was the valve rotators in the blue engines that cause valve recession?
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#36 Posted : Saturday, 19 March 2022 8:14:36 AM(UTC)
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AFAIK no S5s ran at Bathurst in 1963, they were all S4s. Because of a dispute between the ARDC & GM-H over eligibility requirements, the pseudo factory team pulled out at the 11th hour & left it to the privateers & the Cortinas.

I remember the Des West HK very well, it was sponsored by Lorack Motors & was tuned/prepared by Burr & Daniels, a well known dyno shop in East Sydney during the 60s. It was also featured in a Modern Motor article, with the main talking point being how well it went with the 3.36 rear axle.

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#37 Posted : Saturday, 19 March 2022 12:03:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I'd still be betting there was some cheating going on with those 1963 race S5's. You'd think they would have picked some better valve springs maybe?

A 4BBL 327 with a Quadrajet on it would rev to 6500rpm easily. How long it'd last is anyone's guess. But the engines blueprinted for series production certainly did. From memory it was Des West, Nick Petrilli and one of the HDRT cars that had a 3.36 rear axle. Petrilli crashed in practice. The West and Petrilli cars were the fastest in practice initially, they were revving them to 6500rpm rather than shifting earlier like the 3.08 forced them to do. Des West was quite clear on this, said he ran it to 6500rpm all day and was never headed. If you see footage and photos of the first part of the race (2 hours or so until the first pit stop) you see Des West disappear off into the distance chased by the HDRT car with a 3.36 rear axle. Bob Watson was quoted many times saying that the West car pulled away like it had a bigger engine - it was the perfect match of the 3.36 to the high revving 327.

I think you are talking about the LT1 valve springs, off the 1970-71 Z/28 engine. It was a 360hp (370hp in Corvette), solid cam, big 4BBL engine. It was that engine that the HT Old Man Emu was touted to get, with a Muncie, 12 bolt and oil cooled brakes.

I think it was the valve rotators in the blue engines that cause valve recession?


A 327 Chev engine is a good setup to lend it's self to rev more than a 350 with the same camshaft, as we are talking about that is STD but one could look to the HP chart and see were the max HP is with the exhaust etc fitted to race etc is and then work out just how much HP is left to run to 6500. so max HP in such a 327 could not be past 4800RPM could it ?
Now I believe that at Bathurst the HK were to only run to 4500RPM in 1st, 2ed and 3rd max or you got a kick in the arse in fact. now top gear is fine to exceed that rev.
But revving a stock 327 past 4500 in the other gears will only slow lap times down and is stupid.
So how does the HP drop on the graph past 4800RPM ? I can not see 6500 in top gear being true at all with the stock camshaft. even if the cam was retarded 6 deg I still do not believe such. Not to mention compression could not be 8.75:1 no way ! not even a 302 Chev. such would need a bigger cam grind than std to have enough HP to push a 3.36 diff HK GTS to 6500 in top gear.
One would be looking at a max HP at 6500rpm to do that for sure.
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#38 Posted : Saturday, 19 March 2022 1:36:15 PM(UTC)
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The only way a stock GTS327 (with blueprinted engine) gets over 130mph is revving over 6000rpm, simple maths. A D70 x 14 with 3.36 rear axle is 21.2 mph/1000rpm, so that is 6132rpm at 130mph.
It was Des West who said the car at Bathurst revved out to 6500rpm easily and he used it. Rob Luck tested this exact car in the September 1968 Racing Car News magazine. The car was still off the shelf GMH just tuned on a chassis dyno at the Performance Centre. Des had even hurt the engine a fraction at I think Catalina Park, and it was reported that is wasn't quite on song. Rob Luck still had it freely spinning beyond 6000rpm including just pipping 6000rpm in top gear. He recorded 0-100mph in 19.8s, top speed of 128.5mph (which is 6090rpm) and a standing quarter of [email protected] And that was with an off-song engine. It was rebuilt for Bathurst, led the race from start to finish (apart from the random pit stop "overtakes" which saw Bruce McPhee in front after the first one and then a Ford in front for a short while after the Monaro's 3rd stop before the Ford blew up or had to pit) and was disqualified due to hidden reasons. Over-size valve stems was the official report - it had been rebuilt with reamed valve guides and a few thou over on the valve stems.

GMH quoted top speed as about 124.2mph mph at 5500rpm and that was with a 3.08 rear axle. 5500rpm was the redline on the 6cyl tacho. It was all part of the smoke and mirrors to keep the true potential of the car out of the press. At the release journalists had a GMH staffer in the car every drive and were told to stay below the redline.

You are right, a stock Chevrolet 327 as used in GTS327 wasn't 8.75:1. It was over 9:1. The Canadian 327 used in the later cars was about 8.5:1. Peak power is at 4800rpm and the curves stop at 5200rpm. It only drops off 2-3hp by 5200rpm.
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#39 Posted : Monday, 4 April 2022 7:51:14 AM(UTC)
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After reading my way through How common I was wondering if this body tag would indicate that its a Sandman?

Referencing (If its a standard V8 Belmont XX7 van I tell them exactly that - it is a bone stock HQ V8 Belmont Sandman van with no options. Sure its mechanical build configuration on the broadcast sheet would have been L32 M20 GV2 JL2 where a 6cyl Belmont van would read LD1 M15 G91. However the car is an 0270 (or 80270) model which means L32 GV2 and JL2 are standard along with M15. Having option code XX7 replaces M15 with M20 and that is why the BODY tag reads blank M20 blank as the 80270 model has been modified from standard to M20 by the application of the XX7 special vehicle package)



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#40 Posted : Monday, 4 April 2022 8:48:32 AM(UTC)
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You can't tell from that BODY ID tag. You can tell from the BODY ID tag tag if a HQ van isn't a Sandman but you can't tell if it is for certain. In normal circumstances I'd say I'd give it a 20% chance given the BODY number puts it as a July 1974 build. However being metallic increases its chances a lot as metallic paint was not available on HQ Belmont unless it was a Retail Order with a CTV applied - given only about 15% maximum HQ's were Retail order and on top of that its a Colour/Trim Variation if its not a Sandman thus drastically reducing its chances of being a V8 Belmont van optioned with M20. Unfortunately it is built after Elizabeth records ended so I can't look it up and see if it is a Stock order or Retail order. So the only way you would tell would be to inspect the body and then you really need to know what you are looking for.
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