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KBM Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, 18 June 2019 8:23:07 PM(UTC)
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I've just been told all HK gts 307's had Salisbury diffs from factory regardless of trans. Is this correct?
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#2 Posted : Tuesday, 18 June 2019 8:34:29 PM(UTC)
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No. Whomever told you that does not know their HK’s very well. I have a 5 litre auto HK GTS in my shed with LSD banjo and 5” rims, that was standard fare for HK GTS for early production. There is an amendment in the Engineering Technical specs in August 1968 when LSD Salisbury becomes standard in GTS when a V8 powertrain is optioned.
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HKTG Parts Recovery Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, 18 June 2019 10:12:24 PM(UTC)
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What month 68 is yours and Plant it was built? I’m curious to know if it has the sharp, unrolled lip on the top locking panel.
Coming soon....HT Belmont 80270, 253, Saginaw, Sports Dash, Pharoah Gold on Red
HK1837 Offline
#4 Posted : Wednesday, 19 June 2019 7:19:57 AM(UTC)
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Both the GTS and my GTS327 are Pagewood first week of July 1968. The 327 didn't have it (was not on it when I got it). I'll ask my mate about the GTS if it had the sharp one when he found it. It was in the 90's though, but the car was pretty much complete other then the engine being removed for a Jaguar SBC conversion. I also have an Acacia Ridge Monaro from the same timeframe, I'll have a look at what is on it next time I'm where the car is.

You may know of the engine from my GTS. It was sold by Lloyds in Melbourne at auction on a pallet within the last year, along with a bodgied up blue HK GTS with an imported 327, a 'glide and 10-bolt in it. The car had GTS plates from around Aug-Sep 68 plates but the body was a 1969 Monaro body. I'd have to go and look at the pictures again, but I think the plats and shell were both Pagewood. It was a nice looking car, just a mismatch of numbers.
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HKTG Parts Recovery on 19/06/2019(UTC)
bazza30555 Offline
#5 Posted : Friday, 21 June 2019 10:15:10 AM(UTC)
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If you were able to get someone to order you a 2:78 ratio you would have got the banjo, mine was made after the change date.
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#6 Posted : Friday, 21 June 2019 12:03:02 PM(UTC)
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There was no 2.78 Salisbury. Prior to the change the standard GTS diff with V8 was 2.78 LSD, and optional would be 3.08 LSD banjo or 3.36 LSD Salisbury plus possibly 3.08 LSD Salisbury as a HD option.
There is a note in the revision that 2.78 and 3.08 banjo both came with LSD as Borg Warner only made the one nodular banjo centre for GMH. It says once GMH start to build them then LSD will be optional on V8 banjo. However I don’t think this happened until HT. Remember this will all be tied up with the 253 as the 3.08 banjo was built for the 253, and the 253 was meant to be launched with Monaro and Brougham but was delayed until HT. My guess is the whole banjo as standard with V8 GTS is a hangover from the original intent to use the 253 in HK.
It is a shame my V8 HK GTS never had its original banjo when we found it as it would be nice to know if it was a 2.78 or a 3.08. The diff had a HT 3.08 Salisbury in it when we found it in the 90’s, it looked like it’d been there for ever, my guess is the banjo had been snotted in the early 70’s and changed. The banjo in it now came from a mint HK Brougham, and the pink tailshaft from a 253 4spd HG Kingswood sedan I rescued from a demolition derby competitor.

Just because your car is built later than July doesn’t mean it wasn’t scheduled prior to the change. After the change was made to the PTC’s making a 3.36 standard in a V8 HK GTS it will be very rare to find a banjo in a V8 GTS simply as maybe less than 1 in 10 were actually ordered - the bulk were stock order. So of those retail ordered, you have to have then actually chose a 2.78 banjo which my guess would equate to stuff all of them. One drive of a standard V8 auto HK (other than a GTS) probably convinced you otherwise very quickly!

Edited by user Friday, 21 June 2019 12:03:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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bazza30555 Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, 21 June 2019 2:10:31 PM(UTC)
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The steering box in mine is dated 12m8 so would that make it built after the change over.
HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Friday, 21 June 2019 4:51:02 PM(UTC)
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Yours must have been a retail order, or for some reason GMH built a few. There have been a few turn up over the years. Is it a Rally Wheel car or just stock 5" rims?

The HK Features Manual / Engineering docs had a supplement added on July 25 1968 for the 253 in HK so you can see how close they came to doing it. The 253 was to be available on all models bar GTS327 and Brougham as L32 or L33, and L33 as export on all models except GTS327. The standard rear axles in the documents for manual 253 (M15. M21 or M22) is actually 3.36. 3.08 is standard with 253 auto. October 25 1968 is when the amendment transmittal letter was issued to remove the 253 supplement.

The actual amendment for the 3.36 Salisbury becoming standard on GTS V8 is actually in June 1968 but it doesn't appear to happen until August as most cars would have been scheduled until then meaning parts procurement already underway.
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bazza30555 Offline
#9 Posted : Friday, 21 June 2019 5:43:34 PM(UTC)
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5"rims and no 6"wheel bracket or salisbury hump. 307 with original books. If l ever go to sell it l'll have all the experts telling me its a 6 cyl and some one has çhanged it to a v8 lol.
bazza30555 Offline
#10 Posted : Friday, 21 June 2019 6:04:40 PM(UTC)
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So the 307 Belmont, kingswood, premier, brougham and monaro all came std with the 2.78 banjo. Which would have been the rarest Hk made? Monaro 161 3spd or gts 307 glide and banjo.
HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Friday, 21 June 2019 7:31:18 PM(UTC)
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Rarest Monaro would be V8 manual or maybe a low comp 6cyl or a 6cyl with heavy duty 4spd. The 6cyl and M21 or M22 would probably be the rarest GTS too.

The was a large amount of V8 auto banjo Monaro made, a lot less as GTS though. I’m in the same boat as you with this GTS, if I ever go to sell it I’ll face the same stupidity. But mine will be an injected big cube engine, 9” etc so won’t matter as much.
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HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Saturday, 22 June 2019 7:45:33 AM(UTC)
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It didn't trigger the light bulb when I typed post 8 above - HK 253 manual with 3.36. That is unheard of as far as I know, GMH never used the 6cyl banjo ratios behind a V8 until it morphed into the small Salisbury in VB onwards. They always used the nodular centre 2.78 or 3.08. I bet that was to be changed to 3.08 like it was in HT. There must have been some V8 HK destined to have a 3.08 banjo as GMH used what appears to be re-assigned V8 banjo in 3.08 ratio only in HK fitted with 6cyl, M21 and 3.08 rear axle. They even made a special tailshaft for it (light grey), other ratios used the standard 6cyl banjo centre with the standard commercial 6cyl 4spd tailshaft (white).

I also just spotted that the pilot HK GTS's fitted with V8 were originally supposed to be M21 and G93 (3.08 banjo), but were all changed to M35 and G92 (2.78 banjo). I suspect the use of the G93 may be a hangover from them originally meant to be a 253 rather than a 307 though which makes the HK 253 supplement weird as it shows 3.36 behind 253 manual?

Edited by user Saturday, 22 June 2019 8:17:03 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Warren Turnbull Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, 24 June 2019 6:04:30 PM(UTC)
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There was also a special tail shaft for M20 with 3.08:1 rear axle. 3.08 only came with V8 yoke in HK but V8 and 6 cylinder in HT.

But on the original question, yes 2.78/3.08 Banjo in HK V8 GTS is far more common than people realise.

Warren
HK1837 Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, 24 June 2019 7:35:58 PM(UTC)
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Warren
Did you ever find a factory HK V8 auto with a G93 diff (3.08) either on a broadcast sheet or on a sales receipt? Or even of a very original car? There must have been some but I have never seen one. Seen heaps of 2.78 but no 3.08, not that is documented anyway.

Edited by user Tuesday, 25 June 2019 7:47:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Warren Turnbull Offline
#15 Posted : Tuesday, 25 June 2019 1:27:57 PM(UTC)
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Canmnot say I have ever seen a HK with 3.08 banjo, but was not looking at the cars that would have had it back in the day.
HK1837 Offline
#16 Posted : Tuesday, 25 June 2019 2:10:33 PM(UTC)
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The ones they used in 6cyl cars must have been already procured from Borg Warner for 253 HK and making those special tailshafts must have been the cheaper way to use them up. You’d think they’d throw a few into V8 auto Monaro as well to make use of them, or maybe they went into internal use V8 sedans, wagons, Brougham etc?
Come to think of it, my Woodsman green late June into early July Acacia Ridge Monaro was a 186, 3spd with LSD. It has a 307 in it and an Aussie 4spd, but I think it has a V8 banjo in it. It may well have been a 3.08 LSD. Will have to check.
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, 26 June 2019 9:15:31 AM(UTC)
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Was the 3.08 rear axle available right from the start or only after the Monaro release? If after Monaro release then your theory might be right.
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#18 Posted : Wednesday, 26 June 2019 9:38:42 AM(UTC)
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Will check the stuff I have. I recall a memo in Joe Teal’s records about a code change for one of the ratios and I think it was to do with 3.08. I’m pretty sure though that at least initially the only one available with V8 at HK release was 2.78 LSD.

Edit - I found what I was looking for. It was actually in a transmittal letter No.66 dated July 9, 1968 that accompanied amended pages for the Engineering Technical Specification. It specifically lists page 0-3, and says "power train combinations chart re-vised as indicated G94 was G93".

Now page 0-3 was revised June 1968, and on that page is shows 186S, 307 and 327. The two revised lines show a big dot next to them. The lines with dots are:

307 M35 - all except 80737, 81469 and 81837.
307 M35 - 80737.

G92+ (2.78 LSD) is standard for first line, with 2 x performance options shown: G93 (3.08 banjo) and G88 (3.36 LSD Salisbury).

G88 is standard for second line with G94 the ECON option.

So what the revision means is that this revision changed G93 (3.08 banjo) to G94 (3.08 LSD Salisbury) for GTS. Which means that these early HK V8 autos GTS's we see with banjos in them should really have been 3.08 banjo not 2.78 banjo. What they did was simply change the economy option from 3.08 banjo to 3.08 Salisbury for V8 auto GTS. Not sure what the first line means with 2 x PERF option rear axles, as G93 is still there with the other PERF option being G88. Doesn't make sense.

The + next to G92 is where it says only with LSD until GMH starts building them, but the + isn't next to 3.08 banjo....

This page also shows Brougham having the same PERF option rear axles as the others ie 3.08 banjo or 3.36 LSD Salisbury.

Edited by user Wednesday, 26 June 2019 7:04:50 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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HK1837 Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, 27 June 2019 9:43:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Was the 3.08 rear axle available right from the start or only after the Monaro release? If after Monaro release then your theory might be right.


The other possibility Warren could be as simple as Borg Warner only supplied the 2.78 and 3.08 banjo in one specification, and that is V8 uni and LSD. The facts are there in black and white that at least 2.78 was LSD only until GMH started making their own V8 banjo centres so the same may well have applied to the yokes?

I guess the follow on from this is the banjo centres used by AMI in Australian assembled Toyotas. Were these produced by GMH or are they straight from Borg Warner? What ratios in Toyota?

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