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Garry S Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, 14 July 2019 6:03:53 PM(UTC)
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Hi all I have a HQ sandman ute and from what i can work out that as little as 30-40 utes where produced.Is there another Holden production vehicle that has a lower build number?Comments-----
wbute Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, 14 July 2019 6:20:18 PM(UTC)
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Looks like there was only 49 VP Maloo utes. So if you include HSV then they are low numbers.
Not sure how we know HQ Sandman numbers though?
HK1837 Offline
#3 Posted : Sunday, 14 July 2019 6:49:22 PM(UTC)
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I think there were more HQ Sandman utes than that. But as a whole (as in all 0180, 0280, 0380 and 0480) they’d be close. If you broke it down to a particular engine size HJ LS 6cyl is low, and HQ Monaro with 350 is very low, as is HQ Statesman with 308 or 350. HJ B06 cab-chassis would be lucky to be 50-60 as well.
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wbute Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, 14 July 2019 7:16:38 PM(UTC)
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WB ute with L31 would be low as well.
HK1837 Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, 14 July 2019 9:39:42 PM(UTC)
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Yes they are low numbers, but will be more than you think. Certainly lots more than HQ Monaro 350 or HQ Ute 350. I have seen ID plates off 3 WB Ute/tonner with L31 and there has to be lots more.

Edited by user Sunday, 14 July 2019 9:41:07 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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bazza30555 Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, 14 July 2019 11:34:50 PM(UTC)
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HQ 350 wagon

HQ 350 kingswood sedan ( non gts )
commodorenut Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, 15 July 2019 6:58:43 AM(UTC)
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Definition is key here. What defines rarest?

Is it a special build, not available to the general public (dozens & dozens of 1s & 2s off).

Is it the combination of options that one could freely order? These are very hard to track, and taste is debatable on some of them.....

Is it a standard production model or production pack (like the Sandman mentioned above) that was readily available to the public, AND desirable, but simply didn't sell in big numbers?

You probably need to leave out the secondary manufacturers like HDT and HSV, as they had many low build numbers (especially in the Brock VL era).

Cheers,

Mick
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Dr Terry Offline
#8 Posted : Monday, 15 July 2019 7:42:45 AM(UTC)
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Yes, Mick is correct. Some option packs & special orders will be very low in numbers.

One that comes to mind is the VC SL/E wagon. About 30 I believe.

HK1837 has listed a few 'regular' production model which would be very low.

HJ 6-cyl LS & 308 or 350 HQ Statesman (non-Deville).

HK Kingswood V8 utes maybe ?

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HK1837 Offline
#9 Posted : Monday, 15 July 2019 11:12:30 AM(UTC)
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I reckon HK V8 Belmont Ute would be lower than V8 Kingswood Ute.

When B06 was first approved for HJ late in 1974 the justification was based upon 90 vehicles total per annum for 60 and 70 styles. So by the time they built them (early 1975) you’d be looking at maybe 130 total across HJ van and cab-chassis. The only one I ever saw that I know for certain was a HJ B06 was an L31 M41 HJ cab chassis I saw at a wreckers once. I never had a camera on my phone back then to grab a picture of the tags and cowl as it also had the HJ cowl for the HJ Premier nose, guards and bonnet. I don’t recall recording any other HJ B06 either. There are a few 5.0L auto cab chassis in the records though but I only ever see them by chance as you’d never find one by searching, 5.0L was B06 only on cab-chassis. Yet I have maybe minimum 25 HQ Sandman utes recorded of which 5 are guaranteed as they are Acacia Ridge black stripe (XX7 on tags). If I have that many there must be at least 10x that many made.

Edited by user Monday, 15 July 2019 11:13:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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commodorenut Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, 15 July 2019 6:10:23 PM(UTC)
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Speaking of tonners and BO6 packs, two things have always intrigued me about 1-tonners.

1. Why they persisted with the HQ front, when the ute/van commercial siblings were updated with the HJ front. Surely if it was about economics, then making low volumes of HQ panels just for the tonner doesn't make sense.
If it was to give the commercials a more utilitarian look - as the front bumper & "trailer" blinkers certainly did, then why not spread that same look across all commercials?

2. Why the B06 pack puts the HJ style Premier front onto the HQ-nosed HJ tonner.
I can understand the desire for better headlights, which the Premier front gave, but surely it would have been easier to put just a HQ Prem nose onto a standard HJ tonner?

Was there any particular reasoning for the HJ front - when the HQ front (less nose-cone) was still in production for the standard tonner anyway?
I understand the cowl is quite simple to swap when the body is being assembled & welded, but it's additional complexity for a relatively low volume.


Cheers,

Mick
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HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, 15 July 2019 7:18:55 PM(UTC)
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HQ Ute and Van were different to HQ cab-chassis, they ran the Belmont and Kingswood grilles, bars, badges etc. Same happened in HJ. Cab chassis also got more basic trim treatment. I think they didn’t bother doing much on the HJ cab-chassis, it was meant to be a truck. All it really got was the HJ dash. It wouldn’t have cost anything to keep pressing HQ front panels, cowl, grille and making the HQ front sheetmetal wiring harness.

When WB came around they did make the basic Ute and Van look more like the cab-chassis but it didn’t last long.

The B06 was meant to be a more upmarket cab-chassis or Van, primarily for Ambulance use. They got Premier door trims and armrests too.

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HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, 16 July 2019 10:13:45 AM(UTC)
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The other rare one I thought of was a WB B06 or a WB XU4. I think I have seen an XU4 somewhere, and I’m not sure how you pick a B06 from a standard one.
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, 16 July 2019 4:14:14 PM(UTC)
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Rare option lists are always going to win, as it was possible to order 10 times the cars that they produced and most are the same. So cars like the HK Belmont sedan with factory 4 speed opel and no other options would most likely be a one off. I can think of other possible one offs, that anyone could have ordered.

I doubt there would be two kingswood wagons like my dads HQ. He ordered it new, 253, column auto 3.55 LSD, super lift shocks, 6" rims, Sports dash and Black trim with black and Black rado.
HK1837 Offline
#14 Posted : Tuesday, 16 July 2019 5:03:52 PM(UTC)
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My HJ Premier would be similar Warren. But as a regular production vehicle as a whole a HQ XX7 utility would be fairly low. Maybe not as low as others like HJ B06 Van for example or even HQ XW8.
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#15 Posted : Tuesday, 16 July 2019 7:58:36 PM(UTC)
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67 VC SL/E Wagons would be up/down there.

VP V6 SS, Holden's last Bathurst special, 150 built

VH top 30

Lots of limited production, but also dealer ordered special would be another category:

Suttons GTS Panel van
Pattersons 50th anniversary HQ

Edited by user Tuesday, 16 July 2019 8:12:00 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

wbute Offline
#16 Posted : Tuesday, 16 July 2019 8:53:16 PM(UTC)
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How many Papaya VH Commodores did they build? They seem like a Central West thing or were they available in all areas? They were Papaya in colour, 253 and hot wire style wheels. Stripes up the side and Papaya lettering at the end of the stripe.

Edited by user Tuesday, 16 July 2019 8:55:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Warren Turnbull Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, 17 July 2019 9:33:32 AM(UTC)
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68/69 rego numbers are interesting for the V8 vans and utes.

Utes with 307 are 153 + 109 total 262
Vans with 307 are 31 + 15 = 46
Utes with 253 = 262
Utes with 308 = 19
Vans with 253 = 49
Vans with 308 = 8

When you look at these figures and say compare to known cars and then compare to later HQ to HZ, the HQ to HZ are much more popular.
HK1837 Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, 17 July 2019 10:56:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
68/69 rego numbers are interesting for the V8 vans and utes.

Utes with 307 are 153 + 109 total 262
Vans with 307 are 31 + 15 = 46
Utes with 253 = 262
Utes with 308 = 19
Vans with 253 = 49
Vans with 308 = 8

When you look at these figures and say compare to known cars and then compare to later HQ to HZ, the HQ to HZ are much more popular.


Not many at all Warren. My guess is most of them at that stage were Retail Order with very few as Stock Order. Possibly HT utility with 253 may have been built in limited quantity as Stock Order, especially Kingswood ute as 253 3spd with possibly a few 307 auto also in case a customer wanted a V8 automatic HT Kingswood ute but didn't want to wait for a Retail Order. Maybe GMH were a bit gun-shy after building bulk quantities of V8 HK Monaro and HK Brougham and struggling to sell them? I can understand very few 308 in that list as it would only have been available for a short time in 1969.
By the time they were into HQ the use of V8 started to grow a lot as you say but even then at the start, when you look at the Elizabeth body plant that listed build number as the body number, V8 van build was very slow compared to most everything else V8, remembering that at that stage all Pagewood, Mosman Park and Dandenong vans were also Elizabeth bodies and counted in that xxx-A. I think it really started to accelerate though by mid 1972 when GMH started the Sandman ute process and they built the two prototypes (ute and van) in December 1972. They could obviously see a market for the Sandman by that stage, and Leo had styled the GTS ute around the same time in mid 1972. BUT they continued to build 6cyl Sandmans for a few years as I guess by that stage V8's were still not seen as the biggest appeal. I guess GMH knew themselves they needed to change people's minds about V8's in general, they showed that hand with the White Hot HT's. Yet by what I have recorded 6cyl Sandmans by the time they were released in 1974 were not popular at all, to the point GMH knew they couldn't sell them by HX and made them by order only. When you look at a lot of the 6cyl Sandmans built for the release many look to have sat for a fair while before being actually sold - people wanted the V8 ones. And the amount of V8 (especially 4spd) HQ utes and vans built in 1973 and early 1974 back this up too.

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Warren Turnbull Offline
#19 Posted : Wednesday, 17 July 2019 1:08:17 PM(UTC)
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These are not build numbers these are registered numbered, so either demonstrators or sold.

Interesting how many 308s were registered in 1969 considering how long it was available in a ute/van.

As for ratio, utes in 1968 were 8670 were 161, 5631 were 186, so 153 is a small percentage (1.07%) while vans were only 0.53%. While sedan was 11.7% and wagon was 5.1%. Sedan does include Monaro.

Edited by user Wednesday, 17 July 2019 1:18:54 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#20 Posted : Wednesday, 17 July 2019 1:33:52 PM(UTC)
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Most V8 commercials would be Retail order though and sold pretty quickly after build, so they’ll be pretty close to production numbers.
My guess is the 308’s are mostly manuals, as that was a new thing when 308 was released across HT, prior to that 5litre (307) was auto only. Could have also been a few people hanging out for a bigger (than 253) manual HT commercial, and ordered them as soon as they were available. I have the paperwork somewhere that gives a date where you could order 308 in HT other than Brougham.
One of the guys that used to own Pit Crew in Newcastle told me he ordered a HT V8 auto GTS expecting a 307 and was delivered a 308 without warning.
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