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HGV8 Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, 8 January 2020 5:34:52 PM(UTC)
HGV8

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Interesting HG GTS 186S for sale on eBay..
Advertised as factory fitted with a Saginaw
4 speed
and 10 bolt LSD.
Fascinating if it turns out to be the real deal.
What’s your thoughts?
https://www.ebay.com.au/...b0551:g:efgAAOSwYS5d-Gwh
j.williams
HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, 8 January 2020 5:38:58 PM(UTC)
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Impossible to be Salisbury unless it is some sort of internal special. M21 or M22 was easily orderable behind 6cyl but not in HG afaik.
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HGV8 Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, 8 January 2020 5:46:38 PM(UTC)
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Looking at the pics, it appears to have the
Saginaw tunnel hump.
j.williams
HK1837 Offline
#4 Posted : Wednesday, 8 January 2020 5:58:56 PM(UTC)
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When I saw it a few weeks ago it screamed rebody to me if it really does have a 10-bolt hump in it, which would also bring the M21/M22 into question. If it also has wide wheel brackets and holes for radius rods then there is the answer.

But it could be an original HG GTS optioned with heavy duty 4spd. As I said though IIRC the order procedure for HG doesn't show this as a possible option (will check again when I get a chance). If the VID Cert is still in the books it may show GMH as the original owner which may answer a few questions.

Edited by user Wednesday, 8 January 2020 6:07:52 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
HGV8 Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, 8 January 2020 6:16:42 PM(UTC)
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Could be though it does have an original
Survivor look about it and books.
If a rebody using a V8 shell, wouldn’t
you put a V8 into it after going through all
that trouble.
j.williams
HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Wednesday, 8 January 2020 6:50:43 PM(UTC)
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Maybe they used a good V8 shell to repair a rusty 6cyl? But you’d want to look all over it and decide for yourself. As I said it may well be a 6cyl M21/M22 and someone has put a Salisbury in it at some stage. My HK 5L GTS had a HT 3.08 Salisbury put in it very early on, had been there so long it looked original when we found the car in the 90’s. Probably busted the banjo in the first year or so, or they hated it if it was a 2.78. You could easily have busted a banjo in a HG GTS if it had a HD 4spd as you wouldn’t have the Opel shear pin there to protect the banjo. The other possibility is they wanted a 3.08 LSD. Rather bothering to change out the housing for the V8 banjo centre, paid for an expensive V8 LSD banjo centre (these were expensive even in the later 70’s and early 80’s as they got broken by V8 HK-HG and Torana) and paying to get the 6cyl yoke put on to replace the V8 one, they bought a whole Salisbury and bolted it in. Would be interesting to see what tailshaft is in it, the 308/M21/salisbury tailshaft should go close to fitting.
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HK1837 Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, 8 January 2020 7:00:35 PM(UTC)
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Probably doesn’t mean much but it has a manual choke knob. Would be an interesting car to crawl all over.
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HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, 9 January 2020 9:16:07 AM(UTC)
HK1837

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I just looked at some documents.

HG Features Manual dated Feb 1970 with some revisions Sept 1970 (nothing to do with 186S) shows that the only transmissions on HG GTS are:

STD - M20.
OPT - M40 (RHD only).
OPT - M35 (LHD only).

Rear axle ratios are:

G95 (3.36 banjo) with M20.
ECON option G93 (3.08 banjo). M20 only
PERF option G91 (3.55 banjo).

There is no line there for M21 or M22 transmissions even for the commercials, and there is no deletion (on Features Manuals when something is deleted there is usually a blank line).

There is nothing there for G94 (3.08 LSD Salisbury) or G88 (3.36 LSD Salisbury) against any 6cyl engines. The only place either of these rear axles are shown as used is behind 308 and 350.

The HG ordering procedures and order forms dated Sept '70 (passenger) and August '70 (commercial) both show only M21 (no M22 anymore) and only available behind V8 on commercials, mandatory with A50 (or XS6 in passenger)(buckets) and also in passenger M11 (console shift). The commercial order procedure specifically says M21 N/A on 6cyl, but the passenger procedure or order form doesn't. So by the actual order form you could get a 6cyl and M21, but not on Belmont regardless of the engine.

HT features manual is almost the same as HG but doesn't have Trimatic or mention of LD or RD (due to no Trimatic). What is different though is M22 is there as an option on all 6cyl except 138LC and 161LC exports. However it is ONLY listed for commercials, no passenger. And there is another rear axle available (and only on a commercial with M22) and that is G90 (3.90) - listed as SO (special order).

HK Engineering Technical Specs (called features manual after HK) shows again no salisbury available behind any 6cyl. However the M21 and M22 are wider spread:

M22 - optional with just about every 6cyl engine on commercials other than the two export engines like HT. 3.55 standard, 3.36 ECON option and the same SO 3.90:1 available.
M21 - optional behind L20 (186HC) wherever you could option 186 other than commercials. STD rear axle 3.36. 3.08 ECON, 3.55 PERF. Also optional behind L66 (186S) but only on HK commercials and HK GTS. STD rear axle 3.55 with this combination, with 3.36 as the ECON option.

That is it for 6cyl and M21 or M22. Again though GMH may have done some funny stuff to internal cars to get rid of remaining stuff out of Engineering or whatever parts were used for. I highly doubt and 6cyl got a Salisbury though - it wasn't even available behind a 253.

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Warren Turnbull Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, 9 January 2020 10:00:23 AM(UTC)
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The car looks to me like a restoration was done on it late last century. There are quite a few little touches that indicate 80s/90s resto.

Back then a 10 bolt and saginaw would have been reasonably priced to replace the opel and banjo. Probably came straight out of a 308 or 350 GTS. If you think about what was happening back then, a comon conversion on a V8 GTS was toploader and 9", so if the owner at the time knew someone doing a Ford conversion on their GTS 350 this would have been a great opportunity to fit all the good gear to a 6 cylinder GTS. Even saginaw humps were easy to source back then, or you can do like we did to my brother's HJ when we fitted a saginaw, a sledge hammer makes a great hump to clear linkages.

A quick check of the fuel tank will be the give away, as many conversions like this did not do the Salisbury hump.

HK1837 Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, 9 January 2020 6:36:00 PM(UTC)
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Warren is right, parts like this were cheap back then. Even 10-15 years ago some was unwanted. I bought a 253 M21 HG Kingswood sedan probably 10 years ago for $250, rescued it from demo derby duty. Cut it up and kept the mechanicals. I still have the tunnel and part of the floor to repair one of my V8 manual bodies as it was butchered. I used to run wanted ads in the local paper which is how this one found me. I was offered a few V8 4spd cars back then all cheap.
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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