Until HJ GMH didn't have a gearbox for the 308 that fitted within their Engineering guidelines for the power (engine) vs load (kg), hence the 308 wasn't optional in a cab-chassis in HQ. You couldn't even get a 253 in a tonner until eaerly 1973. They made the 308 an option on cab-chassis but only with BO6 as the TH400 was strong enough. BO6 was called an Ambulance pack but anyone could buy one, it was never intended that they'd all be ambulances.

I tried the same thing with Ford, I tried to buy a 1-tonne cab-chassis with turbo auto and no play. Also tried to buy an XR6T auto with the 3/4 tonne suspension, and I was going to turf the tub. Again no play.

There was no V8 M22. And none of the Aussie 3/4spds or the trimatic were rated high enough to handle the GVW of a tonner and the torque of a 308. Once a piece of drivetrain reached its torque/weight limit it couldn't be used. This will be why the trimatic was replaced behind revised 308 in a Holden or Statesman post HQ, the new 308 would have seen the Engineered capacity of the trimatic exceeded.

I wanted an auto Falcon so I could tow 2300kg, but the stock XR6 rear suspension is not up to towing 2300kg (although Ford allow it). Once you get 230kg on the towbar and 2 x passengers you are either exceeding or close to exceeding the load capacity of the vehicle with the stock suspension.

quote:

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Originally posted by HK1837
There was no V8 M22. And none of the Aussie 3/4spds or the trimatic were rated high enough to handle the GVW of a tonner and the torque of a 308. Once a piece of drivetrain reached its torque/weight limit it couldn't be used. This will be why the trimatic was replaced behind revised 308 in a Holden or Statesman post HQ, the new 308 would have seen the Engineered capacity of the trimatic exceeded.

I wanted an auto Falcon so I could tow 2300kg, but the stock XR6 rear suspension is not up to towing 2300kg (although Ford allow it). Once you get 230kg on the towbar and 2 x passengers you are either exceeding or close to exceeding the load capacity of the vehicle with the stock suspension.

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The good old trimatic was behind the later WB Statesman and VH-K-L Commodore 5.0L
M20 Aussie box are in 6 cly and 253 V8 std
M21 Aussie box is a std 308
M22 Aussie box is std 1 tonne box, what did they use with the 253 ?

I would say that anything you tow should not exceed the weight of your car regardless of any claim. A mate bought the Falcon 1 tonne with an auto in it due to Fords claim you can tow more with the auto, the Falcon manual box must be weak then, but the V8 and Turbo box can't be that weak now can it ?


Moved to another thread - HK1837

I doubt it would be one of the cars sent to Australia from Germany, as discussions with Leo over the years reviewed that the Commodore was completely redesigned here as the test mules simply fell part.

The Australian built prototypes may well have used a lot of the bit sent over in those original Opels, which would explain the German writing.

When you look at development times etc a couple of years before release is not much time for a motor car. When I have had the opertunityy to talk to design staff in the past, they have commented about when people talk to them about the new Holden they see it as old as they have normally been working on the next Holden for some time.

Warren

Ok interesting Sunday morning!
I've just had word from Chris Emmerson via email and i have organized to talk with him on the phone at 11am.
He did confirm some information in his email:

Quote:

"What you have there is the forerunner of the VB commodore that was later used as the prototype VC Shadow tone car".

Words in writting (email) from Chris Emmerson himself the actual designer and now absolute undeniable proof of history and provinance as the VB Foruner (prototype) and the VC Shadow tone prototype.
Now I can find out the rest of the cars history at 11am, will hopefully be able to fill in a lot of missing gaps.

Thanks to everyone that helped out and didn't shoot me down and say im an idiot to think this car was the VC Shadow tone prototype car.
That now leaves a big dent in the other forum members story that the car went to Pattersons.
I will definitely be asking Chris about this.

Keep you posted!

Edited by user Wednesday, 24 December 2014 4:04:44 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

...double post.....

I just had a very interesting hour long conversation with Chris Emmerson, the designer of the VC SLE Shadowtone prototype.
Chris has offered me some of his original sketches of the VB VC commodore and invited me to his home in country Vic.
Where do i start. ... First there has been a lot of untrue stories and rumors about me and my car on another forum. Yes, I got upset when a guy insulted and name called me on a public forum and that forum then basically called me a liar and an idiot for all to see. I apologize for my behavior, it too was most appalling and I lowered myself to their standard and got my back up but I just don't like to be ridiculed and made to be a liar. I am NOT.
Now as i have said, i have all this from Chris Emmerson himself, you can take it or leave it but i will be going to see Chris and he said he will be signing my car as the designer and he will be staying in contact via email in the interim with as much information as he can remember.
This is how Chris told it to me:
Chris came to Melbourne from Qld in 1968 and started working as a designer for GMH. Worked for GMH from 1968- 1981.
My car was the first Australian VB prototype body and did not have any id tags fitted or chassis number stamped into the body when first assembled.
I believe i have strong evidence to back up my theory that this car was originally registered prior to 1980. Possibly has remains from one of the three prototype cars sent from Germany and was modified " built " into the first Australian VB. Evidence i have found on the car points to it having had possible VC front structural panels welded on to it, i presume during the mid 1979 VC build.
I have obtained further information from Vic roads and now have evidence to back this claim up, the car was definately registered prior to 1980, not first registered in 1980 as i was lead to believe. This would also explain how Leo Pruneou was able to use it as his personal transport from mid 79-80. Vic roads have sent me out earlier registration documents from the Vic roads archives which say it was first registered as AC#-### at least two years prior to its June 1980 re-registration. I believe it was given a full re-build after its testing days with new body panels etc and re-painted in early 1979 before it was given to Chris Emmerson to design the VC SLE Shadowtone and was a GMH internal car and kept at Fishermans Bend Port Melb in the Styling and design studios from 1978 through to 1979. Vic roads papers also show it to have a 5 litre and manual at one point prior to 1979.
Chris said it was always at GMH Port Melb in the Design and Styling studios between 1978- 1979 and then used by Leo and later stored in the outside yard prior to mid 1980.
It was a running car when allocated to Chris during the VC SLE styling period early to May 1979, i asked Chris if he was sure about this, he said "Oh yes" it was a running car and was originally painted in the "woodshop" next door to the Design Studio where it was kept.Yes, the woodshop, where they had a small spray booth set up. Chris said it was the only complete VB in the Studio at that time and recalls it was originally all over black with NO tags when he started work on it and it became the only Black and Silver painted car at that time and had build and compliance plates fitted in May 1979 to represent what it was at that time, that was two years after the car was actually manufactured. Chris used the words "Forerunner to the VB" on numerous occasions, which I believe in layman's terms to be " pre VB production or simply prototype" Correct me if I'm wrong. I have spoken to Chris again and asked him if he knew of the car prior to 1978- 79 and he said he didnt but was told by Management it was the first Prototype VB and thats why he refers to it as the VB forerunner.
Chris said management allocated him the car as they wanted the VC SLE to be something more than what the VB SLE was, when they saw the shadowtone car after Chris had finished it they said to him "We love it". Chris also designed the Red and Blue pinstripes that were manufactured by Calta Brands of S.A. and he also applied the stripping.
Chris also designed a four round headlight front which he ssid he will give me sketches of.
Interior Design which was next door to the Torana Studio designed the VC style interior.
Leo Pruneu was the boss of Styling and Chris and Leo got on quite well.
Chris also recalls the GTRX and worked on it and drove it at Lang Lang, it was white and later painted silver and SLE wheels were fitted.
This is where it gets interesting, on another forum i was laughed at and told the VC prototype was not my car because that car was a pre build that went to Pattersons, that is RUBBISH!
Chris Emmerson has told me and i will quote "Your car was the only prototype in the Design and Styling studio at that time May 1979" "Your car was used as the VC prototype Shadowtone car and was allocated by management and was originally the forerunner of the VB commodore, "PROTOTYPE". It was the car shown to management and the car that was photographed and did NOT go to Pattersons but went to Balmoral as a dealer display around March or April 1980. Any other car that peolpe are talking about would have been part of a batch done very late 1979 to show dealers, your car is NOT one of those as they were pre production. Balmoral later had the car Road worthied and registered when it was sold.
It gets even more interesting now because i have heard people on the other forum say how they spoke to Leo at car shows and he says they made a batch of them and no prototype, again RUBBISH! There was a handfull only in late 1979 and there was one prototype in the Studios, my car.
This is the really interesting part and a little confusing but this is how Chris said it:
I asked, What was my car doing sitting around up until early 1980 and where was it stored at GMH? Chris said quote: "Leo took it". I said what do you mean? He said "It was Leo's". He couldn't tell me how he was able to drive it as it was supposedly unregistered and he can't remember if it had rego plates but Leo Pruneau was using it from around the time it was finished mid 1979. Chris said it was sitting in the outside storage yard with a bunch of other oddball cars like a Buick, Corvette etc when he saw it up close again early 1980. Vic rego archives show the car as a 5th month 1977 build with 5th month 1979 compliance plates and first registered on 6th month 1980 as a 1980 commodore, how could this be and how was Leo Pruneau driving it around with no rego? I believe it was registered but with the original Engine number only, NO Vin or Chassis number. Chris doesn't know how it was registered as a 1980 commodore because Balmoral organised the registration and purchase was organised through GMH management in June 1980 and as Holden dealer Balmoral motors had the car they were used to organise the RWC and registration.
This is all out of Chris's mouth. Take it or leave it , I'm not here to argue or get my back up anymore, I have nothing more to prove as i have it all from the guy that worked on its mouth and he has offered to email me everything so I have it in writing so to speak and give me the original sketches and sign the car Chris Emmerson VC SLE designer.

That's about all i want to say about the car right now and Chris right now.
Again, I'm not here to argue, you can take it or leave it or just wait till i work out how to post photos and then make your mind up.
One thing is for certain, the car is the first Australian VB prototype body assembled and its the one and only VC SLE Styling Prototype.
I will update this thread as new information comes to light or if information posted is found to be inaccurate.

A Merry Christmas to all.

Edited by user Tuesday, 30 December 2014 1:34:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

My 1997 VT Prototype GTS is well known on forums and there are photos of it at Sandown raceway three months ago and numerous other photos.
Nothing to hide there.
No financial gain, I paid 20, 000 big ones for it now you tell me how i got it for nothing.
See that's what i mean, all talk and innuendo.
That's why i don't want certain people at my place.
Seriously tell me how im in it for financial gain?
I love the history behind these cars and I'm one person who goes above and beyond to prove a cars provenance and i dont give up on missing information until i find it or get confirmation from a person who was there or has the answers.
I traced back and have personally spoken to all but one of the GTS prototype previous owners. And the guy that bought it off the guy John Harvey sold it to said and confirmed everything again. It was the first HSV VT prototype and it was never supposed to be sold. But John Harvey offered it to his mate and the car was saved.
Phil Duncan who you might know of in the racing world told me that and he was the second owner of it.
He even confirmed it has VN Group A heads and was stamped by HRT on the engine block. He even sent me the original compendium which was never passed on to the guy he sold it to. Phil knows im no mug, I thank you Phil and your son for looking after me.

Cheers, Damo.

Edited by user Monday, 22 December 2014 1:24:10 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Firstly,

Leo is a great man with lots of information, however as I stated earlier, the styling department are working years in advance of production and sometimes when you talk to Leo he gets the times mixed up. You really need to know your stuff when talking to him. It would be quite possible for those who spoke to Leo about your car to have been given some information, and from this come to a conclusion that was not quite right.

Compliance date is the date the engine goes in and this date should be on the compliance plate on the car.

The car may have been registered at one stage and then unregistered and sold that way. I have documentation on some cars that are sold to dealers as unregisterd and even unregisterable.

Would love to see pics of all the plates and the car.

Warren