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307chev Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, 4 June 2016 5:08:59 PM(UTC)
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Dr Terry Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, 4 June 2016 6:05:24 PM(UTC)
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This car is NOT a 'Bathurst Monaro' !

Firstly Holden never called the HK 327 a Bathurst anything, this is a latter day naming phenomenon. Having said that, even if we pretend to call the initial batches of HK 327s with their 'Type 1' engines, a 'Bathurst Monaro' because a car of this exact spec did indeed win the 1968 Bathurst 500, cars with the 'Type 2' engine are a different spec.

This car, with it's 1969 Ermine White paint job& Type 2 engine is of a spec that didn't race at Bathurst, so how is it a 'Bathurst Monaro'.

This might seen to be nitpicking to some, but not to many others.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Sunday, 5 June 2016 9:02:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
307chev Offline
#3 Posted : Saturday, 4 June 2016 6:59:50 PM(UTC)
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Yes I agree, but the phrase Bathurst Monaro was coined long ago
So Bathurst Monaro it is !

Nothing wrong with paying homage to the great race and acknowledging the Monaros success there
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#4 Posted : Saturday, 4 June 2016 7:13:17 PM(UTC)
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It certainly isn't nitpicking to me, but I guess you knew that already.
Judging by the number of photos showing the fuel tank, the covers, spare wheel brackets etc. someone is keen to demonstrate that this car is the right thing. Maybe this forum does get read widely.

Just because an incorrect expression has been around for a long time doesn't mean it needs to continue.

What then of the poor old HG GTS350? Is it "Bathurst" too?

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#5 Posted : Sunday, 5 June 2016 1:07:47 PM(UTC)
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...back when I was a young bloke in the mid 1970's the expression "Bathurst Monaro" was reserved for a race spec Monaro as averse to a road going example...maybe taking the hubcaps off made it a Bathurst model lol !

....were there any tweaks allowed for any reasons in 1968-69 ? (safety, fuel type, etc.)

Edited by user Sunday, 5 June 2016 1:19:01 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

307chev Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, 5 June 2016 6:57:41 PM(UTC)
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Dr Terry
How can you tell it's a type two? Casting number is 3932386 -do type 1 have a different casting number?
He's put the engine numbers up now 32776316 K0609H
To me this looks like better value than the blue one that went for 107k a few weeks ago
Dr Terry Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, 5 June 2016 8:21:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 307chev Go to Quoted Post
Dr Terry
How can you tell it's a type two?


To my knowledge the 2 extra GTS colours (Ermine White & Inca Gold Metallic weren't introduced until 1969, well after the changeover to the Type 2 engine.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Silverfox Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, 5 June 2016 9:56:42 PM(UTC)
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I know...I know. Terry is correct. The same dialogue is had on the other side. i.e Referring to XW Windsor engine GTHO and XW Cleveland engine GTHO. Ford never called them Phase anything.... but these days are widely known as Phase one and Phase two. Howard Marsden ,I understand, was credited with creating the words Phase Three referring to the XYGTHO and FoMoCo did officially use the term.

I reckon it is OK to allow a bit of liberty when referring to historic and iconic models.

To just about anyone with an interest in Aussie muscle ( and most Aussies without) referring to a Phase one, Phase two or Bathurst Monaro puts a correct picture in one's mind even if it is incorrect.

My 20 cents worth.

Cheers
Nick.

Edited by user Sunday, 5 June 2016 9:57:31 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"HOLDEN MONARO. OUT TO DRIVE YOU WILD!"
HK1837 Offline
#9 Posted : Monday, 6 June 2016 6:52:50 AM(UTC)
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"Series 2" HK is worse again!
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Dr Terry Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, 6 June 2016 6:58:44 AM(UTC)
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Nick.

I'll have to disagree on one point regarding the Falcon GT-HOs.

Ford did indeed refer to the the 1970 Cleveland HO as Phase II. I have a factory workshop manual with that title. I'm sure if you google the web that you would find a pic.

The Phase III workshop manual is also titled appropriately.

You are correct about the Phase I however. It was nicknamed retrospectively as being the HO before the Phase II, so i suppose Phase I fits. The term Windsor HO is probably more politically correct, but that really would be nitpicking.

A bit like the term FX I guess.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Monday, 6 June 2016 7:43:33 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Dr Terry Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, 6 June 2016 7:46:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
"Series 2" HK is worse again!


Hear hear !!

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Monday, 6 June 2016 8:47:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 307chev Go to Quoted Post
Dr Terry
How can you tell it's a type two? Casting number is 3932386 -do type 1 have a different casting number?
He's put the engine numbers up now 32776316 K0609H
To me this looks like better value than the blue one that went for 107k a few weeks ago


On the surface you'd say a Canadian 327ci V8 in a HK makes it a type 2 engine, with the 327 SBC defining a type 1. GMH published the breakpoints for type 1 to type 2 transition. In reality it doesn't work that way though - for probably a dozen to as much as 20 GTS327's from each assembly plant there were Canadian V8's in them not traditional US 327 SBC's as you'd expect - just those cars didn't have all the published type 2 parts - they had a mixture of early and late bits, some hand-made or modified to fit (radiator shrouds for one example). Once all the new bits were fitted then the breakpoint numbers are appropriate. Imagine trying to concours resto one of those orphan cars, and then judge them!

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Dr Terry Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, 6 June 2016 9:42:23 AM(UTC)
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OK, point taken. So you're saying that differentiating Type 1 from Type 2 engines isn't as simple as relying on the alternator mount position & water pump style.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
HK1837 Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, 6 June 2016 10:20:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
OK, point taken. So you're saying that differentiating Type 1 from Type 2 engines isn't as simple as relying on the alternator mount position & water pump style.

Dr Terry


It depends on what you regard type 1 and type 2 as. If you go off GMH's published breakpoints then no as there are then "type 1 cars" with Canadian engines. If you go by the engine being Canadian as designating a type 2 then yes the alternator, water pump, LH exhaust manifold, heads, intake manifold, block, even the engine number gives it up. However these "transition" cars don't have all the bits external to the engine as per GMH's published documents. Some of these have 7027213 carbs, earlier radiators, earlier should (modified) etc. From memory some even had hand-made alternator top brackets, not the pressed steel one you normally see.

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307chev Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, 6 June 2016 12:58:23 PM(UTC)
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Wow so maybe the ones with handmade parts are type 3? Ha
HK1837 Offline
#16 Posted : Monday, 6 June 2016 5:13:39 PM(UTC)
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Anyone notice that this car has attempted to be put back to as-original too?

Has a straight down RH side exhaust manifold - not sure how they've got this to fit!
Has an early type intake with front filler tube hole blocked off.

It has a hand fabricated alternator brace as discussed above.
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Silverfox Offline
#17 Posted : Monday, 16 January 2017 9:12:46 PM(UTC)
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Hello Terry. I will take back the Ph2 reference. But I believe if you look at the date of publication it should be published after the date of Phase three release. Howard Marsden credited himself for the naming of the Phase three.
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