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Premier 350 Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, 15 March 2017 6:51:42 PM(UTC)
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One of my regular car sites is Curbside Classic. A wide range of cars, and sometimes the odd plane or locomotive as well.
Anyway there is a regular poster who claims:

1) The HK-T-G Monaro was merely a widened Opel Record with local & Chevrolet engines & gearboxes. ( For starter the Opel has a 3 link and torque tube rear suspension)

2) The LH-UC was just a Vauxhall Victor FD ( not sure on the exact Victor model)

3) The HQ-WB used the 2nd Gen Camaro/Firebird half chassis. That one has been debunked on the site.

I call BS on all of them, but I'm curious to know what the real experts think.

Cheers,

Chris
Attn camry drivers. The accelerator is the skinny pedal on the right.
HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, 15 March 2017 7:13:29 PM(UTC)
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I'm 99.9% certain the HQ was to be a 1970 Beaumont. The Statesman the sedan, the wagon as is, the coupe as is and possibly the ute as the Canadian version of an El Camino. The original HQ that was canned was basically an XA Falcon body on a HK floor pan. No idea how Ford got the design. All GMH did was made the HQ RHD and designed the sedan using the coupe's wheelbase. Leo has said he did the grille. The HQ was done from scratch in 2 years by GMH? Bollocks!

Don't know about the HK being an Opel, it is basically a widened and extended HR, they are so close underneath it is obvious. So for that to be true the HD-HR is an Opel.

Torana not sure, could have some truth to it.
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#3 Posted : Wednesday, 15 March 2017 9:04:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I'm 99.9% certain the HQ was to be a 1970 Beaumont. The Statesman the sedan, the wagon as is, the coupe as is and possibly the ute as the Canadian version of an El Camino. The original HQ that was canned was basically an XA Falcon body on a HK floor pan. No idea how Ford got the design. All GMH did was made the HQ RHD and designed the sedan using the coupe's wheelbase. Leo has said he did the grille. The HQ was done from scratch in 2 years by GMH? Bollocks!

Don't know about the HK being an Opel, it is basically a widened and extended HR, they are so close underneath it is obvious. So for that to be true the HD-HR is an Opel.

Torana not sure, could have some truth to it.


I disagree with the Beaumont theory. Why would GM go to all the trouble to make a Canadian specific model, that was so different to both the Chevy II/ Nova
and the Chevelle/Tempest/Cutlass/Skylark, and fit between them size wise?
In the '80s Wheels magazine did a feature covering the evolution of the HQ. Most pics (and this is from memory) were dated 1968.

Agree re the HK, a quick glance underneath and the HD and earlier features leap out at you.
Attn camry drivers. The accelerator is the skinny pedal on the right.
HK1837 Offline
#4 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 4:54:41 AM(UTC)
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I have pictures of the very early HQ evolution, and the photos are not in Australia. These will be taken back in the earlier 60's when the car was being designed for Canada. The whole concept was cancelled with the 1965 Canada-US Automotive Products Agreement (minor detail on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org...otive_Products_Agreement). You see the end result with the last Canadian specific Beaumont in 1969, after that the Chevelle is sold in Canada.

The whole of the HQ range other than the sedan smack of north American design, you only have to look at the car without blinkers and without GMH's excellent cover-up and careful wording and you quickly realise what the car is. Just look at:

Fuel filler.
Wheel stud pattern.
Chassis design.
How easily SBC and BBC plus TH400 and TH350 fit unchanged.
V8 rear axle orphan from other Holdens (this would have been the Beaumont's Canadian made axle).
Look for a HOLDEN marking anywhere on the car (not easy to find).

These are just a few.

Also look at the timing. The HK based HQ was canned not long before HK release after being viewed by high up GM execs (haven't got the exact timing of this yet). The fitment of the HQ 81569 and 81669 model codes in between HK 81469 (Brougham changed from 80569 XS8 late 1967 into early 1968) and 81837 (GTS Special changed from 80737 XT2 around April 1968) gives you a close enough timing. For GMH to start TOTALLY from scratch with the new HQ at that time and have it ready for when they did is impossible. As it was they shortened the "too long" HT's and slotted the HG in to last until the new HQ. The car line had to have been at least 50-75% sorted in 1968 for GMH to make the early examples of HQ production they did in April 1971.

There is heaps more too it, but if any of it is wrong, it will be saying it was a Beaumont. However there is no doubt in my mind the car the car was destined for a North American showroom and the cancellation timeframe fits perfectly with the 1965 trade agreement.
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wbute Offline
#5 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 6:10:30 AM(UTC)
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Interesting. I think the HQ reeks American design. Just look at the horrendous dash.
wbute Offline
#6 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 6:35:56 AM(UTC)
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Actually quite appalled to see that America, South Africa and Australia all had a version of the same "football,meat pies, kangaroos" add. Just change the local ingredients for each country. Its probably amazing what they got away with before the world got small with better communication.
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#7 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 7:34:45 AM(UTC)
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I just looked at Vauxhall Victors, and the FE has a lot of LH styling cues and also Engineering concepts like live rear axle with coils and rack & pinion but the floorpan is Opel Reckord which is very much Commodore looking. I'd probably say the U sized GMH car (LH, LX, UC) are cousins but the LH isn't an Opel anywhere near as much as a VB is. I'd bet that the LH-UC is the last proper Aussie designed GMH vehicle until maybe the VE.

Anyone want some homework?....https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/cars/vauxhall/44840/view/vauxhall_victor_fe_vx1800_(1976)/

Edited by user Thursday, 16 March 2017 7:37:26 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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wbute Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 9:45:57 AM(UTC)
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https://youtu.be/x1wvQ7ERXhY

This is the SA version.
wbute Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 9:52:00 AM(UTC)
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Just in case you thought it was original..., the US version


https://youtu.be/zqweygy9K9Y
Dr Terry Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 10:28:17 AM(UTC)
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Over the years I've worked on several 1968 to 72 Chevelles. These are very HQ in the underbody area, I'd say the majority of the front & rear suspension components are interchangeable. Also these & similar era mid-sized Pontaics share a lot of styling cues with the HQ.

Dr Terry
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#11 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 10:45:22 AM(UTC)
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Holden never designed a car from scratch, they had only an input to it. the same with all Ford's and Valiant.

Not to mention all of the engines were to do with an input.

That's not to say that any of the input was worthless, as it could not of been done as well without such an input.

Australia's input to all the cars created them better cars and some, well like the 6 cyl Cortina and hemi powered Centura well ha ha they were just tossed in and just hoped for the best.
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#12 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:05:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Holden never designed a car from scratch, they had only an input to it. the same with all Ford's and Valiant.


I disagree. Sure the FX was virtually all Yank, it was originally going to be an Opel, but WWII intervened. The FJ updates were Aussie, OK not much there.

However, the FE (body anyway) was all Aussie, a bloke called Alf Payze was in charge. OK, the Yanks had to sign it off, but the original was penned & built here.

Same goes for the FB, OK a lot of mid-50s Chev styling cues, but again it was penned & built here for the Yanks to rubber stamp. The original EJ prototype, with the recessed door handles & no beaver panels was penned (& built) here, but the Yanks didn't sign it off, so they revised it. The EH rear re-design was done in the states, as was the HD, the HR re-design was done here. The HK was again originally Yank, but it was 'stretched' here to make it look better & make underbonnet access easier.

HQ has been discussed, however all of the HJ/X/Z & WB panel re-designs were done here.

The original (VB) Commodore was an Aussie idea. None of the then current Opels suited as they were, so we put a Senator front clip onto the smaller Rekord & added rack & pinion steering plus decent drivetrains, all done here. The Germans then went onto building their own Commodore using that recipe, but without the good steering, or drivetrains.

The VN was done by using the VB/VL floorpan & suspension (by now Australianised & much better than the original) & added a widened version of the Opel Omega outer body. By the time we finished there wasn't a lot of Opel left in it. Same goes for the VT, Opel based but by now a very distant relative of any Opel.

The VE, IMHO opinion is the most 'Australian' of all, OK the drivetrains are Yank, but ALL of the body, suspension, steering electrical is all designed here, with nothing being a derivative of an overseas design.

Dr Terry

Edit: Actually come to think of it, the LH/LX/UC Torana would be the most Aussie in design & parts content, when you take into account the drivetrain used & the fact that the entire platform is not derived from an overseas design. Early Toranas were either pure Vauxhall or at least Vauxhall based.

Edited by user Thursday, 16 March 2017 3:20:58 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Premier 350 Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 7:33:25 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Over the years I've worked on several 1968 to 72 Chevelles. These are very HQ in the underbody area, I'd say the majority of the front & rear suspension components are interchangeable. Also these & similar era mid-sized Pontaics share a lot of styling cues with the HQ.

Dr Terry


Front shocks, coils, upper control arm bushes are a direct interchange. HQ front sway bars will work, with some simple fabrication work for the chassis mounts. Control arms, lower bushes, ball joints and uprights are different.
On the rear, trailing arm bushes interchange, and the arms look so damn close it ain't funny. Rear shocks differ.
I've done all the above on my Skylark, so I speak with experience.

On the styling front, I agree, especially the 'blister' above the wheel arches.
Attn camry drivers. The accelerator is the skinny pedal on the right.
HK1837 Offline
#14 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 8:17:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Holden never designed a car from scratch, they had only an input to it. the same with all Ford's and Valiant.


I disagree. Sure the FX was virtually all Yank, it was originally going to be an Opel, but WWII intervened. The FJ updates were Aussie, OK not much there.

However, the FE (body anyway) was all Aussie, a bloke called Alf Payze was in charge. OK, the Yanks had to sign it off, but the original was penned & built here.

Same goes for the FB, OK a lot of mid-50s Chev styling cues, but again it was penned & built here for the Yanks to rubber stamp. The original EJ prototype, with the recessed door handles & no beaver panels was penned (& built) here, but the Yanks didn't sign it off, so they revised it. The EH rear re-design was done in the states, as was the HD, the HR re-design was done here. The HK was again originally Yank, but it was 'stretched' here to make it look better & make underbonnet access easier.

HQ has been discussed, however all of the HJ/X/Z & WB panel re-designs were done here.

The original (VB) Commodore was an Aussie idea. None of the then current Opels suited as they were, so we put a Senator front clip onto the smaller Rekord & added rack & pinion steering plus decent drivetrains, all done here. The Germans then went onto building their own Commodore using that recipe, but without the good steering, or drivetrains.

The VN was done by using the VB/VL floorpan & suspension (by now Australianised & much better than the original) & added a widened version of the Opel Omega outer body. By the time we finished there wasn't a lot of Opel left in it. Same goes for the VT, Opel based but by now a very distant relative of any Opel.

The VE, IMHO opinion is the most 'Australian' of all, OK the drivetrains are Yank, but ALL of the body, suspension, steering electrical is all designed here, with nothing being a derivative of an overseas design.

Dr Terry

Edit: Actually come to think of it, the LH/LX/UC Torana would be the most Aussie in design & parts content, when you take into account the drivetrain used & the fact that the entire platform is not derived from an overseas design. Early Toranas were either pure Vauxhall or at least Vauxhall based.


I agree Terry, and why I said the LH-UC was the last proper Aussie GMH designed car until the VE. The VE is largely made up of imported bits though so the U sized Torana is almost unique.
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Premier 350 Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 8:40:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I have pictures of the very early HQ evolution, and the photos are not in Australia. These will be taken back in the earlier 60's when the car was being designed for Canada. The whole concept was cancelled with the 1965 Canada-US Automotive Products Agreement (minor detail on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org...otive_Products_Agreement). You see the end result with the last Canadian specific Beaumont in 1969, after that the Chevelle is sold in Canada.

The whole of the HQ range other than the sedan smack of north American design, you only have to look at the car without blinkers and without GMH's excellent cover-up and careful wording and you quickly realise what the car is. Just look at:

Fuel filler.
Wheel stud pattern.
Chassis design.
How easily SBC and BBC plus TH400 and TH350 fit unchanged.
V8 rear axle orphan from other Holdens (this would have been the Beaumont's Canadian made axle).
Look for a HOLDEN marking anywhere on the car (not easy to find).

These are just a few.

Also look at the timing. The HK based HQ was canned not long before HK release after being viewed by high up GM execs (haven't got the exact timing of this yet). The fitment of the HQ 81569 and 81669 model codes in between HK 81469 (Brougham changed from 80569 XS8 late 1967 into early 1968) and 81837 (GTS Special changed from 80737 XT2 around April 1968) gives you a close enough timing. For GMH to start TOTALLY from scratch with the new HQ at that time and have it ready for when they did is impossible. As it was they shortened the "too long" HT's and slotted the HG in to last until the new HQ. The car line had to have been at least 50-75% sorted in 1968 for GMH to make the early examples of HQ production they did in April 1971.

There is heaps more too it, but if any of it is wrong, it will be saying it was a Beaumont. However there is no doubt in my mind the car the car was destined for a North American showroom and the cancellation timeframe fits perfectly with the 1965 trade agreement.


You make a good case, but I where does the HQ/Beaumont fit into GM's line up? Its bigger than the Nova. And roughly the same size
as the 1968-72 GM intermediates- the A bodies. Those A bodies were replaced by the 1973 intermediates,(known collectively as the 'Colonnades') which were bigger and heavier, and uglier than their predecessors. There is little to no room for a model to fit between the Nova and the Colonnades. And GM would not develop a model so different just for a small market such as Canada.
Yes, they did make Canada only models, Beaumonts, Arcardians, etc, but they were sheet metal variations.Or the "Chevyiac" hybrids with Chevrolet running gear and Pontiac bodies, but they were a mix 'n' match of existing components. Not a unique, Canada only model.

I'm enjoying the debate, over to you.

Cheers, Chris

Attn camry drivers. The accelerator is the skinny pedal on the right.
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#16 Posted : Thursday, 16 March 2017 8:49:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Holden never designed a car from scratch, they had only an input to it. the same with all Ford's and Valiant.


I disagree. Sure the FX was virtually all Yank, it was originally going to be an Opel, but WWII intervened. The FJ updates were Aussie, OK not much there.

However, the FE (body anyway) was all Aussie, a bloke called Alf Payze was in charge. OK, the Yanks had to sign it off, but the original was penned & built here.

Same goes for the FB, OK a lot of mid-50s Chev styling cues, but again it was penned & built here for the Yanks to rubber stamp. The original EJ prototype, with the recessed door handles & no beaver panels was penned (& built) here, but the Yanks didn't sign it off, so they revised it. The EH rear re-design was done in the states, as was the HD, the HR re-design was done here. The HK was again originally Yank, but it was 'stretched' here to make it look better & make underbonnet access easier.

HQ has been discussed, however all of the HJ/X/Z & WB panel re-designs were done here.

The original (VB) Commodore was an Aussie idea. None of the then current Opels suited as they were, so we put a Senator front clip onto the smaller Rekord & added rack & pinion steering plus decent drivetrains, all done here. The Germans then went onto building their own Commodore using that recipe, but without the good steering, or drivetrains.

The VN was done by using the VB/VL floorpan & suspension (by now Australianised & much better than the original) & added a widened version of the Opel Omega outer body. By the time we finished there wasn't a lot of Opel left in it. Same goes for the VT, Opel based but by now a very distant relative of any Opel.

The VE, IMHO opinion is the most 'Australian' of all, OK the drivetrains are Yank, but ALL of the body, suspension, steering electrical is all designed here, with nothing being a derivative of an overseas design.

Dr Terry

Edit: Actually come to think of it, the LH/LX/UC Torana would be the most Aussie in design & parts content, when you take into account the drivetrain used & the fact that the entire platform is not derived from an overseas design. Early Toranas were either pure Vauxhall or at least Vauxhall based.



..Hi Dr. Terry .. great to see the earlies being referred to as an "FX"...that moniker has had a longer history than the snobby "48-215" appellation.

...there are design pics of the FE from way back in the day, showing the Opel logo on an FE sedan (about 1954 ??)...I think it was a Wheels publication, and I'm pretty sure those images were re-published in one of Don Loffler's books....

HK1837 Offline
#17 Posted : Friday, 17 March 2017 5:10:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Premier 350 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I have pictures of the very early HQ evolution, and the photos are not in Australia. These will be taken back in the earlier 60's when the car was being designed for Canada. The whole concept was cancelled with the 1965 Canada-US Automotive Products Agreement (minor detail on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org...otive_Products_Agreement). You see the end result with the last Canadian specific Beaumont in 1969, after that the Chevelle is sold in Canada.

The whole of the HQ range other than the sedan smack of north American design, you only have to look at the car without blinkers and without GMH's excellent cover-up and careful wording and you quickly realise what the car is. Just look at:

Fuel filler.
Wheel stud pattern.
Chassis design.
How easily SBC and BBC plus TH400 and TH350 fit unchanged.
V8 rear axle orphan from other Holdens (this would have been the Beaumont's Canadian made axle).
Look for a HOLDEN marking anywhere on the car (not easy to find).

These are just a few.

Also look at the timing. The HK based HQ was canned not long before HK release after being viewed by high up GM execs (haven't got the exact timing of this yet). The fitment of the HQ 81569 and 81669 model codes in between HK 81469 (Brougham changed from 80569 XS8 late 1967 into early 1968) and 81837 (GTS Special changed from 80737 XT2 around April 1968) gives you a close enough timing. For GMH to start TOTALLY from scratch with the new HQ at that time and have it ready for when they did is impossible. As it was they shortened the "too long" HT's and slotted the HG in to last until the new HQ. The car line had to have been at least 50-75% sorted in 1968 for GMH to make the early examples of HQ production they did in April 1971.

There is heaps more too it, but if any of it is wrong, it will be saying it was a Beaumont. However there is no doubt in my mind the car the car was destined for a North American showroom and the cancellation timeframe fits perfectly with the 1965 trade agreement.


You make a good case, but I where does the HQ/Beaumont fit into GM's line up? Its bigger than the Nova. And roughly the same size
as the 1968-72 GM intermediates- the A bodies. Those A bodies were replaced by the 1973 intermediates,(known collectively as the 'Colonnades') which were bigger and heavier, and uglier than their predecessors. There is little to no room for a model to fit between the Nova and the Colonnades. And GM would not develop a model so different just for a small market such as Canada.
Yes, they did make Canada only models, Beaumonts, Arcardians, etc, but they were sheet metal variations.Or the "Chevyiac" hybrids with Chevrolet running gear and Pontiac bodies, but they were a mix 'n' match of existing components. Not a unique, Canada only model.

I'm enjoying the debate, over to you.

Cheers, Chris



Don't know. All I can tell you is there is little doubt the HQ is a north American design except the sedan which is done here off the coupe. The Beaumont is the best fit, but as I said it may be something different again. I'm not saying it was ALL US design, but the origins of the car are and it was finished here. If the dates are right in Norm's book that the HQ was in tape drawings in Feb-May 1968, it cannot have been designed in record time to be in steel in early 1971. How it was to fit into the GM lineup looking backwards is probably impossible to tell. The 1965 Trade agreement saw massive upheaval taking place over the subsequent 3-4 years culminating in the loss of the unique Canadian vehicles - it even happened here with the 1968 Canadian full size being the last that GMH assembled. The answer will hopefully come when one of us gets to talk to John Schinella...soon.

Very similar dimensions to the '68 to '77 A body as stated: Sedan/Wagon/Ute 114" wheelbase with the 111" coupe. sedan/wagon/pickup 116", coupe/convertible 112". Speaking of A body, go and look closely at the HQ development photos in Norm Darwin's book and see how much they all look like US vehicles. Look the the A model clay proposal on page 94 - it is a HQ coupe with a '68 Impala nose.

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Dr Terry Offline
#18 Posted : Friday, 17 March 2017 7:43:28 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: detective Go to Quoted Post


..Hi Dr. Terry .. great to see the earlies being referred to as an "FX"...that moniker has had a longer history than the snobby "48-215" appellation.

...there are design pics of the FE from way back in the day, showing the Opel logo on an FE sedan (about 1954 ??)...I think it was a Wheels publication, and I'm pretty sure those images were re-published in one of Don Loffler's books....



I have no problem with the term FX. It is almost universally accepted these days. To me it simply means any Holden pre-FJ. i.e. which has a vertical bar grille. Also I find the 48-215 a bit unnecessary. We don't use the term FB-225 for example for an FB Special do we ? If you want be be 100% technically correct, what is wrong with saying 48 series, which is how GM-H referred to them in the day. I mean we say HQ series or FC series, what is wrong with 48 series (or 50 series for the FX Ute) ?

I remember seeing quite a few pictures of FEs etc. wearing Opel badges, but my understanding was that this was a disguise so they could road test the new car on public roads without any hint of it being a new Holden.

I don't know of any 50s era Opel which looks anything like an FE.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Friday, 17 March 2017 8:47:31 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling

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#19 Posted : Friday, 17 March 2017 8:39:45 AM(UTC)
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The other thing that doesn't make sense to me is the HQ vs the LH. If we accept the LH is a local design, it would have been in the inception and early design stage in 1968 or even earlier. If we also believe that the HQ design as we know it was initiated by GMH in 1968 or possibly a bit earlier, why are the cars so different? Why is the UCA locations on the Torana different to the HQ, yet it was a relatively easy fix to make the Salisbury fit? Why is the Torana a front sub frame design with removeable engine crossmember (like an LC-LJ and similar to most other Holden prior) but the HQ isn't? Some bits are shared as we all know, but for economies of scale you'd think there would be far more commonality than there is. I think the answer is the LH was already partially designed along with the original HK based HQ, but when it was canned and the US designed HQ made the new HQ lots of the design was set in stone already. GMH still had a lot to do - they still had to do plenty, like for example make HK stubs fit, make the banjo and HK rear brakes fit, adapt the local Holden 6 and V8's and transmissions, nad not forgetting, develop the sedan. Leo Pruneau has always said that his first Holden job when he arrived here in 1969 was to do the HQ grille area, and we can also see from development clay models in Norm's book that the final design was not set even in 1968-1969, so there was still plenty to do. The reality though is if the HQ was a "normal" GMH design it'd have been well finished before the 1970's even began, and they'd have been working on the HV ready for 1972 release well before HQ release. As I stated prior it is obvious that some HQ model codes were added some time during 1967 and some in early 1968 by the way the HQ 811/812 come before HK 814, and HQ 815/816 are before HK 818. Just think of what the HQ was going to be (remodelled HK, like the EJ/EH is a remodelled FE), and suddenly they had this LWB sedan available, so they added the Statesman and developed a HQ coupe out of the sedan. When you draw up a big whiteboard picture with timelines (not just historical timelines but planned dates) it quickly becomes apparent that something is not right. If you accept that the HQ was a canned US design and the design was completed here then it all works.

And in the end, ignoring the HQ sedan just think of the lineup as the following and how they all look similar and how they compare to a Chevrolet A body or Pontiac A body lineup:

HQ Statesman
HQ Wagon
HQ Ute.
HQ coupe, very different looking to the above three.

Now look at 1969:

Chevelle Sedan.
Chevelle Wagon.
El Camino.
Coupe or Pontiac GTO.

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castellan Offline
#20 Posted : Friday, 17 March 2017 11:20:02 AM(UTC)
castellan

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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Holden never designed a car from scratch, they had only an input to it. the same with all Ford's and Valiant.


I disagree. Sure the FX was virtually all Yank, it was originally going to be an Opel, but WWII intervened. The FJ updates were Aussie, OK not much there.

However, the FE (body anyway) was all Aussie, a bloke called Alf Payze was in charge. OK, the Yanks had to sign it off, but the original was penned & built here.

Same goes for the FB, OK a lot of mid-50s Chev styling cues, but again it was penned & built here for the Yanks to rubber stamp. The original EJ prototype, with the recessed door handles & no beaver panels was penned (& built) here, but the Yanks didn't sign it off, so they revised it. The EH rear re-design was done in the states, as was the HD, the HR re-design was done here. The HK was again originally Yank, but it was 'stretched' here to make it look better & make underbonnet access easier.

HQ has been discussed, however all of the HJ/X/Z & WB panel re-designs were done here.

The original (VB) Commodore was an Aussie idea. None of the then current Opels suited as they were, so we put a Senator front clip onto the smaller Rekord & added rack & pinion steering plus decent drivetrains, all done here. The Germans then went onto building their own Commodore using that recipe, but without the good steering, or drivetrains.

The VN was done by using the VB/VL floorpan & suspension (by now Australianised & much better than the original) & added a widened version of the Opel Omega outer body. By the time we finished there wasn't a lot of Opel left in it. Same goes for the VT, Opel based but by now a very distant relative of any Opel.

The VE, IMHO opinion is the most 'Australian' of all, OK the drivetrains are Yank, but ALL of the body, suspension, steering electrical is all designed here, with nothing being a derivative of an overseas design.

Dr Terry

Edit: Actually come to think of it, the LH/LX/UC Torana would be the most Aussie in design & parts content, when you take into account the drivetrain used & the fact that the entire platform is not derived from an overseas design. Early Toranas were either pure Vauxhall or at least Vauxhall based.


I said from scratch, not scratch to finish.

The FX had a hell of a lot of work done over the ones that were sent to Australia, it was very much more of a Opel in it's design, Australia picked that car from GM and went with it, taking much of the Vauxhall engine as it's foundations on making their own.
The FJ is the same body as the FX just with improvements.

With the FE Holden sure Alf was in charge but we did not make the design or all the tooling that made the cars and the same with EJ HD HK HQ all had GM input.

The VB commodore was a Opel Vauxhall and I seen them in 1975 and a much superior car than the crap we got here, gear box was way better as was the 3.0L 6 cyl engine not to mention it had the IRS rear end.
Holden just used the body and put all our 3rd rate cheap crap in it and the only saving thing about it was for the work done on RTS and it was luck that the V8 could fit in, so some performance could be obtained, hell even the 6 CYL 3.0L they had could flogs our 5.0L V8.

The VN better than the original VB suspension, how is that, the VN handled like a bucket of, the VB was the best handling car by far and even the VN IRS was 3dr rate backwards crap.
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