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HK1837 Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, 24 July 2019 2:42:55 PM(UTC)
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I had a thought about this after some comments about LX in this thread:

http://www.fastlane.com....-hoses-have-washers.aspx

I actually don't have the answers, but thought I'd put it up there for discussion. I'd limit it to what people here are most interested in - the period from 48/215 through to WB and VK. And leave out anything that isn't Holden branded, so HDT stuff is out but GroupA's are in. Includes Torana, Gemini etc. But maybe forget about stuff most people here don't really know that well like Novas, Drovers etc.

Questions are complimentary:

1. Which Series had the least number of changes along its run?

2. Which Series had the most?

By changes I mean anything from added models (like HQ commercials being added later in 1971, and HQ V8 cab chassis added in 1973) through to colour and/or trim changes (like mentioned in the other thread, LH colours and trims changing with the HQ-HJ changeover), engine specification changes (like X2 being replaced with 186S in HR) or even front caliper changes like mentioned by Dr Terry in that other thread for LX. For the sake of the argument I'd call all those first cars FX, so the 48-215 are lumped in with 50-2016 etc, really just for consistency. And don't worry too much about alternative suppliers of bolts, electrics etc, or batch change variations especially for imported stuff like carby numbers changing format on 350ci engines for example, rather than the number changing as the carby actually changed.


I'll throw one in there to show what I mean. I'll nominate for starters, HT for question 1 although I doubt it is the answer. Changes that I can think of off the top of my head (although will probably be a fraction of the total). I picked HT as most of the models were released at the same time and not staggered like some other Series.

Revised upper control arm mounts around the release of GTS350.
Release of GTS350 later than the rest of HT (although done by necessity rather than by design).
Auto behind 253 made available later in 1969.
308 made available outside of Brougham later in 1969.
GTS350 mods initially done by dealers added to later production vehicles (maybe)? I'd include the wheel change in this.
GTS350M tailshaft specification changes.
Not sure if you'd include Trimatic in some later cars, as that may well only be trials for HG rather than an actual production change.

I'm sure there is a lot more than that for HT especially the minor stuff, but I guess you'd get the real little stuff in all Series.

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Sandaro Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, 24 July 2019 4:23:22 PM(UTC)
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Wow, that's got to be a question for the expert of the experts. My knowledge is no where near that wide to know those sort of changes across the models.


Having a stab in the dark I would have said that HG would have had very few changes, not that I can name any. Just saying based on the short model life of the HG and with HQ so far up the pipeline at the time, the lineup was set from day one of HG (as far as I know) and there wouldn't have been the justification to make changes
HK1837 Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, 24 July 2019 4:37:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
Wow, that's got to be a question for the expert of the experts. My knowledge is no where near that wide to know those sort of changes across the models.


Having a stab in the dark I would have said that HG would have had very few changes, not that I can name any. Just saying based on the short model life of the HG and with HQ so far up the pipeline at the time, the lineup was set from day one of HG (as far as I know) and there wouldn't have been the justification to make changes


Don't forget that HG continued into HQ as commercials, so got 6cyl engines changed to 173 and 202 (in both HC and LC), plus HG had a few ADR revisions along the way. According to the features manual the HG's with HQ engines also got HQ style Trimatics, however they retained the cable kickdown. It also looks like the GTS350 diff ratio changed from 3.36 to 3.08 in September 1970.

There was also a colour chart change during HG, plus a change in 350 manual engine (basically as per first and second type HK 327 engines). And the GTS350 was removed from the model lineup before the end of 1970. There was a lot of options and trims and even colours removed as HQ came closer as well.

I think there were some seatbelt changes too, and maybe a brake warning thing that was part of an ADR revision.

Not a huge amount though compared to other Series, may end being less than HT.

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KBM Offline
#4 Posted : Wednesday, 24 July 2019 6:17:33 PM(UTC)
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I'll have a stab at the 48/215 as being the least changes mainly because we were new at building cars. Didn't vary much in the "accessory" department. As far as the most changes i'd go for the Hj as this model saw the introduction of the newer pollution requirements and the rts.
HK1837 Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, 24 July 2019 7:05:48 PM(UTC)
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It could be FX, Dr Terry will have an idea. Ute was added as was a few different variants. I think there was a few changes along the way as well like door locks moving.

It won’t be HJ for most changes, but more likely HQ or WB.
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HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Wednesday, 24 July 2019 7:26:09 PM(UTC)
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I was also thinking TA for least?
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, 24 July 2019 8:10:13 PM(UTC)
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For HT you would have to add that Monaro and Brougham were also released later than rest of renage.
HT 350 changed wheels, brake venting and air cleaner.
Some 350 also had different heads.

Hk had many changes also:
Removal of trim on dog leg for Kingswood
Utes released
Steering wheel
Radiator support changed
Air on V8 with disc
Console shift added
V8 Manual added
Monaro and Brougham added
New brake booster
New inner guard
Front door remote handle moved
glovebox and boot light added for GTS
Plus a few more, a bit late to think.

Warren

commodorenut Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 6:13:32 AM(UTC)
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I'll take a stab & say VL - there were so many changes over a very short period of time, in an era where GMH were bleeding money from every orifice, and knee-jerk reactions where the order of the day to save every last cent where possible. Potentially VN could give it a run for the money though - it has a very well documented list of changes too, as well as many that weren't so well published (like the Holden embossing in the front bumper, and lion logos in the headlight glass, that both disappeared prior to the Lexcen debut).

Just a few of the VL ones off the top of my head (which are published in either parts books, TSBs or other dealer comms):
(I have not taken into account differences between the 2 plants either)
- Calais radio update
- Calais alarm introduction (change of wiring harness for Calais & Berlina).
- Calais dash change (graphics)
- All dash change (thickness of backing panels + introduction of low coolant
- 3x exterior colour changes.
- 2x interior colour deletions
- dash paint process/items changed.
- floorpan pressing change (to allow V8)
- cable to rod auto shifter change (6 cyl auto)
- carpet shape change (to suit the floor)
- console change (to suit the floor)
- power window motor change.
- power window frame change (front doors) from cast to pressed.
- power window mech change (rear doors - gearing).
- Alternator change (Hitachi)
- Chrome strips on Calais changed (multiple pieces consolidated)
- Boot badge change
- Introduction of Turbo
- Introduction of V8
- Front caliper change for V8, Turbo & BT1
- Introduction of 15" steel wheels for above.
- Larger fuel tank option introduced (factory fit).
- Door handles went from chrome to black.
- A/C evaporator core & case changed.
- Headrest & button update on Calais trim (with earlier Holden seats).
- Industry seat update (3rd Calais trim change).
- Brackets on rear shelf changed on Calais to suit narrower headrest pins.
- Calais door trim & glovebox lid update.
- Boot carpet change.
- sill covers changed from black to grey
- Berlina seat trim changes 2 or 3 times, depending on colour (knit fabric, then stitched velour, then woven lines in velour).
- Seat fabric change on SL/Exec back to VK fabric
- Pattern change for trimming rear seat back.
- Windscreen trim change (smooth to rough finish plastic)
- Introduction (and retro-fit) of the rubber piece to stop bonnet flutter

Thinking about VL, even VK had a massive amount of changes during production too (especially the 84/85 engine & emissions variations).
Cheers,

Mick
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HK1837 Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 6:54:38 AM(UTC)
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Warren, I forgot about the HT Brougham. I did mention the wheels and other mods. I don't think there were any different production heads on HT 350? They were all Tonawanda engines in HT, thus only 1 x fuelie (041) and 1 x large chamber version (441).

VL has a lot Mick, you missed the 2 x Group A's! I still think it would be less than HQ though. When you factor in all the changes that went along with AHQ-BHQ-CHQ-DHQ-EHQ there would be dozens. Plus all the package vehicles like XV2, XV4, XW8, XX7, XU7, the 2 x Vacationers plus more. Addition of retractables, changes to consoles, at least 4 x different colour charts plus HJ colours came early. Trim changes from 1x to 2x to 3x plus more. All the clean air engines around 8-9/73. 4 x different spec 350 engines. Change from Canadian to ROH N66 rims. Addition of 80160, 80170, 80180, 80270, 80280, 80380 and 80480 late in 1971 then addition of 80260 in 1973. These are all from memory, there will be countless more.

Forgot about the changes to VIN tag in late 1972 plus the alignment of the way body tags were stamped across the body plants. On top of that the variations between body and assembly plants where for example black firewall to painted firewall at Pagewood and Dandenong, and then I think back to black again at Dandenong. Pagewood starting building vans around 3/73 then stopping a year later. Coupe production and Statesman production shifted to Pagewood. Cessation of assembly at Mosman Park.

Panel Van lost the side gills/vents mid 1974.

Edited by user Thursday, 25 July 2019 8:01:26 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Dr Terry Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 8:20:51 AM(UTC)
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This debate could go on forever.

I think I'm with Mick. The running changes in the mid-80s (VH/VK/VL) could fill a book.

Of the earlier series, the HQ would probably win out, based purely on the fact that it was on the market for well over 3 years.

Byron the HT series had 4 separate release dates:

26 May - Sedan/Wagon
13 June - Monaro/ Brougham
26 June - Ute/Van
25 Aug - GTS350

HK had 3, while HG only had one. All HG variants were released on 26 July 70.

Someone earlier mentioned FX for the minimum number, but there were many production changes over its virtually 5-year run, even if you don't include the 50 series Ute.

For the minimum TA is a good answer, but lets face it, the TA was a short run 'stop gap' model which sold only around 11,000 cars in total.

I think of the major model runs, EJ or HX would have the least changes. EJ had 2 release dates (1 for passenger & 1 for commercials) whereas the HX only had 1 release in similar fashion to HG.

The number of running changes for both EJ & HX would be quite small compared to HR, HK, HT, HG, HQ, HJ or even HZ.

HD is another series which only had 2 release dates & fewer than usual running changes. EK is another candidate for fewest changes, while FJ, FE, FC & FB had a lot more changes.

Dr Terry
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HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 9:28:20 AM(UTC)
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Good points Terry, HT was simply an example to set the scenario.

I agree on TA but it was an outright Series regardless of how many made.

Not so sold on HX, although the total changes may well still be small. Here are a few more that I can think of:

LE release.
Deluxe release.
Silver Anniversary Kingswood.
DL7 stripe option added for Sandman.
Change at some stage to standard buckets on Kingswood sedan and wagon.
M11 console shift made available on bucket seat commercials late in 1976.
AHX to BHX ADR’s (multiple changes like high beam indicator, intrusion bars, brake warning lamp etc).
RTS upper control arm mount change mid 1977.
Dandenong ceased building and assembling utes around 9/76.
Significant amount of standard rear axle changes, like 4.2 manual from 3.08 to 3.55 and 2.78 to 2.6 on Salisbury. And Premier changing from 3.08 std to 3.36.
Caliper change plus stub axle change.
Kingswood and Sandman rear headlining attachment revised.
Spare wheel hoist on commercials changed in early 1977.
Minor console cover changes for both manual and auto to allow for commonisation across local and export market transmissions. I think this only affects auto HX and manual changed at release.
I think there were some tyre options added too.
Sales feature packages A9D, A9E and A9F added, changed and then later deleted (mainly when buckets became std). These were for Kingswood sedan and wagon.
A9D was XS6 (buckets), D55 (seat separator), D33 (remote control mirror) and QRQ (185SR14 radial tubeless).
A9E was the same but D55 replaced by M11 (console shift).
A9F was A8R (front bench with centre armrest) and A8S (rear bench with centre armrest).
BT1 (Vic Police package) added.
C49 heated rear window added as mandatory option to some models.

Still a lot less changes than HJ or HZ though.

Edited by user Thursday, 25 July 2019 11:25:32 AM(UTC)  | Reason: More added

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Dr Terry Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 12:25:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post

Change at some stage to standard buckets on Kingswood sedan and wagon.


I've got March 77 for that update.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
HK1837 Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 2:25:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post

Change at some stage to standard buckets on Kingswood sedan and wagon.


I've got March 77 for that update.

Dr Terry


31/3/77 is when it is recognised in the Features Manual, but not sure if that means it happened in March or April or even before March. Often the Features manual change happens a few months after it is known to change, or sometimes before. You'd have to look at a heap of HX Kingswood passenger cars and see when they started to become all 5 seaters.
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Dr Terry Offline
#14 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 2:53:04 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post

Change at some stage to standard buckets on Kingswood sedan and wagon.


I've got March 77 for that update.

Dr Terry


31/3/77 is when it is recognised in the Features Manual, but not sure if that means it happened in March or April or even before March. Often the Features manual change happens a few months after it is known to change, or sometimes before. You'd have to look at a heap of HX Kingswood passenger cars and see when they started to become all 5 seaters.


Yes, the date is a bit vague. I've got it from Redbook & some dealership notes. They both say 'available March 77'. I my language that would have to be February 77 production.

Dr Terry
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HK1837 Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 5:10:32 PM(UTC)
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Unfortunately the 2/77 "People Trust Holden" range brochure (with a red LX Sunbird on the cover) doesn't mention seats on Kingswood sedan/wagon.

Available can mean "available to order" sometimes. Other times it can mean "available to buy". Makes it a pain sometimes as I'm sure you are very familiar with!
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castellan Offline
#16 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 5:18:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Good points Terry, HT was simply an example to set the scenario.

I agree on TA but it was an outright Series regardless of how many made.

Not so sold on HX, although the total changes may well still be small. Here are a few more that I can think of:

LE release.
Deluxe release.
Silver Anniversary Kingswood.
DL7 stripe option added for Sandman.
Change at some stage to standard buckets on Kingswood sedan and wagon.
M11 console shift made available on bucket seat commercials late in 1976.
AHX to BHX ADR’s (multiple changes like high beam indicator, intrusion bars, brake warning lamp etc).
RTS upper control arm mount change mid 1977.
Dandenong ceased building and assembling utes around 9/76.
Significant amount of standard rear axle changes, like 4.2 manual from 3.08 to 3.55 and 2.78 to 2.6 on Salisbury. And Premier changing from 3.08 std to 3.36.
Caliper change plus stub axle change.
Kingswood and Sandman rear headlining attachment revised.
Spare wheel hoist on commercials changed in early 1977.
Minor console cover changes for both manual and auto to allow for commonisation across local and export market transmissions. I think this only affects auto HX and manual changed at release.
I think there were some tyre options added too.
Sales feature packages A9D, A9E and A9F added, changed and then later deleted (mainly when buckets became std). These were for Kingswood sedan and wagon.
A9D was XS6 (buckets), D55 (seat separator), D33 (remote control mirror) and QRQ (185SR14 radial tubeless).
A9E was the same but D55 replaced by M11 (console shift).
A9F was A8R (front bench with centre armrest) and A8S (rear bench with centre armrest).
BT1 (Vic Police package) added.
C49 heated rear window added as mandatory option to some models.

Still a lot less changes than HJ or HZ though.

What RTS in a HX ?
Warren Turnbull Offline
#17 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 5:20:26 PM(UTC)
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I agree with the TA only change was the colour range when HJ was released.

Most changes will be a Commodore, I would have even thought a VN had a fair few, but the list for the VL may be far greater, after all the vehicle packages have not been included, I think there were around 8 in total (I do not count the Group As as they are not Holden as such) . And you have also left off, V8 becoming available.

I wonder how many running changes there were in VE and VF? I am already noticing a lot of changes on my VE.
HK1837 Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 5:35:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Good points Terry, HT was simply an example to set the scenario.

I agree on TA but it was an outright Series regardless of how many made.

Not so sold on HX, although the total changes may well still be small. Here are a few more that I can think of:

LE release.
Deluxe release.
Silver Anniversary Kingswood.
DL7 stripe option added for Sandman.
Change at some stage to standard buckets on Kingswood sedan and wagon.
M11 console shift made available on bucket seat commercials late in 1976.
AHX to BHX ADR’s (multiple changes like high beam indicator, intrusion bars, brake warning lamp etc).
RTS upper control arm mount change mid 1977.
Dandenong ceased building and assembling utes around 9/76.
Significant amount of standard rear axle changes, like 4.2 manual from 3.08 to 3.55 and 2.78 to 2.6 on Salisbury. And Premier changing from 3.08 std to 3.36.
Caliper change plus stub axle change.
Kingswood and Sandman rear headlining attachment revised.
Spare wheel hoist on commercials changed in early 1977.
Minor console cover changes for both manual and auto to allow for commonisation across local and export market transmissions. I think this only affects auto HX and manual changed at release.
I think there were some tyre options added too.
Sales feature packages A9D, A9E and A9F added, changed and then later deleted (mainly when buckets became std). These were for Kingswood sedan and wagon.
A9D was XS6 (buckets), D55 (seat separator), D33 (remote control mirror) and QRQ (185SR14 radial tubeless).
A9E was the same but D55 replaced by M11 (console shift).
A9F was A8R (front bench with centre armrest) and A8S (rear bench with centre armrest).
BT1 (Vic Police package) added.
C49 heated rear window added as mandatory option to some models.

Still a lot less changes than HJ or HZ though.

What RTS in a HX ?


Yes, some RTS changes happened in HX. That is another good trivia Question, when was RTS first applied to a GMH designed vehicle? It was option code FE4.

Edited by user Thursday, 25 July 2019 6:14:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 5:49:26 PM(UTC)
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I think that the TA Torana wins the least changed Holden.

As for the HT Trimatic was that the last month of the 6 cyl or was it the Holden V8's that ran out of the 2sp auto's.
Maybe they sold more 253 autos than they thought they would and had to toss them in.

A HT Brougham with a Trimatic now that would be rare and better than a HG Brougham because they come with high backed bucket seats and rear as well and the HG go back to the HK type of rubbish.
So a HT Brougham with a 3sp auto factory now that would be the rarest of them all, if it's true.

Not to mention that the HK and HT 2sp auto were a slug with that 2.78 diff, a mate had a HK Brougham back in 1978 and confesses that's what he hated about it.
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#20 Posted : Thursday, 25 July 2019 6:01:48 PM(UTC)
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Remember that panhard rod in the HZ RTS was a big deal, but the Ford 1965 Galaxie 500 came out with that and it was made in Australia, I can not remember what side the lower bit came down on to the axel, on the Holden's it was on the passenger side due to the exhaust I would think and the Galaxie maybe on the other side due to exhaust coming out the driver side ?

Then there is the Wats link in the XE Ford much was made about that back in the day as being so much better, but was it ? many a XE driver was caught out with the tail coming out that oversteering I seen end up in a ditch when they came out and Dicky boy Johnson used a different set up I think for racing, If I remember correctly he bagged it.
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