Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Login


Take the time to read our Privacy Policy.

2 Pages12>
castellan Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, 27 July 2019 11:35:25 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,325

Thanks: 12 times
Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 11 post(s)
I am wondering what people think about the Holden models.

One could talk about Kingswood's for example and why one thinks something about such a thing being special or was so good a thing in the day or even now.

One could talk about the FX Holden about just how advanced it was at the time, let alone nowadays the average dude would just take such for granted.

As the younger generation may miss the truth of such innovation and such will be lost to history.

Or one could point out the Sandman trend why was this so and then why it passed away.

Or how you may think that a HG Monaro was the ducks nuts at the time or that a HG Premier with a 308 T Bar auto would of been a fine car in the day and that it could be optioned with a 4sp manual and dual exhaust.

One could put up a time line of Holden release dates VS Ford offerings or Valiant ect.

I will start with the TA Torana now that's a model that never needed to be tampered with, it must of been that good. as a Holden product on it's own. lets just say that we will not talk about it's contenders yet but just it's self in the Holden world of things and then one could point out the contenders and all. just subjects that one could ponder on. and why a low compression slant 4 and why did this engine take over from the LJ 1.6L high compression lets say could be interesting.

Or why did Holden make HQ 173 202 253 308 as to why one would chose a 173 or a 308 and we can see the numbers made, was it the correct thing to market even ?
HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, 27 July 2019 12:17:40 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 13,036

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 163 time(s) in 161 post(s)
The answers to most of that is out there, but to address it all is hours of work. I have lots of internal GMH memos that address some of it as it gives some context to why certain decisions were made.

As for the most desirable that is going to come down in the end to personal choice, but I think there are really only a few contenders and which one you choose will be for personal reasons. I shortlist the ones I think below.

HK GTS327. The first and essentially only true Muscle Car built in Australia, using the original US criteria for a Muscle Car. Created as an image car but modified right at the last minute to turn it into a Bathurst crushing weapon. This car is the reason Ford built the XR GT in the first place and later the GT-HO's after the XT GT's got their arses whipped at Bathurst in 1968.

HT-HG GTS350 manual. The natural evolution of the HK GTS327. And a winner in its own right at the mountain and subsequent races against a no-expenses spared GT-HO factory race car.

XU1. 1000's of these made but very popular and a giant killer in 1972. A true factory race car but built on a budget.

VK Group A. Another GMH factory racer, and the most powerful carburetted GMH vehicle. It took nearly 20 years to make one more powerful than the HT-HG GTS350.

As well as these you have the homologation cars like the L34 and A9X, both which are very desirable and highly valued principally due to their very small build numbers. And I guess too the L34 has actual Bathurst wins under its belt too.

And 350 powered HQ's. The GTS's pull big money but any other 350 powered HQ's are very much wanted. Although very popular will probably never eclipse the HK-HG 81837 prices.

Probably similar for 350 auto HT-HG.

Then once you get into the lower tiered cars I guess it all becomes subjective. Like any other V8 HK-HG GTS, LH-LX SLR5000, 308/5.0L HQ-HJ GTS coupes, HQ-HZ GTS sedans, LE coupe, 308/5.0L Sandmans etc, LC-LJ GTR. They all have their followers but will never see the $ the big boys pull.

The reason people chose certain cars in the day or certain options is easy in most cases - $. For example a HT GTS was $3198 plus rego. Today you'd think what idiot wouldn't pay $3438 to get a V8 HT GTS, that is only $240! But that is 7.5% extra. In today's terms it is like $2500 or more. OK, why not get a 308, rally rims with D70 tyres, dual exhaust and rally stripes on the sides. That is $77 + $28 + $60 + $10. Another $175. So you are suddenly paying over 10% more and the car looks the same! And costs more to run and insure. And if you want aircon that is another $460, which is why it is very rare.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Warren Turnbull Offline
#3 Posted : Saturday, 27 July 2019 4:23:00 PM(UTC)
Warren Turnbull

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered, Veteran
Joined: 10/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,286

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 14 post(s)
Most desirable is an interesting question. As Byron said "which cars are coveted by more people?"

The simple answer is top line performance cars. As these are the flavor of the month, at the moment. They are also the ones that many desire but can never afford.

But not too many of those listed would be coveted by people under the age of 30, so although desirable here, the younger generation would desire cars like the VL Calais manual turbo, VN Group A, V2 Monaro VE/VF SS etc.

Yes here Byron is right for our generation, but on many other Holden forums they would not even rate a mention.
castellan Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, 28 July 2019 11:13:18 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,325

Thanks: 12 times
Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 11 post(s)
I agree totally Warren that is true.

I am not a fan of Bathurst ect in regard to cars at all, but as to what one could buy at the time off the floor. as the reason I would of wanted to buy a car would not be influenced on Bathurst at all, all tho I loved Bathurst ect back in the days and if I had the coin I would of liked to race.

I don't idolise cars, I see faults or something I don't like with all of them.

I can even see the point of why someone would of bought a TA Torana ? not that I would want one, but for the wife maybe as a runabout may of done fine. you know I am even impressed with the 2.0L 4sp TC-D Cortina performance of the day, it's a tin can and looks like crap not to mention a bucket of shit handling car with a 6 cyl in them but the 2.0L is not as bad.

Ok most people think that a 202 HQ handles like shit, but that's not true with the right mods it could be fine, like good shocks just for a start, it's little tweaks that can make a car just so much better than it came off the floor new, that major bugbears can be rectified.

One can look at the FJ Holden as a bucket of shit but back in the day it was very advanced car. one can look at the HB Torana in the same light but in 1967 it was not that bad to plod about town in, just look at it had a 4sp manual on the floor and bucket seats and sports dash and if you take a peep under the skirt their is a coil sprung setup with a Salisbury diff your looking at haha ! not to mention the Brabham ! or a optional sun roof, boy Holden was just starting to produce cars for people who love to drive. remember the HR 186S with a 4sp on the floor.

I love the HK-T-G GTS Monaros but the back seat is crap as I have never seen a centre armrest, so I would of gone Premier as I like rear doors and hate getting out of the back or having to let people in and out like so. HT-G you could option GTS dash and get a Steering wheel for it and dual exhaust with 4 tips tho I never seen one like that, not to mention you have better lights.
Warren Turnbull Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, 28 July 2019 11:25:15 AM(UTC)
Warren Turnbull

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered, Veteran
Joined: 10/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,286

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 14 post(s)
I did actually own a TA Torana. I needed a car to get me to TAFE 4 nights a week and wanted a small car that I knew would be there when I came out.

Irony is the TA got stolen, found 400m from the TAFE I was going to that night.

I saw it go around the clock 3 times in the 5 years that I owned it. It had many short comings, but as a transport it was ok. (never want to own another though)
HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, 28 July 2019 2:04:42 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 13,036

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 163 time(s) in 161 post(s)
I don't think you'll find that HK-HG Monaros in general will ever see a big drop off in generational interest like we have seen in the past with FJ's and EH's. I have friends and relatives with kids that are right into stuff I see as junk, like VL Commodores, Nissan GTR's and diesels that make stupid whistling noises when they change gears. But whenever there is a HK Monaro around they flock to them. They aren't really interested in LH-LX Torana or sedans from the 60's and 70's but show them a HK or HT-HG coupe and they love it. Especially if they have a big V8 in them. This generation also seems to be into Sandman vans too. I think you'll find a similar trend in the USA with 60's Camaro and Mustang. Even the Fast and the Furious generation with their Japanese junk know and appreciate the Chargers, Challengers and Camaros in the movies. You'll probably find the same for XA-XC coupes, young kids love them but probably aren't all that interested in the sedan GT's.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
wbute Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, 28 July 2019 4:19:36 PM(UTC)
wbute

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 894

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 10 time(s) in 10 post(s)
I guess interest in a car can come from many ways. Mum and Dad has a HJ wagon when I was a kid. I never want one of them. But my brother had a WB ute when I was about 16 and I was just getting in to cars then. I have loved them ever since. I guess I like Sandman’s because they were the ultimate option in a Holden ute from the era. I would love a VG Maloo though as they were the ultimate ute when I left school and they were current.
I have no desire to buy Monaro though, I would prefer a nice factory V8 HT/T/G ute if I had to buy one from back then.
It’s horses for courses I guess.
One thing is for sure though, they all lose their value as generations change and I reckon Holden Sandmans are going to be the ones to lose the most value in time.
Dr Terry Offline
#8 Posted : Monday, 29 July 2019 7:58:44 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,529

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 79 time(s) in 74 post(s)
Some of the above posts have mentioned a "drop off in generational interest" of the older cars. How is that measured ?

The only number we have to go off are resale figures & I find that FJ & EH resale figures are at an all-time high.

A few years ago $50K for an EH would've been for the best one on the planet. Recently we've seen $100K for a low mileage Premier wagon & $50 for several rarely average cars. FJ numbers also show no drop & plenty of solid numbers.

I don't think it is a simple generation thing. I've recently noted an increase in interest in T-Model Ford by young people who have no family connection or otherwise.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
HK1837 Offline
#9 Posted : Monday, 29 July 2019 8:38:51 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 13,036

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 163 time(s) in 161 post(s)
When I was a kid everyone wanted EH’s, they were the duck’s nuts. But over time interests changed to later stuff. All through the 80’s and 90’s I saw really good old stuff at wreckers that would be good $ cars today but they were scrapped after having their goodies removed as the desirability dropped off. I’d almost bet that the $ of most stuff today is high not solely due to desirability, but due to how many are left plus the cost of labour today to restore a car compared to buying a good one will weigh into that. There are some really nice useable FX to HR out there for sale that might not be pristine but are good cars, for under $30k. You find any HK to HJ coupe in the same condition and at least triple that, and at the extreme end of the scale a HK coupe can be only a few months younger than a HR. There are still nice cars out there for sale for under $8000, but a rusted out HK coupe good for nothing but tags sells for $35k.
These are great examples:

https://www.ebay.com.au/...45bb3:g:zSoAAOSwD4Rc0Wi7

https://www.ebay.com.au/...bf1df:g:mhEAAOSwhktdCE23

https://www.ebay.com.au/...d=p2349624.c100889.m5204

https://www.ebay.com.au/...dHbBs#vi__app-cvip-panel

I get there was a lot more early stuff made than HK-HJ coupe but that only narrows the pool. There will always be big $ paid by people who have more money than most, like the big bucks paid in recent times for those HT-HG auto GTS350 cars, same will happen with really good early stuff. I have commented a fair bit lately to a good mate of mine how cheap these old girls are if you just wanted a good old Holden to putt around in. The last few Shannon’s auctions have had some nice old cars for bigger all really. Look at lots 38 and 39 from the Shannon’s Melbourne Winter auction and compare to lots 72-74.

Edited by user Monday, 29 July 2019 8:47:52 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
wbute Offline
#10 Posted : Monday, 29 July 2019 8:55:47 AM(UTC)
wbute

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 894

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 10 time(s) in 10 post(s)
Who knows I guess Terry. That is a high price for a EH for sure. I guess the only thing anyone can know for sure is prices paid for cars at auctions. All privately sold ones have no proof of the sale or price.
Perhaps a lot of investors are testing the market now too. They may have no interest in the cars at all and are driving the market, which could be good and bad. Good for short term price increases but potentially bad for any actual car lovers hoping to sell their cars to fund retirement etc if these investors find a better market somewhere else.
I’ll stick with my $600 rolling shell HX Sandman ute, purchased about ten years ago. I am glad I have it as the ridiculous prices asked these days would prohibit me from buying a car I always wanted to own.
HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, 29 July 2019 9:42:42 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 13,036

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 163 time(s) in 161 post(s)
I have actually been tempted a few times by a really good HD or HR auto ready to go car, seen a few for under $20k. I have the whole driveline from my HK GTS that needs a home, 307 ‘glide and LSD banjo. None of it is original to the car so no use keeping it aside, and the whole lot from fan through to gearbox crossmember and diff centre will bolt straight into a HD-HR other than the diff housing mod for the 2.78 carrier. I’m pretty sure even the HK V8 Powerglide column shift crossover (I have off the Brougham donor) hooks up to a HD-HR column too. I’d just need a radiator and tail shaft plus an exhaust made up too. Would make for a cool cruising car. I guess the Engineer may insist upon HK brakes though but these are all coming off the GTS too so they and the GTS’s 5” rims could go on the car as well.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Dr Terry Offline
#12 Posted : Monday, 29 July 2019 11:17:28 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 5,529

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 79 time(s) in 74 post(s)
Yes, HD/HR are still relatively cheap, their prices are on the way up currently.

A good original HR Premier could've been yours for $20K a just a few years ago. We are now talking $40K-50K for the same car.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
HK1837 Offline
#13 Posted : Monday, 29 July 2019 11:30:29 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 13,036

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 163 time(s) in 161 post(s)
They are all the same though, even HK/HG sedan have gone silly. I’d probably rather a ute or wagon than a sedan though. I looked at a decent HD Premier a month or so ago for $16k. Paint was faded and needed front seats redoing but rust free.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
KBM Offline
#14 Posted : Monday, 29 July 2019 6:09:54 PM(UTC)
KBM

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 21/04/2017(UTC)
Posts: 224
Australia
Location: Tolmie

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 10 time(s) in 10 post(s)
HK1837 If your thinking of going HD with the Hk running gear i'm still looking for an exhaust for my Hk panel van.
HK1837 Offline
#15 Posted : Monday, 29 July 2019 8:58:45 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 13,036

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 163 time(s) in 161 post(s)
It is one thing I want to keep as it is off a car that got parked in the 80’s.
You are probably better with a new system rather than a 50+ year old setup. These guys make the whole lot pretty cheap, this bit it the expensive bit:

https://www.ebay.com.au/.../113773281178?nav=SEARCH

I’d buy one of their dual replica systems though. Not perfect replica but good enough.

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Sandaro Offline
#16 Posted : Tuesday, 30 July 2019 9:39:27 AM(UTC)
Sandaro

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 115

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 9 time(s) in 9 post(s)
Everyone has hit on what makes a car desireable. Memories of family owned vehicles, seeing them race are big factors. For me style of the vehicle (for me love of panelvans or coupes) others Utes (WB springs to mind) is a major factor. Scarcity drives up prices of course, old economies of supply and demand. As HK said with the amount of then undesireables wrecked in the 80s and 90s the ones left become more coveted, so even standard sedans are now special (no FE-EK pun intended).


Then there are those that purely see them as a tax free investment. Being someone who still enjoys driving my old beasts I hate the fact that the driven up values have effectively driven a lot of old cars off the road and that cars are locked away perhaps not seeing he light of day for years at a time.


I noticed around the early 2000's a resurgence in the interest in the old Monaros and Sandman which I believe was in part due to the then release of the Monaro prototype and Maloo Sandman and the hype associated with that in the media. I remember a lot more personal interest in my cars from kids/early 20 year olds where there had previously been none.

Edited by user Tuesday, 30 July 2019 9:40:52 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#17 Posted : Tuesday, 30 July 2019 9:59:18 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 13,036

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 163 time(s) in 161 post(s)
I have a feeling also that there has been some money laundering going on at stages too, which goes somewhat to explaining the staggering prices paid at times for certain GT’s and the like.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
castellan Offline
#18 Posted : Tuesday, 30 July 2019 10:35:00 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,325

Thanks: 12 times
Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 11 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
I did actually own a TA Torana. I needed a car to get me to TAFE 4 nights a week and wanted a small car that I knew would be there when I came out.

Irony is the TA got stolen, found 400m from the TAFE I was going to that night.

I saw it go around the clock 3 times in the 5 years that I owned it. It had many short comings, but as a transport it was ok. (never want to own another though)


Was it the Big block 1760 4 or the small block 1300 4 high compression or low is the question.

I remember back in 1981 a mate that was high tailing it back and forth past my place in a TA big block 1760 4sp, I thought what's going on here, is another clown looking for a challenge or what and then he rolls on in my drive and took me for a blast showing me the awesome power of the beast, it was a mates of his car. that's the only 4cyl Torana I can remember being in.

I asked him about that car about a year ago and his response was, that piece of shit ! he had a 1976 Gemini in Melbourne that he gave the same response to.

When asking people about their cars that they have owned it's interesting as to their opinion of them, or what they thought about my cars, that mate loved my 253 auto HG Premier back in the day maybe it was because his dad had a HT Premier 186 manual from new and held on to it for years.

My Mum had a HR Special sedan 186 auto from new for 10 years, do I like them ? or would I want one no ! but my brothers youngest about 15 years ago said that he loved the look of them and I nearly fell over backwards thinking why would he want shit like that for. my mums was a rust bucket at 10yo. I asked my dad why did he buy the HR and not the XR Falcon and he said that he liked the look of it better than the XR Falcon, but the dealer said that the new model HK was not coming out for a year or so yet and that was 8-1967, or dad would of held back for the HK coming out. and he had a HK wagon 186 auto for about year himself and a HD P Van before that.

Myself I think my 5.0L 4sp HX Sandman P Van was what I liked the best or the 6sp VY SS ute, I would still like to have them, I don't miss my LH SLR 5000 really.
Warren Turnbull Offline
#19 Posted : Tuesday, 30 July 2019 7:30:43 PM(UTC)
Warren Turnbull

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered, Veteran
Joined: 10/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,286

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 14 time(s) in 14 post(s)
Mine was the mighty 1300, high compression, 4 speed 4 door, white over silver with ash trim. It was a good car in its day, but by today's standard you would not own one unless you had very sentimental value. In saying that there are people out there restoring HB Toranas.

Each to their own and good on them. (not everyone wants to own a HK GTS 327 or a V8 for that matter)
castellan Offline
#20 Posted : Wednesday, 31 July 2019 11:25:58 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,325

Thanks: 12 times
Was thanked: 12 time(s) in 11 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Mine was the mighty 1300, high compression, 4 speed 4 door, white over silver with ash trim. It was a good car in its day, but by today's standard you would not own one unless you had very sentimental value. In saying that there are people out there restoring HB Toranas.

Each to their own and good on them. (not everyone wants to own a HK GTS 327 or a V8 for that matter)


True.

Got a HB up the bush from me siting their 20 years or more, some stolen cars end up their. I have thought of jus walking back with the diff housing, just to show it off, for bragging rights.

Boy 300.000km that's not bad, never blew a diff ? or 4sp.

I know a woman who has a FC that her dad owned from new and it's in top condition like new, I admire that.

Seen many people with just some old car in sheds and I have forgot of how many on farms that they just would not sell for any amount of money, but just to see them just rust away to nothing, I hate that.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
2 Pages12>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF | YAF © 2003-2019, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.399 seconds.