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castellan Offline
#21 Posted : Friday, 20 September 2019 2:10:45 PM(UTC)
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The Holden red 130 is for Asian laws I believe, as anything over 2.2L comes more rego tax at the time and 138 goes just over 2.2L I think and maybe when we got the big grey 138, Asia only got a 132.5ci version maybe ?

The reason for a 130 red comes across as just a stupid thing to do otherwise.

But come to think of it a 0.060 over 138 is a 144 and most likely a 130 would go out to a 144 I would think, oh the power haha !
HK1837 Offline
#22 Posted : Friday, 20 September 2019 2:20:39 PM(UTC)
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Yes, 130 was to stay under Asian 2.2 or 2.25L. Rego jumped massively after that. This was for Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia etc.

It changed to 2.5L during HJ as the 130 was replaced by the 138 during HJ. When I was in Malaysia about 5-6 years ago all their D4D Toyota engines were 2.5L for the same reason. This is why I think all the Nissan and Mitsubishi hand grenades are 2.5L and below now.
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greghqtonner Offline
#23 Posted : Tuesday, 22 December 2020 5:21:36 PM(UTC)
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is it typical that the red 202 threw the top off number 5 ?
HK1837 Offline
#24 Posted : Tuesday, 22 December 2020 6:17:07 PM(UTC)
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Old wives tale.
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Premier 350 Offline
#25 Posted : Thursday, 24 December 2020 12:46:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: greghqtonner Go to Quoted Post
is it typical that the red 202 threw the top off number 5 ?

Mine did. As an apprentice I remember more #5 failures than other cylinders. That's purely anecdotal observations from a much younger me.

Attn camry drivers. The accelerator is the skinny pedal on the right.
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greghqtonner on 24/12/2020(UTC)
Oily Offline
#26 Posted : Thursday, 24 December 2020 7:48:49 AM(UTC)
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2 and 5 my side of the black stump also.but definitely only in full size vehicles never toranas no matter what the abuse or neglect they got, which was also a riddle.
People tried to explain it away as conrod angularity. But more likely the shorter pin to deck height and design vs dollars. Was the culprit.
Considering they made hundreds of thousands of HQs the amount we saw was possibly minute as a percentage.
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greghqtonner on 24/12/2020(UTC)
HK1837 Offline
#27 Posted : Thursday, 24 December 2020 9:24:19 AM(UTC)
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I read years ago it was a problem with very early 202 and was rectified and never a problem again. Hence the old wives tale comment. Just became an urban myth / Chinese whisper thing. Like a PhaseIII being the fastest 4 door in the world. I can’t remember the specifics but there is a GMH service notice about it if I remember correctly.
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Smitty2 Offline
#28 Posted : Thursday, 24 December 2020 1:30:01 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: greghqtonner Go to Quoted Post
is it typical that the red 202 threw the top off number 5 ?



not in my experience and I spent more than 10 years making red motors go hard and faster....

the 2 things I found was firstly
202 blocks cracked across the welsh plug (sand core) holes near the starter motor
... first indication was a dribble of coolant off the sump rail. All were prone to this and there was not much
you could do. Except not rev them to 7500 or 8000.

and they were prone to alternator issues. How so? No1 rod came thru the side of the block and knocked
the alternator off its bracket. Anxious Issue was oiling on No1 and the rod bearing would nip up. Goodbye conrod
as it went thru the block. Again not much one could except not rev the mothers too high (bit hard when in
Lane 2 at Calder Whistle )
Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
greghqtonner Offline
#29 Posted : Thursday, 24 December 2020 7:36:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: greghqtonner Go to Quoted Post
is it typical that the red 202 threw the top off number 5 ?



not in my experience and I spent more than 10 years making red motors go hard and faster....

the 2 things I found was firstly
202 blocks cracked across the welsh plug (sand core) holes near the starter motor
... first indication was a dribble of coolant off the sump rail. All were prone to this and there was not much
you could do. Except not rev them to 7500 or 8000.

and they were prone to alternator issues. How so? No1 rod came thru the side of the block and knocked
the alternator off its bracket. Anxious Issue was oiling on No1 and the rod bearing would nip up. Goodbye conrod
as it went thru the block. Again not much one could except not rev the mothers too high (bit hard when in
Lane 2 at Calder Whistle )


ok but i imagine that you werent making them go faster with standard production pistons in them ?
the reason i brought it up is im new to the forum thing and it was something that seemed to be happening a lot in stock early 202 s when kept at the wrong rev
was told it was to do with crank whipping ( non counterwieghted cranks ) and pistons that were made for picking the kids up from school
Just wanted to see if there was consensous
greghqtonner Offline
#30 Posted : Thursday, 24 December 2020 7:41:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: greghqtonner Go to Quoted Post
is it typical that the red 202 threw the top off number 5 ?



not in my experience and I spent more than 10 years making red motors go hard and faster....

the 2 things I found was firstly
202 blocks cracked across the welsh plug (sand core) holes near the starter motor
... first indication was a dribble of coolant off the sump rail. All were prone to this and there was not much
you could do. Except not rev them to 7500 or 8000.

and they were prone to alternator issues. How so? No1 rod came thru the side of the block and knocked
the alternator off its bracket. Anxious Issue was oiling on No1 and the rod bearing would nip up. Goodbye conrod
as it went thru the block. Again not much one could except not rev the mothers too high (bit hard when in
Lane 2 at Calder Whistle )


to follow up on that
your solution to the oiling problem ?
im in the process of building a black 3.3 and have over bored the oil ways etc external 5/8 oil feed to the pump

anything you can add to that for me ?
greghqtonner Offline
#31 Posted : Thursday, 24 December 2020 7:48:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Oily Go to Quoted Post
2 and 5 my side of the black stump also.but definitely only in full size vehicles never toranas no matter what the abuse or neglect they got, which was also a riddle.
People tried to explain it away as conrod angularity. But more likely the shorter pin to deck height and design vs dollars. Was the culprit.
Considering they made hundreds of thousands of HQs the amount we saw was possibly minute as a percentage.


yeah often wondered what the cost of a stock 3 5/8 piston was , i think too many expected to be able to rev it like a 179 or 186 and get away with it
greghqtonner Offline
#32 Posted : Thursday, 24 December 2020 7:54:48 PM(UTC)
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while im here , just wondering if any one else noticed how many BXUV 2 type strombergs ended up with the accellerator pump valve & and the power valve in each others bore ?
cant say it was factory stuff up but i noticed it al lot , allways look for it at any given opportunity , they go much better when you put em back in the right place
Smitty2 Offline
#33 Posted : Saturday, 26 December 2020 10:48:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: greghqtonner Go to Quoted Post



ok but i imagine that you werent making them go faster with standard production pistons in them ?
the reason i brought it up is im new to the forum thing and it was something that seemed to be happening a lot in stock early 202 s when kept at the wrong rev
was told it was to do with crank whipping ( non counterwieghted cranks ) and pistons that were made for picking the kids up from school
Just wanted to see if there was consensous


custom forged pistons were the go.. with custom valve relief heads (as I was running an angle cut head with 308 valves)

you ask about cranks.. the later 'blue' XT5 style counter weighted crank is better than the early 202 cranks
both from nodular iron.. the XT5 jobbie never had a problem with seeing 7500 (and they balance up nicer, .no mallory)
plus with a dowelled steel flywheel and a MF tractor balancer, the bottom end was nice, no fretting or galling on the bearings
and no cap walking either

and you also ask about the oiling solution to the No1 issue? ... external oil oil lines were what Mr Tate (yeah him) installed to fix that
to both Nos 1 and 6. Alternators were safe after that Dancing



Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
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greghqtonner on 27/12/2020(UTC)
Warren Turnbull Offline
#34 Posted : Saturday, 26 December 2020 11:18:26 AM(UTC)
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Purchased as HZ with it original 202 and it had thrown number 5 out the side. But once again, not too common compared to how many they made.
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greghqtonner on 27/12/2020(UTC)
greghqtonner Offline
#35 Posted : Sunday, 27 December 2020 9:22:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Purchased as HZ with it original 202 and it had thrown number 5 out the side. But once again, not too common compared to how many they made.


yeah , thanks for that , heard it several times when i was younger , some just left the crown at the top of the bore and kept going , i knew people who took out the 202 and put a rebuilt 186 back in instead , ive heard different opinions over the years , taking advantage of the forum thing to gather more info .
Like you said , on real numbers its not that common , but when you go looking for reasons that certain engines have particular failures so you can eliminate them, its good to get everyones take on it .
Like ive said before , i think most of it these incidents were the result of the cheapest pistons that could be sourced , easily solved !
Oiling problems , i once read that during development of Bathurst Toranas they found that there was not enough oil return at full noise , easily solved by bigger baffled oil pan and pollished oil return surfaces ( bugger all clearence where push rods pass through top surface of cylinder head isnt a good way to start )
Any ones opinions on oil pressure and pump volume would be appreciated ! ive been told that higher volume creates unwanted heat in the oil when too much is bypassed !
castellan Offline
#36 Posted : Monday, 28 December 2020 12:16:13 PM(UTC)
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I have seen stock 202 pistons do good service road driven bloody fast Torana's fully balanced and revved to 7000RPM, never seen a stock red piston 6 ever rev past 7000RPM you need thin rings to go past that, as the stock wide rings can not hold pressure past 7000RPM.

I think the split blocks in the 202 red were due to pulling 7000RPM was common, maybe more to do with the 6200 to 6400RPM part where the engine harmonics had a spack attack and that the mains bolts are a bit wider apart than the 186, so maybe more stress is put on the block, also the red 202 blocks without the strengthening ribs down near the oil filter may let the block twist just that touch more.
So with the block try's to do is twist from the front pass side and maybe the engine mount when it hits the stopper this may add to a touch more twist to the engine. seen this split water jacket 202 block in a LH Torana, I can not remember if the engine mounts are like in the HQ's with the holder clip that stops them from coming a drift like in the earlier models.

I think that cracked top of pistons is due to pinging mainly, that just hammers them.

My father in law had a HZ 202 auto and he complains that it was always burning out valves, he drives slow and mainly short trips, but a mate still has his HZ 202 auto 240.000km up and is fine rocker cover never been lifted and he is the 2ed owner for more than 20 years easy now.
I had a stock HQ 202 manual back in 1982 and flogged the p and pick handles out of that and it had 98.000miles up engine still fine and rocker cover never been lifted. the bloke who bought it claimed to me that it was a freak motor that it went so well.
I believe that burnt valves are due to the engine running too lean.

You will of come across Many who claimed the 202 red was crap, but the fact is that many of them were made and the main problem was that the average owner did not service their cars well and radiators would be Roo Ted for years before they were replaced, many so called mechanics were morons as well, even in the 80's you would get back moronic replies like well if it's over heating just do not drive so hard ? it all goes back to the days of old were one would skimp on everything as much as you could to get by and anything past that mentality just went over their head in general, a car was just only seen as transport like a hat cart. or if you had a fast car you were regarded as an enemy and if you road a bike well you were called a temporary Australian, that's how they seen it, the morons had their head that far up their arse that it was astounding, sure it was true of fools in general tho.

Dropping of valves mainly has to do with collets being shoddy quality or a engine that got to hot and the valve springs were shot, I believe a weak spring shimmy's and this give the collets more of a hiding, so a stock good red spring starts this shimmy dance over 4600RPM and a shot one could be anything. Std spring gives valve bounce at 5000 and can got to 5500 for a short wile but if you keep it at 5500 after a while it goes down to 5000RPM due to the shimmy effect going to town.
A head of the valve can come off due to many reasons.
As to doing big ends that's because of crap quality rod bolts, they flex and 202 has a longed stroke giving more pressure on them so they end up hammering the bearings.
High HP and revving 202's one has to inspect the block quality and it's oil gallery's.
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greghqtonner on 28/12/2020(UTC)
greghqtonner Offline
#37 Posted : Monday, 28 December 2020 3:51:10 PM(UTC)
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thanks for that input , im particularly interested in the 6200 to 6400 harmonic phase , keep hearing about it , keep hearing people saying " dont stay in there and you'l be ok .
Im not going racing , just building the engine how i want it for my retirement ( HZ Wagon , black 3.3 vk efi manifold , Vialle LPG injection )
Maximum power from the injectors is rated at 280 horses ( id be extremely happy if i get that in a drivable car )
the VK manifold is said to be very good up to 5000 rpm ( was very impressed with that motor in the VK Calais )
i have done all the typical work ( resized rods with bigger bolts , screw in rocker studs , guide plates and roller rockers )
ACL hypers with thin rings etc
spent a lot of time polishing polishing oil return paths etc
would hate to kill it with a rod out the side
yeah , i heard all the " 202s are crap , so are Trimatics ! " bullshit when i was a lad , i said " Peter Brocks wasnt "
as ive said before , i think too many thought that a HQ kingswood should go like an XU1 and were dissapointed when it didnt !
if you reved the shit out of it and got away with it you were happy , if it spat you were sad !
ive seen them driven without mercy and survive but ive also seen cylinders crack at half stroke height

Edited by user Monday, 28 December 2020 4:00:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: more to say

HK1837 Offline
#38 Posted : Monday, 28 December 2020 4:01:11 PM(UTC)
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I’d just sell it and fit a standard injected 5.0L. Very easy conversion, fuel efficient and easy to fix. Will give you more power and torque than a 202 ever will plus will often come with a 4spd overdrive auto with lockup converter. Turns a HZ from a prehistoric car to something that drives semi-modern.
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greghqtonner on 28/12/2020(UTC)
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#39 Posted : Monday, 28 December 2020 4:37:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I’d just sell it and fit a standard injected 5.0L. Very easy conversion, fuel efficient and easy to fix. Will give you more power and torque than a 202 ever will plus will often come with a 4spd overdrive auto with lockup converter. Turns a HZ from a prehistoric car to something that drives semi-modern.


yeah ta for that , its more about building the motor i want and finding its best potential , i much prefer the handling with the six in the front rather than the eight and the room n the engine bay etc
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#40 Posted : Monday, 28 December 2020 6:46:33 PM(UTC)
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All I’m saying is if you are looking for performance in a HZ wagon it isn’t going to happen with a 202. Not unless it is forced induction and then you are talking serious $. Even building a 202 to rev over 6000rpm is going to cost, they simply aren’t designed for it. If you want a car to putt around, sure go for it. Just remember you are never going to get sufficient power to drive a HZ wagon in a way that a 6 is going to give you any handling advantage over a V8. Plus getting a worked 6 to comply with HZ emissions is going to be a challenge in itself.
The beauty of the injected V8 is is is basically a bolt in conversion, with most of the bits you need like speedo cable now available already made. The fuel system mods are essentially the same as a VK EFI conversion. And if you use a VR-VS engine you have full ECU control of the transmission, cruise control is easy and HZ power steering bolts straight onto the engine. Probably the biggest hurdle is mounting an A/C compressor. It’ll pass emissions easily, just needs cats. An EFI 5.0L standard will give you around 280-300hp in SAE gross terms. Come rebuild time with flat top pistons, mild cam and a simple ECU retune really wake up, but will have to run on 98. Standard they’ll give you good power out of even 91 octane fuel. You can even bolt the whole top end onto any 1969-1987 308/304 block.
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