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castellan Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, 22 January 2020 1:49:32 PM(UTC)
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As for looking at Holden's on could assume things about the models quality and so forth.
I for one claim that the HK-T G to be the best built quality of them all and from the HQ on this was a step back in some regards, just look at how you close the doors on a HK-T-G, well a HQ on does not close like that. no Falcon doors are as good.
I think that the panels on the HK-T-G were much better fitting.
The Back seat more comfortable in a HK-T-G than any other Holden.
I believe the HK-T-G to be quieter inside than a HQ and even the chrome is better than the HQ on, just look at the HK-T-G Premier door sills and no Ford has that quality.

Look at a LC-J Torana I can't say it's a good car at all really. look at it's opposition Datsun etc are a far better car.
I can't think of anything good about the LC-J Torana that stands out, but from the XU-1.

EK Automatic now even a woman can drive a car or maybe want to.
EJ Premier and bucket seats boy things are starting to be looking up some what.
look at the EH what's good about it ? or what was good back in the days, well the engine and a Automatic for the time and that their was a Premier to be had.
HD well X2 and disc brakes and nothing other stand out, still backwards 3sp manual rubbish.
HR 186s 4 speed that's it.
HK well now we have got a whole new era now with V8 Brougham, V8 Premier, V8 GTS Monaro's Air-con now starting to take off somewhat. 6 cyl nothing to talk about but at least a 3 speed syn manual now, that being a great leap in advancement for the era for the garden verity driver.
HQ nothing really.
HJ nothing.
HX headlight flasher advancement but shit full ADR27A is a killer.
HZ RTS
VB Commodore a advanced Car.
WB Statesman a world class Car.
VC Engine improvement.
VH nothing
VK new EFI 3.3L engine advancement.
VL 3.0L good engine and 5sp manual and 4sp auto.
VN Shit box V6 great EFI V8.
VP nothing
VR nothing but better looking.
VS V6 is good.
VT 5.7L was crap
VX IRS much better.
VY Best Holden ever all round.
VZ crap V6.

So what can others add to such cars that is your impression.
Dr Terry Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, 22 January 2020 2:12:08 PM(UTC)
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A little harsh.

EH engines didn't rate a mention.

HQ nothing ?? Much better disc brakes & ventilation system than HK/T/G. From a mechanics point of view, a much easier car to work on on many areas.

HJ finally got rid of antiquated accelerator linkages & went cable.

HX better instruments in base models

VR better dash & electronics.

My thoughts anyway.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Wednesday, 22 January 2020 2:13:25 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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HK1837 Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, 22 January 2020 3:13:24 PM(UTC)
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I've owned lots of them. The best one I ever had was a V2 CV8, hands down winner. Sure the VZ CV8 had more power but it was uglier. VFII V8 is always going to be a better car to drive though.

But there are lots of milestones along the way, and you can't really compare each against anything other than its contemporaries.

The biggest milestone car for me was the GTS327. So much better than any prior Holden and so far better than any of its local competition. It was the car that spawned both the XR GT and the GT-HO, neither would have existed if GMH hadn't planned to build (thus the XR GT) and actually built that car and wiped the floor of Fords at Bathurst 1968 (hence why the GT-HO was built).

I’m with Dr Terry on HQ. Whilst it’s suspension and steering setup was a leap backwards, it did introduce some pretty decent stuff for GMH. Like the beautiful TH400, ventilated front discs, integrated A/C, reliable power steering, retractable seatbelts, collapsible steering column. Plus the longer wheelbase Ute/Van/Wagon/sedan including the luxury LWB sedan. In addition the cab-chassis, and a proper “Premier” coupe in the LS rather than the HK-HG GTS sharing some Premier components. You can’t blame the HQ for its driving setup either, GMH showed how good it could have been with the HZ (same with UC vs LH). George Roberts has to take the blame for that and the LH too. He hated the GTS327.

Edited by user Wednesday, 22 January 2020 6:01:06 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Warren Turnbull Offline
#4 Posted : Wednesday, 22 January 2020 9:54:18 PM(UTC)
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Firtsly I think you have to take away terms like uglier as this has nothing to do with the benefits of the car, unless it was so ugly that no one would buy one.

What would probably be a better idea would be to start with the 48 then list improvements/adjustments to the FJ. And also if anything went backwards, say like HD becoming 2 speed auto instead of 3/4.

You could do say 48 to WB, HB to UC, TD to TG, VB to VF as separate lists.
wbute Offline
#5 Posted : Thursday, 23 January 2020 5:50:48 AM(UTC)
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Best ever Holden or best advancement of mechanical design?
Best ever is potentially just an opinion. I love the WB Kingswood ute but there was nothing best or advanced on it.
The Red 6 in EH would have to be the single biggest advancement in the 60’s. That motor went on to power most Holdens for nearly 20 years and was capable of going down the street or winning Bathurst. Plus it was dead set simple.
I don’t really think too many things these days advance cars. They are mostly passive safety features that really only add weight and complexity.
HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Thursday, 23 January 2020 8:02:36 AM(UTC)
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Should be TA to TG Warren! (or at least TX).

Not sure if the red 6 was the biggest Holden advancement of the 60’s but certainly one of the top 10 or so. I’d give it equal weighting to the V8. They’d be probably be something like (in no particular order):

Auto (EK).
Red 6 (EH).
Disc brakes (HD).
Replacement of King pins (HD).
V8 (HK) and local V8 (HT).
Coupe (HK).
4spd manual (HD/R).
Full synchro manual (as above).
Power steering (EJ?).
Aircon (HK).

I know GMH already had a lot of this stuff earlier in Australia in other product like Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Vauxhall etc. but not in Holden.
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castellan Offline
#7 Posted : Thursday, 23 January 2020 12:12:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Should be TA to TG Warren! (or at least TX).

Not sure if the red 6 was the biggest Holden advancement of the 60’s but certainly one of the top 10 or so. I’d give it equal weighting to the V8. They’d be probably be something like (in no particular order):

Auto (EK).
Red 6 (EH).
Disc brakes (HD).
Replacement of King pins (HD).
V8 (HK) and local V8 (HT).
Coupe (HK).
4spd manual (HD/R).
Full synchro manual (as above).
Power steering (EJ?).
Aircon (HK).

I know GMH already had a lot of this stuff earlier in Australia in other product like Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Vauxhall etc. but not in Holden.


4SP In HR only from 19/6/1967.

I was looking at a PB 1962 Vauxhall Cresta spec of late as I seen a real good one of late in a parking lot and I thought f that's the best looking one that I have ever seen and I seen a Mk2 Zephyr some years ago parked in the street and f did it look good, I know my uncle had a convertible one years ago and other uncle had a Mk3 Zodiac in black and 4sp it looked real good back in the days.

And I was thinking, Now you would know this, what month did we start making the 1968 Impala and Pontiac, I thought may of been as late as July 68. why I say that is because of the 327 engine only came into the HK 327 GTS in 9/8/1968 and the last of them engines end Dec 1968 and then go to the other 327 from Jan 1969, but with our Impala and Pontiac all have the early 327 in them to the end and they must of been making them in early 1969 or did they finish up in Dec 1968, not to mention I would think that the 327 for them came bolted up with automatic trans. and the HK 327 came with 4sp bolted up.
Not to mention the big cars got 327 with air-con option only in the last 1968 year models from Holden.
And we got HK air-con in 307 from the beginning ? 6 cyl I don't know if they got air-con in the HK optional.

As far as I am aware aircon was optional on all HK except GTS327 and 161. I think the only catch was it was only available on 307 with drum brakes until mid 1968-ish.

Edited by user Thursday, 23 January 2020 12:33:16 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, 23 January 2020 12:30:56 PM(UTC)
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February 1968 I think they started making the 1968 Pontic and Chevrolet. Most (possibly all) of the engines for these are cast and assembled in 1967. Most (probably all) of the CKD packs were made in 1967 and came here and were assembled as required. They kept assembling them until they ran out in 1970 afaik. The HK engines are not the same, different carby, sump/pickup, exhaust manifolds plus they were manual engines so had a flywheel and bellhousing. The first of the GTS327 engines were made in March 1968 and the rest of that lot on early April 1968. Another two batches were made in May and July 1968 which was the end of that engine. No more 4BBL 327's after July 1968. GMH needed more engines as they had to add more GTS327 into the schedule (and because of this cancel other planned production, mostly auto 307 probably Brougham) to be able to race at Bathurst in 1968, and once they entered the schedule they could be sold or grabbed for stock by dealers, which is what happened. So McKinnon built them a special batch of 4BBL low compression 327's for GMH to see out the end of HK.
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castellan Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, 23 January 2020 1:08:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Firtsly I think you have to take away terms like uglier as this has nothing to do with the benefits of the car, unless it was so ugly that no one would buy one.

What would probably be a better idea would be to start with the 48 then list improvements/adjustments to the FJ. And also if anything went backwards, say like HD becoming 2 speed auto instead of 3/4.

You could do say 48 to WB, HB to UC, TD to TG, VB to VF as separate lists.


I agree.

With the advancement of the EK auto coming to light, is one but then their is another advancement in this auto again in 4/1962 with a 4 stage type as the first was a 3 stage. buggered if I know how one is better than the other. I have only driven a EK around the paddock and it worked fine and went real well I was surprised.
As to the Powerglide 2sp auto I think that they worked fine in my HR and my sisters HK 186 Premer, HR was quicker with 13in wheels and being lighter, but a 307 V8 with 2.78 diff they were a slug to drive, sure a 307 with 3.36 diff ratio would be not a bad thing to drive when getting up it.
People who had the Hydromatic complain about it being unreliable is what I get back from them, but I have never heard anyone bag the Powerglide for being unreliable.

HB Torana well one may have to look at the offerings that were around in the day to class them cars.
The HB was the first Holden to be a 4cyl line and as to why they went down this track ? well you have a full sync 4sp box in a town runabout, more of a girls car and no to mention 3sp B/W automatic option. But look at the 1967 Cortina it's a much better car.

How about the 1949 Holden's vs Fords what have you got Ford made a better car. but the Holden was a more advanced car, but no V8.

The TD Gemini to TG was nothing to talk about but good little runabout, but the Ford Escort had it over them with the big 2.0L and the 1.6l Valiant Lancer or 1.6L Datsun's etc come into play.

I would say VB Commodore to VK is one chapter and the others are all EFI and this changes into another era.
Dr Terry Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, 23 January 2020 4:07:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

How about the 1949 Holden's vs Fords what have you got Ford made a better car. but the Holden was a more advanced car, but no V8.


You can't compare a 1949 Ford to a 1949 Holden. The Ford was a larger, more expensive car. The Ford was competing against the Chevrolet of the era.

I'm not so sure that the Holden was "more advanced" than the Ford, the 1949 model Ford was the first new clean sheet design since WWII had ended.

Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

The TD Gemini to TG was nothing to talk about but good little runabout, but the Ford Escort had it over them with the big 2.0L and the 1.6l Valiant Lancer or 1.6L Datsun's etc come into play.


The Gemini was near bullet-proof & was the biggest selling 4-cyl car on the Aussie market from 1977 until the Laser/Meteor started to built sales momentum around 1982/83. It was a very good earner for GM-H. Again the 2.0 Escort was a more expensive car, so you can't compare them. The Gemini was a better car all round than a 1.6 Escort with ADR27A anti-pollution gear. Ford had to release the 2.0 Pinto engine in the Escort because ADR27A turned the 1.6 Kent into a dog.

1600 Dattos had long dissappeared by this time & its replacement (the Stanza) was rubbish.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Thursday, 23 January 2020 4:09:32 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Smitty2 Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, 23 January 2020 7:07:49 PM(UTC)
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BEST Holden ever...???
best reason to start an argument that!

in 1953, the best was the 48/215 ( aka FX) sedan my old man bought coz I came along (his Austin 7 being outgrown)
I still have his original FX service manual.. and this got me involved in things auto, all from helping him on decokes

in 1970, I got an EH 179 manual sedan as my car (and the original 179 checkered badge was still there)
in 1972 I upgraded to a HD X2 manual.. with sports instruments, ball joint front end and disc brakes
and the bloody thing.. would not go faster than exactly 100mph (I always told myself...faulty speedo? ;) )

in 1974, I bought a mates HT GTS 350 manual Monaro.... scared me silly, shit brakes and double/triple declutch downshifts
but with a tank of Avgas Saturday nights were just an AWESOME experience. This had extractors, middle mufflers
removed and the 4 points of flame out the back from the zorst outlets were amazing. Still ..best Holden i have ever had!

in 1976, I traded the Munro (for $4large and I still cry) on a XU1 Torrie. All good til some clown in an F100 missed the middle
pedal and the Torrie was 4 ft shorter

Didn't matter as I was at GMH... and had a number of company cars to drive. First employee lease car was a HZ
Prem wagon with 308/M21 combo.. plus lots og goodies, best Holden I have ever had!

Too many to mention after that (some one-offs, hand builts etc) until 1985 when finances (GMH's that is)
said out.. and the list continues. I bought my last company car... Vk Berlina 234 pack with 308/M21 combo
LSD, alloys and with a factory sunroof (the only one). Had the hipo engine and went to HDT and
came back with lots of extra mumbo. Best Holden i have ever had...

and then VN/VR/VT/VX/VY models and

this continues up to 2015... with the purchase of the last V8 manual wagon that ever came out of
a Holden VAP, a HSV R8 Clubbie Tourer. Def the best Holden I have ever had.

Oh... and yes, I have the genuine service manual :)




my 2c

Edited by user Thursday, 23 January 2020 7:08:35 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Balfizar Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, 23 January 2020 11:37:35 PM(UTC)
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V5H engine in the VH commodore perhaps should rate a mention.
HK1837 Offline
#13 Posted : Friday, 24 January 2020 5:12:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Balfizar Go to Quoted Post
V5H engine in the VH commodore perhaps should rate a mention.


It is really just a VH version of the L34 engine in the end. Made for Group C Homologation if bits that couldn’t be changed. The sweet ones were those built for Group A especially VK.

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Warren Turnbull Offline
#14 Posted : Friday, 24 January 2020 10:18:28 AM(UTC)
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The HB becoming a Holden I believe is to do with the re organising of the dealer network. In the mid 60s you had Holden Dealers that sold the car known as Holden (Standard, Special and premier) then you had Chevrolet, Pontiac, Bedford and Vauxhall dealers. Some dealers were multiple, so you would see signs like Holden and Chevrolet dealer.

The Vauxhall dealers were about to be shut, but the Viva was still selling well in its market, and GMH would have already had plans for a local update in 2 years time.

So the Viva was dropped and replaced with a "Holden" Torana, sold through Holden dealers. Had there been no plan for the LC Torana the Viva would have vanished like the Cresta.

Two years later Chevrolet and Pontiac dealers ceased with the release of the Brougham.

If the dealer network did not change in the 60s the Gemini would have probably been sold through Isuzu dealers which would have then taken on Camira. It may have also made it difficult for the transition from Holden to Commodore.
castellan Offline
#15 Posted : Friday, 24 January 2020 1:04:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

How about the 1949 Holden's vs Fords what have you got Ford made a better car. but the Holden was a more advanced car, but no V8.


You can't compare a 1949 Ford to a 1949 Holden. The Ford was a larger, more expensive car. The Ford was competing against the Chevrolet of the era.

I'm not so sure that the Holden was "more advanced" than the Ford, the 1949 model Ford was the first new clean sheet design since WWII had ended.

Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

The TD Gemini to TG was nothing to talk about but good little runabout, but the Ford Escort had it over them with the big 2.0L and the 1.6l Valiant Lancer or 1.6L Datsun's etc come into play.


The Gemini was near bullet-proof & was the biggest selling 4-cyl car on the Aussie market from 1977 until the Laser/Meteor started to built sales momentum around 1982/83. It was a very good earner for GM-H. Again the 2.0 Escort was a more expensive car, so you can't compare them. The Gemini was a better car all round than a 1.6 Escort with ADR27A anti-pollution gear. Ford had to release the 2.0 Pinto engine in the Escort because ADR27A turned the 1.6 Kent into a dog.

1600 Dattos had long dissappeared by this time & its replacement (the Stanza) was rubbish.

Dr Terry

I was looking at the Escort from the prospect that it had a 2.0L option as it being an Escort, talking about the 1977 such type, I hate the early Escorts all tho still better than a early toranas. I don't remember being in any Escort other than with the 2.0L a mate had a Ghia another a RS2000 with twin carbys and my wife with her RS2000, I did not think anything of them at the time, to me they were totally way to gutless for me to even bother drive.
I did drive a mates new TD Gemini around a new estate like it was a race track, very impressed handling as to my HG 253 Premier with a Monaro sway bar and Monaro GT130 and some Yokohama tyres that were really good. on a tight track like that the Gemini was king. but I did drive a TD from Bris to Bundy Shhh boy talk about gutless, they needed a 2.0L like some Country's got the option of bigger engines in them.
Oh I have been in a early Escort van d'oh! engine ?
Loved the Datsun 1600's and Stanza was good for what it was, I thought inside was an improvement but looked crap boxy outside.
castellan Offline
#16 Posted : Friday, 24 January 2020 1:15:15 PM(UTC)
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Oh as to the FX Holden being more advanced I mean as to it's tec advancement of body not being a chassis to lump around and the care was for the masses price range.
The 1949 Ford was a better car if you were in that price range for sure.

When I look back and see a FJ ute and then see the Ford ute, I think boy that tradesman must of been doing well to of bought that. my G Dad had a FX ute.
HK1837 Offline
#17 Posted : Friday, 24 January 2020 1:20:39 PM(UTC)
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All you had to do to make a Gemini go better was get a 1.8 or 2.0L engine out of a Jackeroo or Rodeo. Or better still a turbo one out of a Piazza.
But they were pretty good things for what you paid for them. And they were a far better car than the first of the GMH T cars, the TA. They came at various stages with 5spd manual, as a coupe, or 2 door van/wagon and had plenty of go for a 1600. GMH could have done far better with the U cars (4cyl LH-LX Torana and later LX Sunbird) by fitting 2.0L Isuzu engines rather than the Opel thing they had.
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castellan Offline
#18 Posted : Friday, 24 January 2020 1:47:01 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
BEST Holden ever...???
best reason to start an argument that!

in 1953, the best was the 48/215 ( aka FX) sedan my old man bought coz I came along (his Austin 7 being outgrown)
I still have his original FX service manual.. and this got me involved in things auto, all from helping him on decokes

in 1970, I got an EH 179 manual sedan as my car (and the original 179 checkered badge was still there)
in 1972 I upgraded to a HD X2 manual.. with sports instruments, ball joint front end and disc brakes
and the bloody thing.. would not go faster than exactly 100mph (I always told myself...faulty speedo? ;) )

in 1974, I bought a mates HT GTS 350 manual Monaro.... scared me silly, shit brakes and double/triple declutch downshifts
but with a tank of Avgas Saturday nights were just an AWESOME experience. This had extractors, middle mufflers
removed and the 4 points of flame out the back from the zorst outlets were amazing. Still ..best Holden i have ever had!

in 1976, I traded the Munro (for $4large and I still cry) on a XU1 Torrie. All good til some clown in an F100 missed the middle
pedal and the Torrie was 4 ft shorter

Didn't matter as I was at GMH... and had a number of company cars to drive. First employee lease car was a HZ
Prem wagon with 308/M21 combo.. plus lots og goodies, best Holden I have ever had!

Too many to mention after that (some one-offs, hand builts etc) until 1985 when finances (GMH's that is)
said out.. and the list continues. I bought my last company car... Vk Berlina 234 pack with 308/M21 combo
LSD, alloys and with a factory sunroof (the only one). Had the hipo engine and went to HDT and
came back with lots of extra mumbo. Best Holden i have ever had...

and then VN/VR/VT/VX/VY models and

this continues up to 2015... with the purchase of the last V8 manual wagon that ever came out of
a Holden VAP, a HSV R8 Clubbie Tourer. Def the best Holden I have ever had.

Oh... and yes, I have the genuine service manual :)




my 2c


HZ Premier wagon 5.0L 4sp Drool what colour, love the light blue with white roof with rack on top.

Yes HD X2 the first Holden with sports instruments.

My mum had a stock HR 186 auto 97mph only never see it go past that ever, it must of been a 1000 times that I seen that sitting in the back seat, mum had one speed and that was flat out.
I drove a brothers HR Wagon 161 Gem reco with twin Stromberg's speco floor shift 3sp and I had that bastard up to 115mph and had to back off as she started to float all over the road, I am sure it would of done more but that was enough for me, drum brakes and all so no thanks not for me. if I had to wash off speed from 115 I am sure by 50mph it would of been compleat brake fade and I know that feeling it's like sliding on ice.
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castellan Offline
#19 Posted : Friday, 24 January 2020 2:00:16 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
All you had to do to make a Gemini go better was get a 1.8 or 2.0L engine out of a Jackeroo or Rodeo. Or better still a turbo one out of a Piazza.
But they were pretty good things for what you paid for them. And they were a far better car than the first of the GMH T cars, the TA. They came at various stages with 5spd manual, as a coupe, or 2 door van/wagon and had plenty of go for a 1600. GMH could have done far better with the U cars (4cyl LH-LX Torana and later LX Sunbird) by fitting 2.0L Isuzu engines rather than the Opel thing they had.


I remember a Gemini turbo kit one was out TDC ? The 1.6L had low 8.3:1 compression from the TE on and only 8.7:1 before that so a Turbo with 8.3:1 would be ok.

I think that we got such low compression engines in the 1.6L because USA had unleaded from 1972 and Japan earlier than 1972. we could of got at least 9.7:1 with our Super fuel.
HK1837 Offline
#20 Posted : Friday, 24 January 2020 3:18:53 PM(UTC)
HK1837

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Yes, that is why the HQ L48 (350) was about 8.5:1 (compared to HT L48 10+:1) as for 1971 Chevrolet model year (8/70 onwards engine production) the engines were built for low lead fuel.
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