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wbute Offline
#81 Posted : Tuesday, 28 April 2020 11:19:10 AM(UTC)
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The 253 makes its most useable power (in the real world, not dyno world) around 3500 to 4000 rpm. Blue motors especially with the quadrajet just opening the secondaries. They are very torquey compared to a blue 6. So when you talk about them being flat out at 5500 and 180, they will never go any faster because the motor is redline and the power curve left at 4500 anyway. However, if you put a 3:08 diff in them, they are still have a heap of revs left at 180 and that is the difference. It’s diff ratio, not engine revs. Of course if you go stupid and put auto diff in it, they don’t have enough power to reach any faster than the 3:36.
That’s my theory, my WB is flat maggot at 175 and hates it, but my brothers with 3:08 will pull 200 on its ear. Both blue 253, 4 speed. That’s real world and through actual experience.
castellan Offline
#82 Posted : Tuesday, 28 April 2020 11:45:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
Hi Byron, I know you have raised the point before of Holden supplying vehicles for test in poor states of tune. Why would Holden do this, particularly pre supercar scare, you'd think the publicity of fast times (and at least some good pub banter) would have justified supplying good vehicles?


Not poor tune, just no optimal tune. All it takes is the Quadrajet's secondaries opening only 90% and there is your 20hp performance loss. They always did it (or similar) with the quickest cars from about HK. GM had a strict no racing policy, and GMH didn't want to be seen to be flaunting that with cars that were perceived to be too fast (Ford did not have this problem, they were fully involved in racing and win at all costs was the mantra). GMH's market share was too great to risk it from a PR perspective either. The HK was such a leap in performance too compared to what came before it. At the HK Press release and the drive day at Lang Lang the prior week (to meet magazine deadlines) it was all very orchestrated. The 307 Monaros were all auto with 2.78 rear axles (like all prior V8 HK), single exhaust etc, no manual cars. The GTS327's (most (possibly all) with 3.08 rear axles) were not allowed to be driven without a GMH staffer in the car and no-one was allowed to exceed the tacho's 5500rpm redline. All the magazine tests of the car were from these days. Only Rob Luck didn't believe it, and got a private car to test which was tuned right and had a 3.36 rear axle. That test is public record, 15.4s and 130mph top speed. GMH didn't want that publicity - they made money from vanilla cars, not the few hundred 327's. Winning with the car at Bathurst was what mattered, not on the street. When the HT came about, it was so much quicker again that every car presented to the Press for testing never made maximum power (simple Quadrajet adjustment), except for two of them (one HT by Mel Nichols and a HG with Peter Robinson) but proper tests were never done, only 0-100mph by Mel Nichols. The time it becomes really obvious is when the Press tested HQ 350 manual and auto GTS side by side, and the auto trounced the manual to 100mph, plus out accelerated it. Same engine, same exhaust, same 3.08 rear axle, and the auto being a power robbing TH400. The manual was again fiddled with, impossible not to be. They even commented on it. This continued too, with cars like the L34 not allowed to be tested by the Press plus it was so de-tuned as a road car it was not super fast anyway, until you made the few right mods it was designed for (cam, carby and exhaust). It is very rare also to find road tests anywhere of a 308/5.0L manual pre-pollution Holden car (HT to HJ) with dual exhaust (proper 2" dual exhaust, not the Torana pea shooters), as far as I know there was only that HJ GTS test I mentioned. After HJ the 5.0L performance dropped off significantly (lost about 34hp I think it was 250hp down to 216hp) so it didn't matter if they had dual exhaust standard. By the time Commodore and V5H came around the world had caught up and it wasn't so much an issue.

Just think about it though, if an A9X with a 216hp 5.0L and a 2.6 rear axle with 14" tyres can do a 16s flat quarter, imagine how fast a well tuned pre 6/76 LX SS hatchback or SLR5000 with the 250hp 5.0L, optional 3.08 rear axle and 13" tyres would be? If the 227hp LH SLR5000 with optional 3.08 rear axle could do a 14.9s quarter, what does an extra 23hp get you? My guess is 14.5 or thereabouts, that is quicker than a stock PhaseIII (but not a fair comparison as it is an optional rear axle, give the PhaseIII an optional 3.5 rear axle and it goes quicker again). Take the engine fan off and give it the A9X's electric fans and maybe even better?

I just remembered, they were even at it with HX and HZ. See that those HX and HZ manual 5.0L Press test Sandman vans I mentioned in the prior post also had optional 3.08 rear axles? This would slow them down dramatically than the standard car with 3.36. GMH were very careful with the whole image, every car in the press fleet was carefully chosen with certain options for various reasons. I have thousands of HQ to HZ’s recorded and L31, M21, GU4 is rarely seen and my guess is GMH didn’t build any for sale, the only ones built were ordered that way. An M21 with a 3.08 in a commercial is a horrible thing too, the magazine comments that the van pulled like a train but was heavy clutched (which a HX half cable clutch mech is) and hard to get off the line. Even with the 3.08 rear axle they say that it will still blow away most cars on the road from the lights, they timed it at 16.9s over the quarter mile. For what other reason than to take some edge off would they fit 3.08 rear axles to these Press test Sandmans? I’ll go looking, wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t more commonplace in earlier Holden.


I don't believe a 3.36 ratio diff is worthy of any 253 or 308 in anyway as it's too low geared.
A 253 gets a M20 box with a lower 1st gear that's fine with a 3.08 ratio
A 308 is totally fine with a 3.08 and M21 taking off, if I were to have my old 308 on idle and accidently dropped the clutch out it would take off, it would not stall that's for sure.
Look at the Falcon 250 they all have 2.92 ratio auto or manual.

I seen nothing wrong with my HG 253 auto having a 2.78 ratio and 3.08 would be a fine ratio but when the 2.78 blew up I put a 3.36 in it and it lacked performance with it, in fact and I hated that ratio in it as it did not perform well at all and that diff blew up snapping the casting where the main bolt caps go in, it was a diff out of a EH, so it may of been only the early cast iron and not the better stronger cast ones that came later on in the EH. that EH had a 149.
I thought that a 3.36 ration would make it really get up and go well but it was all rev and no action really, I could not find a 3.08 so I went back to a 2.78

What's interesting is not so much the 400M times it's the 500M and 600M times to 1000M times that really show another picture of the performance ability's of a road car. every thing has to be expressed not to mention KM/H from 60 on and then one can look to the ratios in the box and the diff to work out what you can do.

I am convinced that most motoring test drivers rev a stock 308 out too far in 1st and 2ed not to mention 3rd, 4000rpm is max in 1st 4500 is max in 2 and 3rd and any more and you end up not performing the times as well. you have to use the torque to your advantage and that's what good 308s have.

A manual 253 or 308 with 2.78 diff is no good to drive taking off with 14in wheels unless you are in a torana, I had a LH SL/R5000 2.78 and 14in wheels and M21 box but also 3.08 ratio diff and that is better all round, to go 3.36 would be stupid unless you had a big cam.
HK1837 Offline
#83 Posted : Tuesday, 28 April 2020 11:47:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Fairly sure the blue 253 had it well over the red 253 with its two barrel carb and points ignition. It was behind the times over all, along with the blue 6.
You can’t say which was best out of cars today, it was no different then. They all had for and against.
It is difficult to argue with the sales figures for the EH though, clearly Holden met what the market wanted in 63/64.


253 V8 nothing really changed apart from the 4BBL carby on the Blue. I do not think that points are a problem at all as to making power.
I remember every 253 Blue I had been in and I was thinking my HG 253 would have them and a mates stock VB 4.2L 4sp vs a VH SS 4.2L another mate owned, well the VB clearly went better to us all, we were shocked the VB owner was going to buy the VH SS 4sp in top nick it was and all, looked like new, but he hung on to the VB and put a worked 5.0L in it.

I have been surprised by stock 3.3L Blue that would give 253 a good run. the 3.3L auto could do 185KM/H in WB ute and VC Commodores and I never seen any stock 253 go over 185KM/H ever.
......


hmmm.. having driven (and owned, even bought the missus a VH 253 'Vacationer' manual wagon, dual zorst, LSD, 4WDs)
most of those you mention above does not jell with my experiences. Had VB 207 4.2 sports pack in a sedan, VC 119 3.3 M20 pack, VC124 etc,
a blue (VC or VH) 253 with the 4BBL Quaddie, twin exhaust and manual trans (sedan or wagon) was a quiet.. goodbye seeya weapon

A stock 3.3 blue XT5 give a blue 253 a run? bwahahahaaaaa .I had both, the 253 was so far in front just not funny. Revvy, torquey
my missus drove hers..1,2 then 4 and let it pull around town. Quick getaway from the lights, 3+ grand and you were gone.
The blue 6 with the 12 port head, Varajet and EI was good, vast improvement on the red 202.. better with a manual than Tri auto.
Pack the family in the VH253 wagon and head up to Mt Buller and larf as you pull out and pass the Rangeys on the way up.
185??? run a VH blue 253 to 6400rpm in top and you see numbers starting with 2...the needle hits the reset button :)
I found that it will go as fast as a 5.0 VH SS (NOT the HDT version) and get to 100 as quick at the std 5.0. Sure the M20 box
helps but tell me what std XT5 5.0 308 engine revs to 6400 ? Even the V5H versions struggle over 6000. I say that from
driving both.

The blue L36 XT5s I had were a good engine... but I do understand why GMH dropped them when VK came along

What I seen of stock Blue v8's and red is 5500RPM max I don't think the valve springs were up dated like the Blue 6 was as they could rev to 6200RPM but not all, some blue 6 were gutless but from new they went well, but as the years went by some lost a lot of power, I am talking 60.000km up and I have driven red 6 that were total gutless crap, one I test drove valve bounced at 4500. so I think that if you get them to hot the springs go to mush, one mate had a WB 1 tonne M22 and 4.44 diff that he bought 2yo and says it valve bounced at 5500.

What I think is with the stock Holden red spring type is that over 4500 on I think they start a harmonic phase a sort of shake shimmery thing happens and that would add more heat stress to the spring more over time. now you could rev the stock Holden out to 5500 but not on the highway as it will start to valve bounce at 5000rpm because you are sitting on such rev over a longer time and the spring starts to go into that phase.
Inside of the Valve spring is a harmonic devise some call it a spring but it's not a spring at all, it's flat coil and not round I believe that's what it's for, take it out and you may have 4500 valve bounce ?
I would say that Holden try and keep as least pressure on the cam as they can to save the cam and lifter life.

I will say that a lot of it comes down to gearing and the power and by looking at torque graph that we can see what is viable and what is not.
So a mates mum's VB SL Commodore with a 3.3L and auto could do 185KM/H in fact, now I did not believe him at all, but I seen it for myself as I was driving behind him and yep it was true, I looked all over that engine and not even the rocker cover had been lifted and another mates mum had a VB 3.3L auto std Commodore and it only did 165KM/H but they came with a 3.36 ration diff and the SL auto came with a 3.08 ratio, but the 3.36 ratio was quicker off the line but say from 40KM/H on the 3.08 one killed it everywhere it really performed well.


A red 6 at 185kmh? Impossible, unless it’s an XU1 or not standard. Very few red 6’s could even crack 100mph (161kmh). Only a few ever did it standard, manual GTS HK-HG and some LJ. But apart from that forget it.

Here is a few:

HK GTS Motor Manual October 1968. Top speed 102mph (164kmh) (will be 3.36)
HQ Monaro, 202 4spd Motor Manual Feb 1972. Top speed 94mph (151kmh) (will be 3.55)
LJ SL sedan 2850 4spd, Wheels Oct 1972. Top speed 97mph (156kmh) (will be 3.08)
LJ SL, 2850 auto, Modern Motor Jan 1973. Top speed 100mph (161kmh) (will be 2.78)
LJ SL sedan, 3310 4spd, SCW Sep 1973. Top speed 101mph (162.5kmh) (will be 3.08).

Lots of XU1 road tests and they vary between 3.36 and 3.08 and 186 or 202. The top speeds range between 120mph (193kmh) for LJ XU1 Wheels April 1972 (3.36 car) to 130mph (209kmh) in a Motor manual article in Sept 1977 (prob a 3.08 car)

The fastest UC I can find (with the same engine as VB) was Modern Motor May 1978, 3300 4spd manual (could be 3.36 or 3.08, suspect 3.08). Top speed 155kmh.
May 1976 test of 202 auto LX SL hatchback also got a top speed of 155kmh, this will be a 2.78 rear axle. Will be a pre ADR27A car too. Even 5.0L auto SS hatchbacks with 2.78 rea axle could only reach 188kmh.

Edited by user Tuesday, 28 April 2020 12:14:26 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#84 Posted : Tuesday, 28 April 2020 11:51:29 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
The 253 makes its most useable power (in the real world, not dyno world) around 3500 to 4000 rpm. Blue motors especially with the quadrajet just opening the secondaries. They are very torquey compared to a blue 6. So when you talk about them being flat out at 5500 and 180, they will never go any faster because the motor is redline and the power curve left at 4500 anyway. However, if you put a 3:08 diff in them, they are still have a heap of revs left at 180 and that is the difference. It’s diff ratio, not engine revs. Of course if you go stupid and put auto diff in it, they don’t have enough power to reach any faster than the 3:36.
That’s my theory, my WB is flat maggot at 175 and hates it, but my brothers with 3:08 will pull 200 on its ear. Both blue 253, 4 speed. That’s real world and through actual experience.


I agree with all that.
Must have a good 253 blue, dual exhaust for sure, we are talking about a standard factory engine hear ?
castellan Offline
#85 Posted : Tuesday, 28 April 2020 12:22:27 PM(UTC)
castellan

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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Fairly sure the blue 253 had it well over the red 253 with its two barrel carb and points ignition. It was behind the times over all, along with the blue 6.
You can’t say which was best out of cars today, it was no different then. They all had for and against.
It is difficult to argue with the sales figures for the EH though, clearly Holden met what the market wanted in 63/64.


253 V8 nothing really changed apart from the 4BBL carby on the Blue. I do not think that points are a problem at all as to making power.
I remember every 253 Blue I had been in and I was thinking my HG 253 would have them and a mates stock VB 4.2L 4sp vs a VH SS 4.2L another mate owned, well the VB clearly went better to us all, we were shocked the VB owner was going to buy the VH SS 4sp in top nick it was and all, looked like new, but he hung on to the VB and put a worked 5.0L in it.

I have been surprised by stock 3.3L Blue that would give 253 a good run. the 3.3L auto could do 185KM/H in WB ute and VC Commodores and I never seen any stock 253 go over 185KM/H ever.
......


hmmm.. having driven (and owned, even bought the missus a VH 253 'Vacationer' manual wagon, dual zorst, LSD, 4WDs)
most of those you mention above does not jell with my experiences. Had VB 207 4.2 sports pack in a sedan, VC 119 3.3 M20 pack, VC124 etc,
a blue (VC or VH) 253 with the 4BBL Quaddie, twin exhaust and manual trans (sedan or wagon) was a quiet.. goodbye seeya weapon

A stock 3.3 blue XT5 give a blue 253 a run? bwahahahaaaaa .I had both, the 253 was so far in front just not funny. Revvy, torquey
my missus drove hers..1,2 then 4 and let it pull around town. Quick getaway from the lights, 3+ grand and you were gone.
The blue 6 with the 12 port head, Varajet and EI was good, vast improvement on the red 202.. better with a manual than Tri auto.
Pack the family in the VH253 wagon and head up to Mt Buller and larf as you pull out and pass the Rangeys on the way up.
185??? run a VH blue 253 to 6400rpm in top and you see numbers starting with 2...the needle hits the reset button :)
I found that it will go as fast as a 5.0 VH SS (NOT the HDT version) and get to 100 as quick at the std 5.0. Sure the M20 box
helps but tell me what std XT5 5.0 308 engine revs to 6400 ? Even the V5H versions struggle over 6000. I say that from
driving both.

The blue L36 XT5s I had were a good engine... but I do understand why GMH dropped them when VK came along

What I seen of stock Blue v8's and red is 5500RPM max I don't think the valve springs were up dated like the Blue 6 was as they could rev to 6200RPM but not all, some blue 6 were gutless but from new they went well, but as the years went by some lost a lot of power, I am talking 60.000km up and I have driven red 6 that were total gutless crap, one I test drove valve bounced at 4500. so I think that if you get them to hot the springs go to mush, one mate had a WB 1 tonne M22 and 4.44 diff that he bought 2yo and says it valve bounced at 5500.

What I think is with the stock Holden red spring type is that over 4500 on I think they start a harmonic phase a sort of shake shimmery thing happens and that would add more heat stress to the spring more over time. now you could rev the stock Holden out to 5500 but not on the highway as it will start to valve bounce at 5000rpm because you are sitting on such rev over a longer time and the spring starts to go into that phase.
Inside of the Valve spring is a harmonic devise some call it a spring but it's not a spring at all, it's flat coil and not round I believe that's what it's for, take it out and you may have 4500 valve bounce ?
I would say that Holden try and keep as least pressure on the cam as they can to save the cam and lifter life.

I will say that a lot of it comes down to gearing and the power and by looking at torque graph that we can see what is viable and what is not.
So a mates mum's VB SL Commodore with a 3.3L and auto could do 185KM/H in fact, now I did not believe him at all, but I seen it for myself as I was driving behind him and yep it was true, I looked all over that engine and not even the rocker cover had been lifted and another mates mum had a VB 3.3L auto std Commodore and it only did 165KM/H but they came with a 3.36 ration diff and the SL auto came with a 3.08 ratio, but the 3.36 ratio was quicker off the line but say from 40KM/H on the 3.08 one killed it everywhere it really performed well.


A red 6 at 185kmh? Impossible, unless it’s an XU1 or not standard. Very few red 6’s could even crack 100mph (160kmh). Only a few ever did it standard, manual GTS HK-HG and some 202 LJ. But apart from that forget it.



I flat refused to believe it myself and so did the other mate who's mums base VB 3.3L auto, that mate always drove flat out everywhere and I have been in him mums car with him driving it for miles and miles 165KM/H flat, so when the other mate said 185KM/H did not believe him at all.
Now one night I was driving behind that 3.3L auto SL VB and 185KM/H it was over 40KM drive all the way. and then one day that mate who did not believe the 185KM/H claim he had a worked 308 put in his VB Commodore and he put a bet on it, that he would give the 3.3L a head start to the next town and what he did was let him get so far ahead that I said you better put you foot into it and he just smiled with out a worry and sort of worked out to pass him on one big straight and blow the doors off him, well that was the plan, but he started getting real worried, I still remember the look on his face, where is he ! and we only passed him about 4km out of the next town.
I thought for sure that this 3.3L had a small cam and a head job, but no !

And then a builder came to pick me up to take me to work in the next town as my M21 box was rooted and he had a new WB 3.3L auto Kingswood ute and he sat on 185KM/H, I was impressed how well it went, normally a 202 and auto is rubbish and gutless as. that was my first 3.3L Blue motor I had been in. and a mate had a VC 3.3L 4sp with extractors and dual exhaust hanging out chevy style behind the rear wheels and it could only do 185KM/H I don't know the diff ration but 3.36 I would think.
castellan Offline
#86 Posted : Tuesday, 28 April 2020 12:28:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
Fairly sure the blue 253 had it well over the red 253 with its two barrel carb and points ignition. It was behind the times over all, along with the blue 6.
You can’t say which was best out of cars today, it was no different then. They all had for and against.
It is difficult to argue with the sales figures for the EH though, clearly Holden met what the market wanted in 63/64.


253 V8 nothing really changed apart from the 4BBL carby on the Blue. I do not think that points are a problem at all as to making power.
I remember every 253 Blue I had been in and I was thinking my HG 253 would have them and a mates stock VB 4.2L 4sp vs a VH SS 4.2L another mate owned, well the VB clearly went better to us all, we were shocked the VB owner was going to buy the VH SS 4sp in top nick it was and all, looked like new, but he hung on to the VB and put a worked 5.0L in it.

I have been surprised by stock 3.3L Blue that would give 253 a good run. the 3.3L auto could do 185KM/H in WB ute and VC Commodores and I never seen any stock 253 go over 185KM/H ever.
......


hmmm.. having driven (and owned, even bought the missus a VH 253 'Vacationer' manual wagon, dual zorst, LSD, 4WDs)
most of those you mention above does not jell with my experiences. Had VB 207 4.2 sports pack in a sedan, VC 119 3.3 M20 pack, VC124 etc,
a blue (VC or VH) 253 with the 4BBL Quaddie, twin exhaust and manual trans (sedan or wagon) was a quiet.. goodbye seeya weapon

A stock 3.3 blue XT5 give a blue 253 a run? bwahahahaaaaa .I had both, the 253 was so far in front just not funny. Revvy, torquey
my missus drove hers..1,2 then 4 and let it pull around town. Quick getaway from the lights, 3+ grand and you were gone.
The blue 6 with the 12 port head, Varajet and EI was good, vast improvement on the red 202.. better with a manual than Tri auto.
Pack the family in the VH253 wagon and head up to Mt Buller and larf as you pull out and pass the Rangeys on the way up.
185??? run a VH blue 253 to 6400rpm in top and you see numbers starting with 2...the needle hits the reset button :)
I found that it will go as fast as a 5.0 VH SS (NOT the HDT version) and get to 100 as quick at the std 5.0. Sure the M20 box
helps but tell me what std XT5 5.0 308 engine revs to 6400 ? Even the V5H versions struggle over 6000. I say that from
driving both.

The blue L36 XT5s I had were a good engine... but I do understand why GMH dropped them when VK came along

What I seen of stock Blue v8's and red is 5500RPM max I don't think the valve springs were up dated like the Blue 6 was as they could rev to 6200RPM but not all, some blue 6 were gutless but from new they went well, but as the years went by some lost a lot of power, I am talking 60.000km up and I have driven red 6 that were total gutless crap, one I test drove valve bounced at 4500. so I think that if you get them to hot the springs go to mush, one mate had a WB 1 tonne M22 and 4.44 diff that he bought 2yo and says it valve bounced at 5500.

What I think is with the stock Holden red spring type is that over 4500 on I think they start a harmonic phase a sort of shake shimmery thing happens and that would add more heat stress to the spring more over time. now you could rev the stock Holden out to 5500 but not on the highway as it will start to valve bounce at 5000rpm because you are sitting on such rev over a longer time and the spring starts to go into that phase.
Inside of the Valve spring is a harmonic devise some call it a spring but it's not a spring at all, it's flat coil and not round I believe that's what it's for, take it out and you may have 4500 valve bounce ?
I would say that Holden try and keep as least pressure on the cam as they can to save the cam and lifter life.

I will say that a lot of it comes down to gearing and the power and by looking at torque graph that we can see what is viable and what is not.
So a mates mum's VB SL Commodore with a 3.3L and auto could do 185KM/H in fact, now I did not believe him at all, but I seen it for myself as I was driving behind him and yep it was true, I looked all over that engine and not even the rocker cover had been lifted and another mates mum had a VB 3.3L auto std Commodore and it only did 165KM/H but they came with a 3.36 ration diff and the SL auto came with a 3.08 ratio, but the 3.36 ratio was quicker off the line but say from 40KM/H on the 3.08 one killed it everywhere it really performed well.


A red 6 at 185kmh? Impossible, unless it’s an XU1 or not standard. Very few red 6’s could even crack 100mph (161kmh). Only a few ever did it standard, manual GTS HK-HG and some LJ. But apart from that forget it.

Here is a few:

HK GTS Motor Manual October 1968. Top speed 102mph (164kmh) (will be 3.36)
HQ Monaro, 202 4spd Motor Manual Feb 1972. Top speed 94mph (151kmh) (will be 3.55)
LJ SL sedan 2850 4spd, Wheels Oct 1972. Top speed 97mph (156kmh) (will be 3.08)
LJ SL, 2850 auto, Modern Motor Jan 1973. Top speed 100mph (161kmh) (will be 2.78)
LJ SL sedan, 3310 4spd, SCW Sep 1973. Top speed 101mph (162.5kmh) (will be 3.08).

Lots of XU1 road tests and they vary between 3.36 and 3.08 and 186 or 202. The top speeds range between 120mph (193kmh) for LJ XU1 Wheels April 1972 (3.36 car) to 130mph (209kmh) in a Motor manual article in Sept 1977 (prob a 3.08 car)

The fastest UC I can find (with the same engine as VB) was Modern Motor May 1978, 3300 4spd manual (could be 3.36 or 3.08, suspect 3.08). Top speed 155kmh.
May 1976 test of 202 auto LX SL hatchback also got a top speed of 155kmh, this will be a 2.78 rear axle. Will be a pre ADR27A car too. Even 5.0L auto SS hatchbacks with 2.78 rea axle could only reach 188kmh.


Oh and one mate claimed that his UC SL Torana 3.3L 4sp did 185KM/H but I never seen that car as he smashed it before I knew him, he speaks some BS tho, maybe ? they may have a 3.08 diff.
HK1837 Offline
#87 Posted : Tuesday, 28 April 2020 1:14:47 PM(UTC)
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They often do but with 13” tyres, so equivalent roughly of 3.36 with 14” tyres. I still think there was some major speedo errors involved!

I can give you a few examples of my own too:

My 2/76 LX SL hatchback 3300 auto. It had a 2.78 rear axle and 160kmh speedo. Speedo was correct as I tested it. With extractors, 2.25" system and electronic ignition but otherwise dead stock with stock aircleaner it would do just over 160km/h. Once I built a new engine for it which was a balanced 202 with Yella Terra head, 30/70 cam, same exhaust and electronic ignition as before and 4BBL 390 Holley on a Cain inlet. It dynoed at 110hp at the rear wheels. With a 5sp manual and 3.08 Salisbury with 235/60/14 tyres it would barely get to 180kmh, probably 178. It had an SS dash in it by that stage. Speedo was corrected when dynoed.

My dad also bought a new WB van around 1982. It was a 3.3 4spd manual, which had a 3.55 rear axle. It went well compared to a HZ with red 6, but there is no way it'd have gone over about 155km/h. Simply not enough power to push it through the air.

Edited by user Tuesday, 28 April 2020 2:13:12 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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HK1837 Offline
#88 Posted : Tuesday, 28 April 2020 2:25:01 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
Hi Byron, I know you have raised the point before of Holden supplying vehicles for test in poor states of tune. Why would Holden do this, particularly pre supercar scare, you'd think the publicity of fast times (and at least some good pub banter) would have justified supplying good vehicles?


Not poor tune, just no optimal tune. All it takes is the Quadrajet's secondaries opening only 90% and there is your 20hp performance loss. They always did it (or similar) with the quickest cars from about HK. GM had a strict no racing policy, and GMH didn't want to be seen to be flaunting that with cars that were perceived to be too fast (Ford did not have this problem, they were fully involved in racing and win at all costs was the mantra). GMH's market share was too great to risk it from a PR perspective either. The HK was such a leap in performance too compared to what came before it. At the HK Press release and the drive day at Lang Lang the prior week (to meet magazine deadlines) it was all very orchestrated. The 307 Monaros were all auto with 2.78 rear axles (like all prior V8 HK), single exhaust etc, no manual cars. The GTS327's (most (possibly all) with 3.08 rear axles) were not allowed to be driven without a GMH staffer in the car and no-one was allowed to exceed the tacho's 5500rpm redline. All the magazine tests of the car were from these days. Only Rob Luck didn't believe it, and got a private car to test which was tuned right and had a 3.36 rear axle. That test is public record, 15.4s and 130mph top speed. GMH didn't want that publicity - they made money from vanilla cars, not the few hundred 327's. Winning with the car at Bathurst was what mattered, not on the street. When the HT came about, it was so much quicker again that every car presented to the Press for testing never made maximum power (simple Quadrajet adjustment), except for two of them (one HT by Mel Nichols and a HG with Peter Robinson) but proper tests were never done, only 0-100mph by Mel Nichols. The time it becomes really obvious is when the Press tested HQ 350 manual and auto GTS side by side, and the auto trounced the manual to 100mph, plus out accelerated it. Same engine, same exhaust, same 3.08 rear axle, and the auto being a power robbing TH400. The manual was again fiddled with, impossible not to be. They even commented on it. This continued too, with cars like the L34 not allowed to be tested by the Press plus it was so de-tuned as a road car it was not super fast anyway, until you made the few right mods it was designed for (cam, carby and exhaust). It is very rare also to find road tests anywhere of a 308/5.0L manual pre-pollution Holden car (HT to HJ) with dual exhaust (proper 2" dual exhaust, not the Torana pea shooters), as far as I know there was only that HJ GTS test I mentioned. After HJ the 5.0L performance dropped off significantly (lost about 34hp I think it was 250hp down to 216hp) so it didn't matter if they had dual exhaust standard. By the time Commodore and V5H came around the world had caught up and it wasn't so much an issue.

Just think about it though, if an A9X with a 216hp 5.0L and a 2.6 rear axle with 14" tyres can do a 16s flat quarter, imagine how fast a well tuned pre 6/76 LX SS hatchback or SLR5000 with the 250hp 5.0L, optional 3.08 rear axle and 13" tyres would be? If the 227hp LH SLR5000 with optional 3.08 rear axle could do a 14.9s quarter, what does an extra 23hp get you? My guess is 14.5 or thereabouts, that is quicker than a stock PhaseIII (but not a fair comparison as it is an optional rear axle, give the PhaseIII an optional 3.5 rear axle and it goes quicker again). Take the engine fan off and give it the A9X's electric fans and maybe even better?

I just remembered, they were even at it with HX and HZ. See that those HX and HZ manual 5.0L Press test Sandman vans I mentioned in the prior post also had optional 3.08 rear axles? This would slow them down dramatically than the standard car with 3.36. GMH were very careful with the whole image, every car in the press fleet was carefully chosen with certain options for various reasons. I have thousands of HQ to HZ’s recorded and L31, M21, GU4 is rarely seen and my guess is GMH didn’t build any for sale, the only ones built were ordered that way. An M21 with a 3.08 in a commercial is a horrible thing too, the magazine comments that the van pulled like a train but was heavy clutched (which a HX half cable clutch mech is) and hard to get off the line. Even with the 3.08 rear axle they say that it will still blow away most cars on the road from the lights, they timed it at 16.9s over the quarter mile. For what other reason than to take some edge off would they fit 3.08 rear axles to these Press test Sandmans? I’ll go looking, wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t more commonplace in earlier Holden.


I don't believe a 3.36 ratio diff is worthy of any 253 or 308 in anyway as it's too low geared.
A 253 gets a M20 box with a lower 1st gear that's fine with a 3.08 ratio
A 308 is totally fine with a 3.08 and M21 taking off, if I were to have my old 308 on idle and accidently dropped the clutch out it would take off, it would not stall that's for sure.
Look at the Falcon 250 they all have 2.92 ratio auto or manual.

I seen nothing wrong with my HG 253 auto having a 2.78 ratio and 3.08 would be a fine ratio but when the 2.78 blew up I put a 3.36 in it and it lacked performance with it, in fact and I hated that ratio in it as it did not perform well at all and that diff blew up snapping the casting where the main bolt caps go in, it was a diff out of a EH, so it may of been only the early cast iron and not the better stronger cast ones that came later on in the EH. that EH had a 149.
I thought that a 3.36 ration would make it really get up and go well but it was all rev and no action really, I could not find a 3.08 so I went back to a 2.78

What's interesting is not so much the 400M times it's the 500M and 600M times to 1000M times that really show another picture of the performance ability's of a road car. every thing has to be expressed not to mention KM/H from 60 on and then one can look to the ratios in the box and the diff to work out what you can do.

I am convinced that most motoring test drivers rev a stock 308 out too far in 1st and 2ed not to mention 3rd, 4000rpm is max in 1st 4500 is max in 2 and 3rd and any more and you end up not performing the times as well. you have to use the torque to your advantage and that's what good 308s have.

A manual 253 or 308 with 2.78 diff is no good to drive taking off with 14in wheels unless you are in a torana, I had a LH SL/R5000 2.78 and 14in wheels and M21 box but also 3.08 ratio diff and that is better all round, to go 3.36 would be stupid unless you had a big cam.


253 manual came with 3.08 standard up until the end of HJ except for cab-chassis. The 253 manual then came standard with 3.55 (like cab-chassis always did) until later in HZ changing to 3.36 except cab-chassis. Cab-chassis only ever came with 3.36 if it was a V8 fitted with factory A/C. About the only time you ever saw a HQ 253 with a 3.36 was in SS or if optioned with an M21 which a lot of HQ GTS sedans were. 308 manual always came standard with 3.36 as M21 and 3.08 rear axle is too tall for everyday use with 14" tyres. There are some 3.08 optioned examples but rare as they were a pig to drive (I owned a few, almost always changed to box out for an M20 or an auto).

HK-HG V8 banjo were nodular iron carriers mostly made by Borg Warner, the 6cyl ratios (3.36, 3.55 and 3.90) were standard grey iron cast by GMH. GMH started to make the V8 centres later on in the run, but all the LSD ones were Borg Warner.

Only the useless road testers did as you say. The good ones were often CAMS licenced race drivers like Bill Tuckey. Rob Luck and Mel Nichols were really good too. The really good journalists told you in the articles where the sweet shift spot was for best performance as they tried various ways to get the best use out of the car. Many times they even give you 0-100mph and 1/4 mile times on auto cars in drive and shifting manually. They found the HQ 350 auto performed best letting that beautiful TH400 do its thing.

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castellan Offline
#89 Posted : Thursday, 30 April 2020 3:17:22 PM(UTC)
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I thought that the nodular iron banjo came in with the 179 Manual EH.
HK1837 Offline
#90 Posted : Thursday, 30 April 2020 4:53:06 PM(UTC)
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The nodular centre is the long bolt one used in V8 in HK. It was Borg Warner made, but when 3.08 or 2.78 became available without LSD afaik they were a GMH made. The reason why HK 3.08 in GTS needed a special tailshaft was the only 3.08 banjo available was a V8 one, probably not worth getting a few 6cyl ones made, easier to do a special tailshaft in house I guess.

They may have had special nodular carriers made for EH but would have been from outside sources as GMH didn’t have a nodular foundry until about 1967.
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castellan Offline
#91 Posted : Friday, 1 May 2020 12:54:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
The nodular centre is the long bolt one used in V8 in HK. It was Borg Warner made, but when 3.08 or 2.78 became available without LSD afaik they were a GMH made. The reason why HK 3.08 in GTS needed a special tailshaft was the only 3.08 banjo available was a V8 one, probably not worth getting a few 6cyl ones made, easier to do a special tailshaft in house I guess.

They may have had special nodular carriers made for EH but would have been from outside sources as GMH didn’t have a nodular foundry until about 1967.


OK right you are.

I just thought because the mains just busted out of that 3.36 banjo that they were only cast iron, I just puled it out of a EH all in good nick and bolted it up, lasted 3 weeks I think and I hated it as it destroyed the whole car with that ratio, their was noting good about it, even tho I though it would be a fine ratio. but it made the car that crappy in performance that I was astounded.
I had many drag runes with a mate who had a stock XC 5.8L auto Hardtop with dual exhaust and they were neck and neck to 110mph, but with the 3.36 that XC would of killed my HG 253 easy.

I think my mums 202 auto 3.36 HJ had the long bolt type banjo and fine spline axles I think.
HK1837 Offline
#92 Posted : Friday, 1 May 2020 2:34:34 PM(UTC)
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Can't be, only 2.78 and 3.08 had the long bolt banjo. 3.36, 3.55 and 3.90 were the stud type. HJ banjo were all coarse spline. The first and only fine spline 6cyl until much later were those final LJ XU1. It wasn't until about 1977-ish that fine spline 6cyl banjo started to appear, and eventually all banjo and baby 10-bolt including Gemini were fine spline.

Edited by user Friday, 1 May 2020 2:35:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Sandaro Offline
#93 Posted : Friday, 1 May 2020 5:06:05 PM(UTC)
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I would like to know from an engineering point of view how fine spline is stronger than coarse spline. I know the reputation, just not the science behind it.

I have seen a far few broken diffs, and haven't seen the splines go.
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#94 Posted : Friday, 1 May 2020 5:35:36 PM(UTC)
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Hi Sandro,

As an Engineer my self, I would add up the volume of metal in each of the Course Spline & Fine Splines for say an inch of an axle going into them by the number of splines in each Spider Gear.
The Diff with the more Volume of Spline running on the axle has the strongest Spline.
Sandaro Offline
#95 Posted : Friday, 1 May 2020 9:08:41 PM(UTC)
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Sounds equal to me. Assuming equal peaks and troughs whether fine or coarse, so either narrow v or wide u, as you say over an inch, there is going to be the same amount of metal in an inch?
castellan Offline
#96 Posted : Saturday, 2 May 2020 1:13:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Can't be, only 2.78 and 3.08 had the long bolt banjo. 3.36, 3.55 and 3.90 were the stud type. HJ banjo were all coarse spline. The first and only fine spline 6cyl until much later were those final LJ XU1. It wasn't until about 1977-ish that fine spline 6cyl banjo started to appear, and eventually all banjo and baby 10-bolt including Gemini were fine spline.


Something I thought of, I may be wrong about it, but for some reason I thought that it did have the long bolt banjo but that was back in 1986 that I last looked at the housing. maybe it was a 3.08 never touched it.

My 1974-5 SL/R5000 had a fine spline 3.08 diff.
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#97 Posted : Saturday, 2 May 2020 1:30:26 PM(UTC)
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Yes, SLR5000 got a fine spline V8 banjo at some stage. Initially the V8 banjos in LH were coarse spline I think but changed to fine spline pretty quickly. By L34 release the normal V8 LH were fine spline from memory. It took until about 1977-ish for the 6cyl banjo to catch up.

Pretty rare to find an LH SLR5000 with a GU4 (3.08) rear axle, most were GU7 (2.78). The L34's that were fitted with a GU4 got a closer ratio gearbox so that 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall gearing (ie box ratio x rear axle ratio) was identical, only 4th differed due to both boxes being 1:1 top.
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#98 Posted : Saturday, 2 May 2020 1:44:20 PM(UTC)
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Technically they aren't fine splines, they are serrations.
castellan Offline
#99 Posted : Saturday, 2 May 2020 2:36:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Sandaro Go to Quoted Post
I would like to know from an engineering point of view how fine spline is stronger than coarse spline. I know the reputation, just not the science behind it.

I have seen a far few broken diffs, and haven't seen the splines go.


I have never seen the spline go myself, as in striped off, but my SL/R5000 did twist off at the spline just where the star gear sits as per usual even as a coarse spline do.

I drove my SL/R5000 with a broken axle from the lights at Gympie to the turn off to the Gateway bridge.
I heard and felt a bang and I thought a star tooth had gone, so I took it easy all that way and I could of fell over seeing that it was an axle. she had twisted in a way that shoved the axel hard into the star gear pinion, normally the axel just splits straight down but this went across sort of in two and I could not get the axle out of the LSD banjo with Hammer and screwdriver or small chisel.

I thought at the time, that fine spline Banjo were rare as hens teeth for my LH and I was changing the diff In a mates driveway, did not have time to take the diff down to be sorted out on a Saturday morning, so I swapped the diff for a 2.78 open and coarse spline axles and drove home that day. I should of keep the diff and fine spline and got that sorted later.
It was fine to drive with the 2.78 ratio and 235 tyres and 14in wheels.

So the axle she is like a Valiant front end spring but the Valiant does not have a spline, they twist so far and then build up fatigue on that point where they snap off.
So as to fine spline on an axle I would think that they were stronger at that point where they snap off and maybe that point where the star gear and the axle sit must move about somewhat a bit and then as the spline start to wear you can see that point being hammered away at, so a coarse spline would be worse over time I would think.

Not to mention why would Holden got from coarse to fine, it would cost more to do a fine spline.

I also wonder if you put a axel that's being doing duty on one side of the car and then you put that on the other side, so that it's twisting back the other way would that be a wrong thing to do, or maybe it's a good thing to do.

So you replace the bearings and say, here look at the spline she is got wear that way, so I will put them in opposite like now maybe that will give that critical point a better chance or because she has been twisted one way and then another that is now a bad thing to do.
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#100 Posted : Saturday, 2 May 2020 2:48:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Yes, SLR5000 got a fine spline V8 banjo at some stage. Initially the V8 banjos in LH were coarse spline I think but changed to fine spline pretty quickly. By L34 release the normal V8 LH were fine spline from memory. It took until about 1977-ish for the 6cyl banjo to catch up.

Pretty rare to find an LH SLR5000 with a GU4 (3.08) rear axle, most were GU7 (2.78). The L34's that were fitted with a GU4 got a closer ratio gearbox so that 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall gearing (ie box ratio x rear axle ratio) was identical, only 4th differed due to both boxes being 1:1 top.


Mine was L34 Guards and all but L31 engine code on the plate and Torana prefix Block, I can not remember the code for diff, but she had M21 on the plate. and a Holly 650DP and single point dizzy.
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