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munriman Offline
#1 Posted : Thursday, 4 March 2021 6:17:26 PM(UTC)
munriman

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I have purchased a Type 2 HK Sydney built and assembled GTS Monaro, the car has heavy duty sway bar, saginaw hump, bathurst tank, radius rods guard drilled only for 327 badges, however no tags or engine so only number I have is firewall. It has been sitting in a shed for 30 years and I have just started to strip back the 30 year old Picardy Red paint only to uncover black paint as original coat under the door handles which were not removed during sandblasting and on the front guards which were not sandblasted. The body was sandblasted and so far I have only found bare metal on most of the body because the blaster was very thorough. I have however found black overspray in the tops of the door cavity and rear quarter cavity. I am afraid to go too far as I am not sure if I am destroying a significant car. Tags were lost in the late 70's but the previous 2 owners as far back as 1984 only know the car as black, and being a QLD country car from 1984 to 1990 the owner knew the first owner who purchased the car in Sydney tells me the car was black when bought in Sydney. Any help on what I should be looking for would be helpful, the first owner is deceased with no family.
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#2 Posted : Thursday, 4 March 2021 7:05:27 PM(UTC)
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There is no such thing as a Type 2 HK Monaro. There was a second type 327 engine used in GTS327 starting in December 1968 but that is just the engine.
How did you determine for certain it was a GTS327? The stuff mentioned are indicators but no guarantee. I have bought HK’s before with all of the mentioned stuff and more but they were not GTS327’s. It could be but without tags and without the engine it is now only a HK coupe. I’ve got a few of them like that too, they once were V8 GTS’s but without tags they are just a Monaro body.

The black paint too could be original but could also be misleading as there is no 100% way to know for certain. What is under the black on the guards?
Is it a Pagewood car? What are the first two digits of its chassis number? HK51xxxSS for example.
Does it still have original diff housing or steering box or steering column that have date codes that match the timeframe of the remaining chassis number?
I wouldn’t worry too much about destroying any significance either. Without tags do as you wish to it, it’s best future value us probably as a modified car where tags have far less significance.
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munriman Offline
#3 Posted : Thursday, 4 March 2021 8:49:38 PM(UTC)
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Hi HK1837 thank you for the correction about type 1 and type 2 I am mistakenly making assumptions about my car possibly being a 327. Of course without engine and tags its just a Monaro, but I have spoken to owners 37 years back who knew the original purchaser and they have told me the original 327 engine was taken out of the car and put into another hot car they were racing. My car was used as a tow vehicle for drag cars and also raced at some stage which is evident with the still evident farm made tail shaft loop, unfortunately this colourful history is only hearsay and lost through the original owner being deceased.

I am assuming that if the car has the indicators as outlined in my first post namely the tunnel with the Saginaw pressing and Salisbury hump then it can only be one of two combinations when considering HK, either 327 4 speed or 307 4 speed, or are there other combinations?

Under the guards there seems to be the original primer then black, then a blue primer then black which looks like a second repaint then a yellow primer and then Picardy red which was painted in 1990. This is also on the doors.

Car is a Pagewood car HK53XXXSS. Yes still has original Salisbury diff housing, steering box and steering column I will investigate these to find the date codes.

I was just going to restore this car as you say without worrying about significance, but as I researched the previous owners, they all told me it was black. At first I didnt take much notice because all modified cars in the 70's and 80's were painted black but as I started stripping back the paint I started to wonder was this one of the original black cars as the evidence of the first black coat emerged. I will keep searching and documenting clues about this car and hopefully it may reveal more secrets.

Thank you for your knowledge and input.


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#4 Posted : Thursday, 4 March 2021 9:41:13 PM(UTC)
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If both the Salisbury pressing and the M21/M22 linkage clearance pressings are there and original then it is a V8 manual. Either can be faked too which is a remote possibility but does happen. A Salisbury pressing could also be a V8 auto GTS (or a 3.36 optioned V8 anything other than Brougham which is irrelevant other than the very remote possibility of it being an L30/M35/G88 optioned Monaro, the bulk of these were either 2.78 or 3.08 banjo though) and the linkage pressing can mean (also extremely rare) an M21 optioned 6cyl GTS or Monaro but in this case it would have a V8 banjo rear axle thus no hump. Unlike HQ you could not option a heavy duty rear axle in a 6cyl HK. So unless someone has welded one or the other in then it is a V8 manual.

Have you looked for the other V8 telltale signs and also for the GTS327 slight variances over a V8 manual? If someone has pulled a swiftly on it in the past some of them get missed as they are not well known. Not going to mention them on an open forum either for obvious reasons, but you will work them out if you don’t already know what to look for as they are mostly obvious with the real deal in front of you if you stand and look for long enough.

What colour primer under the black over the steel?

Will have to check where HK53...SS fits, not near my records at the moment. Probably 1969 though if recall correctly.

Note that black is never rocking horse poo rare on any Holden. It is probably the most common colour variation where it is not a regular colour. It is probably the most common non standard colour or non-fleet colour on any HK. Sure you’d count the number of black GTS327’s on one hand, and the number of black HK Monaro in total on all your fingers. But black will be common compared to most other non standard colours other than maybe a fleet colour or three. Still very rare compared to the standard six GTS colours though.

Edited by user Thursday, 4 March 2021 9:49:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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munriman Offline
#5 Posted : Friday, 5 March 2021 8:36:16 PM(UTC)
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Hi HK1837,

Most appreciate the background information, its quite the minefield distinguishing between the truth and Chinese whispers. I have owned 4 HK GTS Monaro's in my lifetime and it has never been a better time to be able to decipher the information to identify these cars. I remember even 10 years ago most people had little or no knowledge about the numbers and how they corresponded on these vehicles.

I am not aware of the differences between the 307 and 327 manual, I thought maybe just the sway bar, possibly the front springs and the drill holes for the 327 badges which doesn't mean much, my understanding is that almost anything could be optioned, as I know a base model or non GTS HK Monaro with a 307, 3 speed column shift and banjo diff, my assumption would be that you option a bathurst tank with any car that had a hump in the boot.

The primer under the black is paint is almost a white colour or light grey. This seems to be consistent on most of the patches I have rubbed back.

I was told my car is 1969 based on the body number, I think it may have been March or April.

You are totally correct on the black, I had a black EH original paint. I remember seeing Black FJ's, EJ's and other Holdens which were all original paint, but I never saw an original black HK Monaro but like you said there must have been a few.

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#6 Posted : Friday, 5 March 2021 8:45:49 PM(UTC)
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HK1837
my email is munriman0@gmail.com I can send you some photographs of the paint.
abi Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, 5 March 2021 9:48:55 PM(UTC)
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Sydney had a big dealer who regularly ordered black Monaros as special orders, I'm thinking Suttons but that could be wrong, they would have come from Pagewood. The Monaro Car Club Sydney had a member restoring a factory black GTS 327 back in the mid 1990s, this car may be it!
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#8 Posted : Saturday, 6 March 2021 8:16:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: munriman Go to Quoted Post
Hi HK1837,

Most appreciate the background information, its quite the minefield distinguishing between the truth and Chinese whispers. I have owned 4 HK GTS Monaro's in my lifetime and it has never been a better time to be able to decipher the information to identify these cars. I remember even 10 years ago most people had little or no knowledge about the numbers and how they corresponded on these vehicles.

I am not aware of the differences between the 307 and 327 manual, I thought maybe just the sway bar, possibly the front springs and the drill holes for the 327 badges which doesn't mean much, my understanding is that almost anything could be optioned, as I know a base model or non GTS HK Monaro with a 307, 3 speed column shift and banjo diff, my assumption would be that you option a bathurst tank with any car that had a hump in the boot.

The primer under the black is paint is almost a white colour or light grey. This seems to be consistent on most of the patches I have rubbed back.

I was told my car is 1969 based on the body number, I think it may have been March or April.

You are totally correct on the black, I had a black EH original paint. I remember seeing Black FJ's, EJ's and other Holdens which were all original paint, but I never saw an original black HK Monaro but like you said there must have been a few.



There are definite body differences that are easy to find if you know what you are looking for on a V8 car, then more again on a V8 manual and a few more for a 327 or car optioned with the big tank.

In theory you could option the large tank on GTS but it would have meant a Retail Order or Dealer Order which only a small % of cars were, most were Stock order particularly GTS327. You probably could have got the tank as well on a Monaro, if it was ordered as a V8 manual as it would have got a 3.36 Salisbury, or if it was a V8 auto but also optioned with a 3.36 rear end which would have got the Salisbury as well. The same applies to any HK where the tank would fit and the car could be ordered with a V8 manual or V8 auto with 3.36 rear end. If yours was black it will almost certainly been a Retail or Dealer order though.

I wouldn't expect white or light grey primer.

Get some photos of the firewall with closeups on both sides of the engine. Also of the diff "tunnel" where the prop shaft tunnel meets it, from underneath. Need to see the floor area above and in front of the rear axle. Also in the boot area on both sides showing the back side of the quarters and the area in front of the fuel tank too.

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munriman Offline
#9 Posted : Sunday, 7 March 2021 9:15:23 AM(UTC)
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Hi HK1837.

can you please confirm, so all Monaro V8 manual cars were optioned with 3.36 rear? Does this possibly also go with other HK models that were rare but optioned with a V8 manual as you stated above? or was is just an option on all other models except for GTS 327? Also would you know if all V8 Monaro manuals had the 15/16ths front sway bar or was it exclusive to the 327? There are many parts in the original parts manual that are exclusive to the 327 but I know they were optioned on other V8 manual HK Monaro's, not sure about other models.

Car is currently at the panel shop carefully being stripped back. I will get some extra photos this week of specific areas.

A brief interesting background to the car as I have been able to research so far. It was bought of an Air Force pilot based in Richmond NSW and then Williamtown Newcastle NSW in 1990, I have contact with the Air Force guy. The Air Force guy and his family were from far north QLD where his brother knew about the car and purchased it for him when he was stationed in Singapore about to return to Australia. The car was at that stage used as a tow vehicle for drag cars by an Italian sugar cane farming company and was heavily modified. The Italian guys used to race GT Fords and used the Monaro to tow their drag cars. If they damaged a gearbox or engine, they used to throw it in the boot of the Monaro which is evident in the car because the Bathurst Tank has all the battle scars and they reinforced the bottom structural rail under the back of the tank under the boot because the weight was bowing the floor. Also damage to the boot lid from being strapped down and rear beaver panel where it seems they backed onto the trailer or whatever many times.

This Monaro was obviously also raced at some stage because someone has installed a farm made tail shaft loop to the car which has obviously been there for a long time based on the grease oil and road grime. The car was fitted with different engines over its lifetime, eventually sold with a 307. They left the toploader gearbox and quick shift linkages and gearshifter when they sold the car. Unfortunately they had to cut the hump to fit the toploader and quickshift to the car, but fortunately the Saginaw pressing survived.

The car was then bought in 1990 by the new owner in Newcastle because the Air Force pilot was once again to be stationed overseas and had to sell the car quickly. The car at this stage had a damaged rear quarter from a bingle in Sydney traffic and was advertised in the local Newcastle trading post for $1700. The car had no takers for a number of weeks and then was bought by the Newcastle guy I bought it off for $700 the day before the Air Force guy was flying out. He drove the car home and stripped it immediately because the car was registered in QLD and the car had to be sold unregistered to return the plates, and also because of the damage to the rear quarter. The new owner had the dream of restoring the car, stripped all the paint back with his then girlfriend and painted the black car Picardy Red. The car then sat without assembly as a freshly painted body for 30 years in his garage until I purchased it after badgering him for 10 years to sell it.

I have spoken to him, and more importantly his girlfirend who is now his wife about what they uncovered when they stripped the original paint off the car and they have both emphatically stated that there was nothing but black paint on the entire car except the HT Monaro bonnet that was fitted which they found red paint under and that is why they decided to paint it red.

The research continues.
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#10 Posted : Sunday, 7 March 2021 10:55:35 AM(UTC)
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No. All V8 manual HK were standard with 3.36 Salisbury. Optional rear axles for V8 manual were 3.08 and 3.55 salisbury. All V8 auto (except GTS) were standard with 2.78 banjo, and optional with 3.08 banjo and 3.36 salisbury. From memory this applied to all HK except Brougham which was standard with 2.78 banjo and optional with 3.08 banjo. V8 auto GTS was from about the start of August 1968 standard with 3.36 Salisbury and optional with either 2.78 or 3.08 banjo, prior to this is was standard with either 2.78 or 3.08 banjo, which one is not totally clear.

I'm surprised I never heard of the car as I've always lived in Lake Macquarie (the big city semi-surrounding Newcastle). If I'd seen it for sale for $1700 as a GTS327 I would have bought it. I bought my Picardy Red GTS327 via the trading post in the early 90's for about $2000. It also had a Toploader in it with damaged shifter hole (Toploader went in the bin).

Do any of them know the whereabouts of the tags?

GTS327 sway bar was standard in the range 0.927-0.947", others were smaller and I cannot see an option code for it on other models. But it's an unboltable part so easily changed.

Edited by user Sunday, 7 March 2021 4:38:09 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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munriman Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, 8 March 2021 6:46:24 PM(UTC)
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Car was only advertised for a few weeks and then it disappeared from 1990 until now. I would have bough it as well, but I remember many occasions having the opportunity to buy registered and going Monaros on the central coast and Newcastle for not much more than $1000 mostly advertised on the side of the road, back then it was much more a decision to do with reliability and body condition than engine type.

I remember most of the cars had issues such as clutch problems, engine miss, diff noises, gearbox problems not to mention almost always serious rust problems, people drove them into the ground without proper maintenance and care, and when you drove it in the wet you had the stench of rotting carpet for weeks and a wet arse with sideswept rain coming through the poor fitting windows or drips from the windscreen and wet feet from perished, dislodged or missing plenum drain hoses, that is if the plenum wasn't rusted out or heater hose hot water dripping on your feet. It was truly good times when your missus didnt care about petrol smells and you could park your muscle car in the pub carpark without a worry in the world.

Today I have taken photos of the firewall and under the car where the diff is located and the tank area.

As for the tags, neither party know where the tags are they say they were missing since at least 1984, I am trying to trace the Italian connection in Mareeba, maybe/hopefully something may come of it.

Thank you for the information on the sway bar.



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#12 Posted : Monday, 8 March 2021 7:15:17 PM(UTC)
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It must have only been advertised as a Monaro, if it said GTS327 I’d have been onto it! I bought my red one a few hours after I got the trading post, it was in Tingara Heights. From memory I swapped a rusty VC Commodore 2850 4spd and $1200 for the GTS327 plus a driving HK Kingswood sedan. The sedan donated its floors and sills to fix my HK V8 GTS and its front clip for my yellow GTS327. Plus all its nuts, bolts, brackets, clips etc. I still have its mint guards and wheels in the shed! Pretty sure it’s grille is hanging up on the wall too. It’s front doors went onto a HK ute as well.
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munriman Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, 9 March 2021 3:38:58 AM(UTC)
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I am not sure how it was advertised would be great to find the advert. Both have said it was advertised as a "Bathurst Monaro" but in saying that most people didn't know the difference back then, coupled with the damaged rear quarter, wrong engine, wrong gearbox it would have not been very desirable to most people in 1990.

I can send you some pictures of my vehicle through munriman0@gmail, would be great if you could see something I cant in relation to its authenticity, I have it parked next to a 307 Auto and cant see any difference in the rear except for the radius rods.
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#14 Posted : Tuesday, 9 March 2021 5:33:30 AM(UTC)
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#15 Posted : Friday, 19 March 2021 5:26:13 PM(UTC)
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Hello Munriman.

You have the right person chatting with you regarding your matter in HK1837.

He has a deep body of quality knowledge.

Abi is correct about the Black Monaro belonging to a stalwart but sadly passed member of the NSW Club. Tat car is now in a garage not too far away from where it was. I know that car well as I saw it many times during its first class resto. I also used to see it when I was a kid getting around our suburbs. The only other known black car is elsewhere and complete with tags.

For many years it was thought the Western Sydney car was the only 327 GTS in Black. I am open minded on the possibility of several more being out there but doubt if there were more than a handful.

HK1837 has put a lot of time into the HKGTS37 gaining knowledge. I have spent a lot of time learning of the quirks of the Brisbane build type two engine cars. Happy to chat privately if you need.

Cheers Nick.
"HOLDEN MONARO. OUT TO DRIVE YOU WILD!"
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