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How would you rank GMH's premium cars?
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Originally Posted by: Simmo  Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: HGV8 I didn't realise there was a difference in power with earlier and later LX L31's.
Ours from memory was bought in late 1978. Can't remember it's build date though.
Maybe it was one of the later ones...
Regarding the HR 186S 4 speed. They were a lot quicker then a HK GTS Monaro 307 auto between sets of lights.
But then again the 307 powerglide were not much of a performance car.
Jim There is basically 6 x different red 308's from HT through to the end of HZ/VB: HT-HQ and early LH. 9:1, small camshaft (253's cam). L34. Same small camshaft as earlier engines but bigger valve heads, higher compression pistons (9.7:1-ish) and modified intake. HJ, later LH and early LX. Bigger camshaft (same grind cam as HK GTS327 and HT-HG GTS350), higher compression 9.7:1. HX and most LX other than A9X. Same cam as HJ, still 9.7:1 but loses significant power in its intake manifold. HZ and most A9X. Same as HX but different intake. Later HZ and VB. Compression lowered to 9.4:1. Back in the early 80's a friend was building lots of performance 308s and he found lots of the HX engines had a different cam chain sprockets that changed the cam timing. I remember him showing me a jig he made to test if engines had the dodgy sprockets. Anyone else heard of this? A jig that he made ? he put the top sprocket that fits on the cam on to a Jig is what you are saying ? Such a jig would be handy as not all the gears had the part number I believe but a coloured dot marking on them, only in time the colour faded so you could not see what it was. Maybe a slot that you dropped the sprockets keyway into and a paper marking out the difference to the teeth would be easy way to see the difference. Apart from that not all engines can be truly set up spot on just by using timing gears to be truly correct. because where the cam sits in the block is not always spot on, not to mention the lifter bores as well can be out of wack, some times just the cam position in the block can toss that timing out by up to 12 degrees and some V8 Cleveland block has been know to be out even up to 12 degrees because of just that, so that could be a good reason why some engines are gutless and some go better than most and some may call that a freak engine or a another a dud. The correct setup of the cam timing is something that any good engine builder does if performance is what the customer is after. The normal recon engine as just like a new engine is just slapped together as fast as possible with no time to look at things like such at all, time is money !
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: castellan Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: castellan Originally Posted by: gm5735 No particular performance/desirability bias here, but a couple of them are on the bucket list.
1. HT GTS350M. Because it’s a better car than the HK, and to me looks better.
2. HK GTS327.
3. 1973 150 list LJ XU1. The most urgent feeling Holden I’ve ever driven, and just outrageous as a road car.
4. HG GTS350M. The HG coupes’ styling was a backward step from HK and HT to me, but still a great drive.
5. L34
6. VK Group A.
7. A9X hatchback.
8. HQ GTS350M Coupe. Hard to accept the engine after HT, but the styling has grown on me over the years.
9. EH S4. No great shakes in the performance stakes, but as much for what it represents than what it is.
10. HR 186S 4 speed manual. Same reasons as 9.
Special mentions to HRT427, VL Group A SS, Late LC XU1.
L34 Torana now their was no real L34 was there offered to the public and anyroad the big cam came in a box. Where is the VH-K Group 3 ? I didn't include any HDT stuff as I was talking about cars GMH offered. The only HDT stuff I included was VK Group A as it was marketed as a GMH/Holden product. Plus HDT stuff is all over the shop eg VH GroupIII came standard with a 4.2L, and you could get the HDT modded 5.0L or even the High Output 5.0L. All these years on I think people get confused about what a car was like originally and what was reality - the L34 you mention is a perfect example. The cars we all remember getting into in the 70's or 80's might have felt like weapons as they were, but not original. The L34 I went in as a late teen had the HO pack cam and twin Dellortos, plus a 9" and Toploader or Muncie. The PhaseII and III's everyone thinks were so far ahead in performance were probably similarly modified turning them into far superior performers than the standard car ever was. Same with anything Chev powered, they all got fitted with bigger heads, bigger carbs etc and when diffs and boxes started to get smashed they got Muncies and 9" rear ends. As far as Falcon GT-HO Phase 2 and Phase 3 engine goes a 40/80 cam is mental that's a full race cam, even if the Phase 3 got less lift than the Phase 2 and that was only due to make the Phase 3 more drivable on the street due to customer complaints, no one can drive such a car with such cams unless your an above average driver. Anyone with over 40/80 cam would be a moron to drive such a thing on the street, it's hell on the spark plugs as you will have to flog the shit out off it to keep it running sweet. They still managed to get more out of them though. As I've said before the car Ford called the PhaseIII+ that Mel Nichols talks about in Wheels October 1971 put out 232hp at the rear wheels which as we've discussed before is probably the 350hp engine Mick Webb talks about as being the most powerful PhaseIII engine Ford ever did. This was stuffed full of the best stuff available though from Shelby in the USA. The factory cars that the public bought will be less than this obviously given their 1/4 mile trap speeds recorded in the day. I think you could be Correct with all that, the best Ford US had ? but not the Shelby point as they had alloy intake, better pistons and other bits that could be seen as better at the time. We just got a GT engine and ford Australia went from there doing it's own thing with it using some extra parts from Ford US to do the trick. The Phase 2 and Phase 3 cam was an Australian grind the yanks never had them cams. The XW GT-HO Windsor powered one had a yank cam as did all the XR 289 GT, XT 302 GT.
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Yes, all Shelby stuff. Get hold of that magazine issue and read it. |
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Yes, all Shelby stuff. Get hold of that magazine issue and read it. No Shelby stuff just Ford stuff.
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The article says Cobra Jet cam, Cobra Jet manifold and 850cfm carby. I assumed they were talking about the 1969-1970 351C GT350 unless the Shelby GT500 428 Cobra Jet parts happen to fit a Cleveland? |
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 The article says Cobra Jet cam, Cobra Jet manifold and 850cfm carby. I assumed they were talking about the 1969-1970 351C GT350 unless the Shelby GT500 428 Cobra Jet parts happen to fit a Cleveland? GT-HO intake manifold is the same as the GT Falcon and there is no 850cfm carby and no 4 bolt mains and no Cobra Jet cams as Australia made the Phase 2 cam and the Phase 3 cam. The GT-HO engines came to Australia as a normal GT engine and Ford Australia pulled them down and rebuilt them to Spec.
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I am not talking about the standard Ford production engine. This is what Ford built and called the PhaseIII+. Mel Nichols reports on it in the October 1971 Wheels magazine. It is quoted as having the best US goodies on it, namely cam, inlet and 850cfm carby, and it calls it from memory both Cobra Jet and Shelby stuff. Ford said the car put out 232hp at the rear wheels and this is as said before probably the 350hp PhaseIII engine Mick Webb spoke about. Don Deveson is the Ford person who took Mel Nichols for a spin on the Ford test track and told him all about it.
On top of that there is ads all through 1970-1971 in Wheels and in Ford Muscle Parts catalogues with Shelby stuff all over the place. A few examples are Wheels 1970 has a big feature on "Ford Plus Performance" - there is 5 pages of it, and even on the cover. Wheels March 1971 p68-69 has a big Shelby advert for the Wright Ford Hi-Performance Centre. Wheels April 1971 similar stuff with dual point dizzys, cams etc. Again in May 1971.
You'll find many PhaseII and III of the day that everyone remembers being so quick had some of this stuff, just like HK-HG 818137 owners stuck bigger cams, alloy intakes etc on their cars. And just like today when people stick cold air intakes, better exhausts and tune their LS engines.
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...the Fords out here had an engine program in 1971`-72 which eventuated in the little known "QC" engine....literally meaning Quality Control. These Ph 111's ended up having a lot of the American Boss 351 engine parts including the "Buddy Bar" aluminium inlet manifold with 780 double pump mechanical secondary Holley fitted with full extractor exhaust system in amongst many other tweaks. Maybe Castellan is right when he says they came in as standard GT engines and further improved out here, but apparently these "QC" engines were something else again ?? Edited by user Tuesday, 10 May 2016 3:53:16 PM(UTC)
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Dunno. All I was stating was that that PhaseIII+ was apparently the highest output Ford factory built 351C, 232hp at the rear wheels and may well be the engine Castellan quoted Mick Webb as stating the best they got was 350hp flywheel gross. |
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: castellan Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: castellan Originally Posted by: gm5735 No particular performance/desirability bias here, but a couple of them are on the bucket list.
1. HT GTS350M. Because it’s a better car than the HK, and to me looks better.
2. HK GTS327.
3. 1973 150 list LJ XU1. The most urgent feeling Holden I’ve ever driven, and just outrageous as a road car.
4. HG GTS350M. The HG coupes’ styling was a backward step from HK and HT to me, but still a great drive.
5. L34
6. VK Group A.
7. A9X hatchback.
8. HQ GTS350M Coupe. Hard to accept the engine after HT, but the styling has grown on me over the years.
9. EH S4. No great shakes in the performance stakes, but as much for what it represents than what it is.
10. HR 186S 4 speed manual. Same reasons as 9.
Special mentions to HRT427, VL Group A SS, Late LC XU1.
L34 Torana now their was no real L34 was there offered to the public and anyroad the big cam came in a box. Where is the VH-K Group 3 ? I didn't include any HDT stuff as I was talking about cars GMH offered. The only HDT stuff I included was VK Group A as it was marketed as a GMH/Holden product. Plus HDT stuff is all over the shop eg VH GroupIII came standard with a 4.2L, and you could get the HDT modded 5.0L or even the High Output 5.0L. All these years on I think people get confused about what a car was like originally and what was reality - the L34 you mention is a perfect example. The cars we all remember getting into in the 70's or 80's might have felt like weapons as they were, but not original. The L34 I went in as a late teen had the HO pack cam and twin Dellortos, plus a 9" and Toploader or Muncie. The PhaseII and III's everyone thinks were so far ahead in performance were probably similarly modified turning them into far superior performers than the standard car ever was. Same with anything Chev powered, they all got fitted with bigger heads, bigger carbs etc and when diffs and boxes started to get smashed they got Muncies and 9" rear ends. As far as Falcon GT-HO Phase 2 and Phase 3 engine goes a 40/80 cam is mental that's a full race cam, even if the Phase 3 got less lift than the Phase 2 and that was only due to make the Phase 3 more drivable on the street due to customer complaints, no one can drive such a car with such cams unless your an above average driver. Anyone with over 40/80 cam would be a moron to drive such a thing on the street, it's hell on the spark plugs as you will have to flog the shit out off it to keep it running sweet. They still managed to get more out of them though. As I've said before the car Ford called the PhaseIII+ that Mel Nichols talks about in Wheels October 1971 put out 232hp at the rear wheels which as we've discussed before is probably the 350hp engine Mick Webb talks about as being the most powerful PhaseIII engine Ford ever did. This was stuffed full of the best stuff available though from Shelby in the USA. The factory cars that the public bought will be less than this obviously given their 1/4 mile trap speeds recorded in the day. The engine was just a stock Phase 3 only set up by the best tuners they may of honed it out to race spec to get extra power. The other Phase 2 or 3 that people got from the factory were not tuned well at all, just like any car you bought new back in the day. Most mechanics back them days were hopeless tuners and all they did was set everything to factory spec, because they did not know any better and nor did they care. Only mainly people who were into tuning racing cars knew the art of getting the best out of a engines setup.
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Originally Posted by: detective ...the Fords out here had an engine program in 1971`-72 which eventuated in the little known "QC" engine....literally meaning Quality Control. These Ph 111's ended up having a lot of the American Boss 351 engine parts including the "Buddy Bar" aluminium inlet manifold with 780 double pump mechanical secondary Holley fitted with full extractor exhaust system in amongst many other tweaks.
Maybe Castellan is right when he says they came in as standard GT engines and further improved out here, but apparently these "QC" engines were something else again ?? If I remember correctly it was that you could get your Phase 2 or 3 blueprinted for extra $ No alloy intake was std spec GT-HO. but I am sure it could be done, but it's not a true Phase engine then is it. The first Phase 3 had a freer flowing exhaust but then they had to quiet them down some months into the XY production. Ford USA had 351 Boss and 351 H.0. engines with good HP parts. 351 Boss in 1971 had forged 11.1:1 pistons.
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Originally Posted by: castellan Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: castellan Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: castellan Originally Posted by: gm5735 No particular performance/desirability bias here, but a couple of them are on the bucket list.
1. HT GTS350M. Because it’s a better car than the HK, and to me looks better.
2. HK GTS327.
3. 1973 150 list LJ XU1. The most urgent feeling Holden I’ve ever driven, and just outrageous as a road car.
4. HG GTS350M. The HG coupes’ styling was a backward step from HK and HT to me, but still a great drive.
5. L34
6. VK Group A.
7. A9X hatchback.
8. HQ GTS350M Coupe. Hard to accept the engine after HT, but the styling has grown on me over the years.
9. EH S4. No great shakes in the performance stakes, but as much for what it represents than what it is.
10. HR 186S 4 speed manual. Same reasons as 9.
Special mentions to HRT427, VL Group A SS, Late LC XU1.
L34 Torana now their was no real L34 was there offered to the public and anyroad the big cam came in a box. Where is the VH-K Group 3 ? I didn't include any HDT stuff as I was talking about cars GMH offered. The only HDT stuff I included was VK Group A as it was marketed as a GMH/Holden product. Plus HDT stuff is all over the shop eg VH GroupIII came standard with a 4.2L, and you could get the HDT modded 5.0L or even the High Output 5.0L. All these years on I think people get confused about what a car was like originally and what was reality - the L34 you mention is a perfect example. The cars we all remember getting into in the 70's or 80's might have felt like weapons as they were, but not original. The L34 I went in as a late teen had the HO pack cam and twin Dellortos, plus a 9" and Toploader or Muncie. The PhaseII and III's everyone thinks were so far ahead in performance were probably similarly modified turning them into far superior performers than the standard car ever was. Same with anything Chev powered, they all got fitted with bigger heads, bigger carbs etc and when diffs and boxes started to get smashed they got Muncies and 9" rear ends. As far as Falcon GT-HO Phase 2 and Phase 3 engine goes a 40/80 cam is mental that's a full race cam, even if the Phase 3 got less lift than the Phase 2 and that was only due to make the Phase 3 more drivable on the street due to customer complaints, no one can drive such a car with such cams unless your an above average driver. Anyone with over 40/80 cam would be a moron to drive such a thing on the street, it's hell on the spark plugs as you will have to flog the shit out off it to keep it running sweet. They still managed to get more out of them though. As I've said before the car Ford called the PhaseIII+ that Mel Nichols talks about in Wheels October 1971 put out 232hp at the rear wheels which as we've discussed before is probably the 350hp engine Mick Webb talks about as being the most powerful PhaseIII engine Ford ever did. This was stuffed full of the best stuff available though from Shelby in the USA. The factory cars that the public bought will be less than this obviously given their 1/4 mile trap speeds recorded in the day. The engine was just a stock Phase 3 only set up by the best tuners they may of honed it out to race spec to get extra power. The other Phase 2 or 3 that people got from the factory were not tuned well at all, just like any car you bought new back in the day. Most mechanics back them days were hopeless tuners and all they did was set everything to factory spec, because they did not know any better and nor did they care. Only mainly people who were into tuning racing cars knew the art of getting the best out of a engines setup. Ah, OK. You mean the engine Mick Webb was talking about. It is a different engine then to the car reported on in that October 1971 Wheels as it had Shelby/CobraJet improvements and an 850cfm carby, and 232hp at the rear wheels. This was apparently their improved PhaseIII engine (so they called it a PhaseIII plus or PhaseIII+. You are right about as delivered tune. I've heard heaps of stories from all quarters (including Dr Terry) about new Holden and Ford 4BBL vacuum secondaries not opening properly, or not opening at all. And the same stories when the cars were 5-10 years old and a bit worn, people turfing Quadrajets for smaller Holleys that simply used more fuel and gave less peak power, but ran properly. All they needed was to be tuned properly. |
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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...pretty sure a standard Quadrajet on a 308 HT-HG-HQ was around 735 CFM. The 350 spec may've been even more ??
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Originally Posted by: detective ...pretty sure a standard Quadrajet on a 308 HT-HG-HQ was around 735 CFM. The 350 spec may've been even more ?? They are the same afaik. Only the big block Quadrajets are higher cfm. |
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...the 735 CFM Quadrajet carby was more than enough for these models considering the size of the ports when compared to the gaping great holes that make up the 4V close chamber Cleveland head. ..no wonder you could never get one of these GT engines to run smooth....such a massive amount of mixture thrown into a relatively small combustible area. Edited by user Wednesday, 11 May 2016 5:16:00 PM(UTC)
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When you read US websites some reckon the Cleveland never made sense in the scheme of street engines they already had at their disposal. The "blame" as a street engine (or credit as a performance engine) for the Cleveland seems to lie on the shoulders of ex-GM people mostly Bunkie Knudsen and a few who followed him over who used BBC design elements for the Cleveland. Ford blokes over there reckon once Bunkie left Ford the 351 Cleveland was to be retired, but ended up given to Ford Australia for further development. How much is true who knows? But given they have the 302 Boss, 351W, 390, 428 Cobra Jet plus 428 Super Cobra Jet and the 429 is does make you wonder what the 351C 4V was all about. We have to be glad they were built though otherwise we'd never have got the GT-HO II and III in the form we got them. |
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