Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Login


Take the time to read our Privacy Policy.
12 Pages«<7891011>»
Holden Commodore: questions - Dr Terry
Options Go to last post Go to first unread
Previous Topic Next Topic
castellan Offline
#161 Posted : Thursday, 22 April 2021 9:42:37 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,646

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
I.............................. when I got the VS V8 it did not have that function so you could drive flat out and the air-con still worked regardless. the Same with my VY SS.



you have obviously never exceeded 4500rpm in either vehicle Brick wall

My VN V8 berlina and VR SS and VS HSV Improved V8 Berlina
and my VX and VZ SS Commodores.. all had the one same factory
redeeming feature!

Exceed 4500 rpm .... in ANY gear (all were manual vehicles) and irrespective of speed
the aircon turns off Sick

My 2 VE Clubsports and current VF Clubsport... ditto

great factory feature ! Boo hoo!


I sat on 210km/h with cruse control on in 5th in my VY SS ute, I thought I had the air con on, maybe not. never felt the air-con cutting out in the VS V8 or more like as in getting hot and pissed off like I was in the V6 VS.
Wound the VY SS out to 255KM/H don't remember it getting hot. mine was speed limited to 210KM/H but I had that removed.

I think that the air-con cutting out at 4500rpm is a good idea to save the compressor, but you could adjust that up if you wanted to.

In the VS V8 on the highway you are mainly in 5th, it was stock as and I don't think you need rev them over 5000PRM maybe it was about 4500 and then change up. I remember taking it out to 200KM/H in 4th once when it was brand new just to run it in and she got to 200 and she complained with a series of say 9 backfires directly and then cleared, why the hell it did that I don't know but I would say it was doing 5000RPM. So I think 4500RPM 180KM/H was best to go into 5th.

With my VS V6 I ordered it a month before they came in so I got one of the first that came out then I had a freer exhaust fitted and chipped, so it was chiptorque's first one they did and he showed me all that he was doing on the computer, if I had known about the air-con setup at the time i could of got it set differently maybe, if they were just set to 4500RPM that would be much better than to do with low vacuum, i wounder how they went towing a Van ? so you come to a long hill and the bastard A/C cuts out.
Back to top
castellan Offline
#162 Posted : Thursday, 22 April 2021 10:32:53 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,646

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Haha, yes. The little over-pressurised tiny diesels pumping out crazy torque figures that can supposedly tow 3500kg. Like hell they can. Can’t hold the speed limit up hills and if the aircon is on they go even slower!


Yes i have heard all that shit able to tow 3 and a half tonne a mat was boasting, f off ! i said to him you are pissing into the wind, you can not tow above what the weight of the car is and if you do such one is a dickhead end of story i said, i don't give a rats if the law said you could do more i would not, but they do not say so do they. so all this crap about 3 and a half tonne towing is worthless boasting.

This mate had a new VF SS-V 375KW ute and 2 new Colorado's and here he is ranting about the Colorado's like a tosser, oh the power he claimed, yes they do go well for what they are but they are total shit thing to drive about in, not my cup of tea at all. i never want to get in such and i never want to drive them, but i had to at times.

Another mate has them big 4x4 Toyota wagons, he claims the roads are to bad to drive a car on, he claims the door start to rattle from the crap roads, f ing BS ! mine never rattled, sure every alloy wheels became eggs but never a rattle any were. I would hit the corrugation's as hard as and i found a magic shock absorber Monroe GT-GAS Reflex, i hated them at first and was going to take them back, but i did some corrugated roads with them on and it was like get f ed ! i was totally amazed so i just held it flat and it was fun, corrugated roads fun C'mon ! they shit you off right, but no ! not with this shock absorber, the 4x4's should have this type of shock design. it just takes out all the little bumps on a easy like setting and the bigger bumps are not a problem and the faster and harder you drive they work better.
When i first got them they were too soft over smooth roads and to stiff and some bumps were to stiff and turning corners it was like i needed stronger sway bars. i was pissed off with them, but after the good work out they became better and i was fine with them.
The springs are standard Holden SS ute everything, all this lowering stuff is just bull shit on the VY.

Well i had to lower my VS utes but only just the highest lowered springs and i use Pedders springs.
Back to top
Torana1978 Offline
#163 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 4:22:33 AM(UTC)
Torana1978

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 4/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 48
Russian Federation
Location: Saint Petersburg

Thanks: 14 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
How true information that the VH sedan and VH wagon were released in October and November 1981 respectively? Most sources say October 1981 for all VHs (well, except HDT), so I doubt it. The VB station wagon appeared 9 months after the sedan, but this is confirmed information, unlike the VH.
Back to top
Smitty2 Offline
#164 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 6:59:54 AM(UTC)
Smitty2

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 382
Australia
Location: bayside Melbourne

Thanks: 237 times
Was thanked: 28 time(s) in 28 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Torana1978 Go to Quoted Post
How true information that the VH sedan and VH wagon were released in October and November 1981 respectively? Most sources say October 1981 for all VHs (well, except HDT), so I doubt it. The VB station wagon appeared 9 months after the sedan, but this is confirmed information, unlike the VH.


nope,,, info I have says both VH sedan and wagons were released on 5 Oct 1981



hth
Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
Back to top
wbute Offline
#165 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 7:31:43 AM(UTC)
wbute

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,125

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 18 time(s) in 17 post(s)
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Haha, yes. The little over-pressurised tiny diesels pumping out crazy torque figures that can supposedly tow 3500kg. Like hell they can. Can’t hold the speed limit up hills and if the aircon is on they go even slower!


Do you mean can’t hold the speed limit up hills with a trailer?
I have done 350000km I’m my current D4D Hilux, my last one has 250000km on it (my son now owns it), my last Prado did 360000km and the one before it did 160000km before I got rid of it.
I have read many horror stories about the D4D, but never experienced any myself (touch wood). I have never had injectors replaced and never bothered with a catch can. I tow a bogie axle trailer with it my Hilux often.
Oil change every 10k and fuel filter at same time. Nothing special other than basic maintenance. I don’t bother getting valves checked as they never needed adjusting anyway.
They are no turbo 6 Cruiser when towing for sure, but they do it well enough for a 4 cylinder.
Overall I rate the D4D as a great engine. Certainly nothing spectacular as far as performance, but I have flogged my current Hilux into the ground driving to work(200km round trip) and then farm work and sometimes family vehicle.
That’s 1.12million km in a D4D altogether since 2008.

Edited by user Friday, 23 April 2021 7:33:41 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#166 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 8:21:43 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,063

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Torana1978 Go to Quoted Post
How true information that the VH sedan and VH wagon were released in October and November 1981 respectively? Most sources say October 1981 for all VHs (well, except HDT), so I doubt it. The VB station wagon appeared 9 months after the sedan, but this is confirmed information, unlike the VH.


When I was compiling information for my first book I was having great difficulty in verifying 'release dates'. Even GM-H sometimes list 2 different dates for the one car.

As I went deeper into it I found that there are different types of release dates. If we ignore the long lead releases for motor magazines & the early dealer-only releases the 2 main ones are the embargoed date on the 'press release' & the retail dealer reveal. The first one is when all details of the car are released to the media so it can go into the newspaper, TV & radio news of that day.

The 2nd 'reveal' date is when the dealers display the vehicles & offer them for sale the first time. This can be anything from a day, a week or even a month after the press release date.

Anyway, for this reason I've listed both dates (where available) in my books. If anybody has any information to the contrary I'm always glad to look at it.

Getting back to early Commodores, I have an almost complete collection of GM-H press releases for those cars so my I'm sure that my dates are 100% correct.

For VB sedan I have 26 Oct 78 for the press release & 13 Nov 78 for the on-sale date. The VB wagon, which took longer to develop, was released to the press 24 July79 & at the dealers on 6 August 79.

The VH press release dated 29 September 81 (dealer reveal 5 Oct 81) has both the sedan & wagon range listed on the same day.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Friday, 23 April 2021 9:42:08 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
 2 users thanked Dr Terry for this useful post.
Torana1978 on 23/04/2021(UTC), Smitty2 on 23/04/2021(UTC)
HK1837 Offline
#167 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 8:26:13 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,724

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 512 time(s) in 488 post(s)
Exactly what I said. Most of my towing is up the New England highway. Almost all overtaking lanes are uphill. Tiny diesels towing vans try to overtake trucks and in most cases they can’t do 80. Amarok even state in the owners manual to not do over 80 when towing. I drove out to Parkes on Good Friday. Conga line of pissy little diesels towing camper trailers and vans on the Golden Highway doing 70. Get to uphill overtaking lanes, champions in their Rangers try to overtake those in front and can’t even accelerate up hills and end up pulling back in, meanwhile no-one gets past! Frustrating as hell. They simply do not have the engine capability to tow even their real towing capacity (let alone the claimed one) on 100kmh country roads with hills. Probably fine on flatter roads like the M1 (unless it’s an Amarok) but useless nce there are hills.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Back to top
Torana1978 Offline
#168 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 10:03:12 AM(UTC)
Torana1978

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 4/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 48
Russian Federation
Location: Saint Petersburg

Thanks: 14 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Anyway, for this reason I've listed both dates (where available) in my books. If anybody has any information to the contrary I'm always glad to look at it.

Thanks, Dr Terry. I heard this from a man who was working at the Holden dealership at the time.All sources I know say about October 1981, so I clarified here. Most likely, he was wrong. But maybe some dealers received sedans and station wagons with a month's delay?

Anyway, I think your option 1 is more correct, because dealers receive information much earlier than the media and buyers.






Back to top
HK1837 Offline
#169 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 11:09:15 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,724

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 512 time(s) in 488 post(s)
There was also sometimes a dealer reveal, which often happened a week or so prior to the official Press Release, so that the dealers could see something very new. The main example that interests me is the Dealer Reveals for the HK Monaro and Brougham. There was at least two of these, probably more: one in Sydney at the Trocadero Ballroom in George Street, and another in Melbourne. The "official" Press Release was held at Surfers Paradise across Sunday-Monday 21-22 July 1968. The Press Conference, so the reveal date to the Press was 21st July. The drive day was 22nd July , and the Embargo date Dr Terry mentions was 22nd July. Due to the need to meet the September Magazine deadlines GMH organised a Press Test day at Lang Lang on the morning of Tuesday 16th July, and this is where they set the embargo date of 22nd July. Which was promptly broken by the Age on 17th July! I do wonder if that was staged though, as Christopher De-Fraga was chosen to drive a GTS327 back to Melbourne from Surfers the next week, so he wasn't punished at all.
The Dealer reveal was Monday 15th July. My yellow GTS327 was used for the Sydney event. Charlie McCarron of Canowindra Motors bought the car off GMH after that event, it was possibly one of the first GTS327's on the road in NSW. He said he used to blast around outback NSW at 120mph or more, scaring the hell out of locals as they never would have seen anything like it, and was advised by the local Police to sell it.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#170 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 1:08:39 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,063

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Torana1978 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Anyway, for this reason I've listed both dates (where available) in my books. If anybody has any information to the contrary I'm always glad to look at it.

Thanks, Dr Terry. I heard this from a man who was working at the Holden dealership at the time.All sources I know say about October 1981, so I clarified here. Most likely, he was wrong. But maybe some dealers received sedans and station wagons with a month's delay?

Anyway, I think your option 1 is more correct, because dealers receive information much earlier than the media and buyers.


The dealers see it from another angle also, that of supply. It's all very well for GM-H to announce the release of the whole model range, but some of the more obscure packages might involve a time delay.

Say for example a prospective buyer comes into the dealership on day of release & orders a wagon with a complex set of options, for example VH SL/X model, with country pack suspension, metallic paint, manual, no a/cond etc. etc. This might involve a 4 to 6 week wait. As far as the dealer is concerned the wagons weren't available from day 1, they were 'released' 4 to 6 weeks after the sedans.

Dr Terry

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
Smitty2 Offline
#171 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 2:03:03 PM(UTC)
Smitty2

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 382
Australia
Location: bayside Melbourne

Thanks: 237 times
Was thanked: 28 time(s) in 28 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
[.....................
The dealers see it from another angle also, that of supply. It's all very well for GM-H to announce the release of the whole model range, but some of the more obscure packages might involve a time delay.

Say for example a prospective buyer comes into the dealership on day of release & orders a wagon with a complex set of options, for example VH SL/X model, with country pack suspension, metallic paint, manual, no a/cond etc. etc. This might involve a 4 to 6 week wait. As far as the dealer is concerned the wagons weren't available from day 1, they were 'released' 4 to 6 weeks after the sedans.

Dr Terry




and then you get GMH... who 'release' the same thing 3 times
like the Vacationer model (both sedan and wagon) on the VH



Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
Back to top
HK1837 Offline
#172 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 2:03:56 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,724

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 512 time(s) in 488 post(s)
What Dr Terry says happened with my HJ Premier. HJ was released early in October 1974. The person who ordered my HJ went into his local dealer in Newcastle in October and paid a deposit on a HJ Premier sedan with the following options:

5.0L.
Console shift.
LSD.
Aircon.
Power Steer.
Sports dash.
Power Windows.
Heated rear window.
Power antenna.
6" rims.
Group3 metallic.

The only major options available but not ticked were N10 dual exhaust and cloth trim. Sunshine roof and 7" wheels weren't available until January 1975 so he wouldn't have known about those.

It had to be a retail order as GMH would never have built that car for sale (stock order). It was supposed to be ready for Xmas, and it was actually complianced in December but something caused a delay and it wasn't completed and delivered until February 1975. The dealer actually loaned the buyer a car for the Xmas holidays.

He fitted a radio cassette aftermarket (dash is still uncut from how it is for an original radio) and Kmac suspension, it was all put on within a few weeks of delivery. Luckily I have obtained some original front and rear shocks from an identical HJ Premier with the correct codes and build dates for it which are being restored including the original green paint on the rears to put back in.

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#173 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 4:43:17 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,063

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post


and then you get GMH... who 'release' the same thing 3 times
like the Vacationer model (both sedan and wagon) on the VH




Yeah but they were slightly different versions with different PO numbers & differing levels of equipment.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
HK1837 Offline
#174 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 4:49:30 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,724

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 512 time(s) in 488 post(s)
I read somewhere that when Vacationer first started in HQ they were Winter and Summer Vacationer. Not sure where I first saw it.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Back to top
Smitty2 Offline
#175 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 7:49:07 PM(UTC)
Smitty2

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/07/2019(UTC)
Posts: 382
Australia
Location: bayside Melbourne

Thanks: 237 times
Was thanked: 28 time(s) in 28 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post


and then you get GMH... who 'release' the same thing 3 times
like the Vacationer model (both sedan and wagon) on the VH



Yeah but they were slightly different versions with different PO numbers & differing levels of equipment.

Dr Terry



yes .. and that was a PITA for the BOM guys in the section of VAP Costing next to my group in Financ
everytime this happened.

Marketing wanted 'improvements' each time (which they got) but the retail buyers when fronted
by a dealers showroom sales staffer waving a brochure really didn't care.*

A pack.. 6cyl (or 8 cyl) auto with air, cloth trim, chrome wheel trims, their choice of colour with matching decals
cheaper than the usual build it + add-ons meant they sold

What GMH gained by making batches of same spec cars like 'Vacationers' in production assembly plant manufacturing
efficiency (= cheaper cars) they gave away on the showroom floor.

They sold more cars... and made no more profit


* thru me, my ol'man bought VK, VK and VL Vacationer sedans. He thought they were good value
and for the retail punters, they were ...

Club circuit racing...the best fun you can have with your pants on
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#176 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 8:38:52 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,063

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post

They sold more cars... and made no more profit



Maybe not !! I believe that most Vacationers went to retail buyers, back in the days when most Holdens went to fleet & Govt. departments.

At retail they were good for the dealers.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
HK1837 Offline
#177 Posted : Friday, 23 April 2021 10:22:52 PM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,724

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 512 time(s) in 488 post(s)
You have to remember though that GMH wanted people to buy stock order vehicles. They didn’t want a lot of people to place a retail order for a vehicle. With normal stock order they had to predict what dealers could sell. Whereas with a one spec vehicle, if they nailed the market they could then sell a lot of them, all the same (bar a few colour choices) with the bulk of them at retail price. Sure if you added up the individual options the package might seem like GMH were giving away things, but in reality what is the cost difference to build 1000’s of identical vehicles with say a 4 speed manual over a 3spd or a bench seat with a folding armrest over a standard one just to name a few. What I mean is sure, a HQ SS might have seemed cheap to the buyer over placing a retail order for a V8 Belmont sedan with optioned U21, M20, N10, N66 and XS6 (you couldn’t option M11, the guards or the steering wheel). However it wouldn’t have cost GMH much for the M20 box over M15, the guards would be bugger all different, a pair of buckets over a bench and a few extra instruments. The 3.36 rear end over the standard 3.08 cost nothing. Yes the extra pipe and muffler, the console and the stripes plus the cloth in the seats might have added a few dollars plus the N66 rims were imported over local, but in the end they built 1000’s if them and they sold well, all the same. No lack of sale because a buyer wanted a 308 or power steering - there were no VAP options. Either you bought one or you didn’t and bought something else. My guess is GMH would have made more out of those SS’s than they would have if they had to build the same amount in all different build specs for the same amount of retail order vehicles.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Back to top
Torana1978 Offline
#178 Posted : Saturday, 24 April 2021 4:00:08 AM(UTC)
Torana1978

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 4/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 48
Russian Federation
Location: Saint Petersburg

Thanks: 14 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post

Say for example a prospective buyer comes into the dealership on day of release & orders a wagon with a complex set of options, for example VH SL/X model, with country pack suspension, metallic paint, manual, no a/cond etc. etc. This might involve a 4 to 6 week wait. As far as the dealer is concerned the wagons weren't available from day 1, they were 'released' 4 to 6 weeks after the sedans.

Dr Terry

Yes, that's exactly what I assumed.

Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post

and then you get GMH... who 'release' the same thing 3 times
like the Vacationer model (both sedan and wagon) on the VH

Weren't all 3 VH Vacationers pre-Christmas (1981, 1982, 1983)?
Back to top
Shearer Offline
#179 Posted : Sunday, 25 April 2021 8:51:43 PM(UTC)
Shearer

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 122
Man

Thanks: 1 times
I use to remember advertisements for limited edition runs such as VP Vacationer, VR Equipe, VS Vacationer/Equipe would state 'limited to 2000 sedans and 500 wagons'

Did Holden build the exact number of these limited editions?
Back to top
Torana1978 Offline
#180 Posted : Thursday, 6 May 2021 8:14:23 AM(UTC)
Torana1978

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 4/01/2021(UTC)
Posts: 48
Russian Federation
Location: Saint Petersburg

Thanks: 14 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
I found various info about VH Vacationer introduction.

1. Nov 81, Jan 82, Oct 82, Apr 83.

2. Nov 81, Oct 82, Apr 83 and Nov 83.

Which of these is correct? Are Vacationer, Vacationer II and Vacationer III similar? I used to think there were only three issues (81, 82, 83), but it looks like there were 2 issues in 1983.

Edited by user Thursday, 6 May 2021 8:15:21 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
Back to top
Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
12 Pages«<7891011>»
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF | YAF © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.206 seconds.