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Sandaro Offline
#61 Posted : Tuesday, 7 December 2021 12:36:16 PM(UTC)
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On a side note to this question, I think along the way Munriman was suggesting (or asking) if these bright red/orange colours were reserved for the sports models?

A mate once had a 307 HK wagon with the engine painted black, even though the vehicle appeared original I always thought that must have been re-painted? I thought that all imported motors would have all come from the factory the same colour (or thereabouts as per the above discussion) and just stuck in vehicles by Holden. Or where there separate piles of engines (say 307) depending on the level vehicle being fitted to?

Edited by user Tuesday, 7 December 2021 12:36:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#62 Posted : Tuesday, 7 December 2021 2:15:50 PM(UTC)
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There was only two specification of engine for each size. For the 307 and HQ 350 the difference was the bellhousing and clutch versus a flex plate. For the HT-HG 350 the difference was greater but only because they were different engine specs (L48 300hp base vs LM1 255hp base). Of course the 327 only came in the one spec as they were all manual, and the automatic versions (also an L73 base) came as part of a mechanical pack for each CKD vehicle, not just a container full of engines in crates like the Holden engines did. The individual specs did change over time as we know, like the baffled sump introduced to 327 mid HK or the change from Chevrolet engine plant supply to GM engine plant supply.

All of these engines in a Holden were the performance engine at some stage. 307 initially, then 327, later 350. Although the HT/G 350 were actually different engines GMH basically treated them the same but with a different spec depending upon your transmission choice.
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munriman Offline
#63 Posted : Tuesday, 7 December 2021 8:24:40 PM(UTC)
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Its obvious and/or reasonable to think that there are colour variations between engines, not only in the way the engines were painted as some have suggested (thinners, mixing quantities, suppliers, batch differences, painter skills, pigment quality etc) but also that there were a minimum of two colours used in America in this era, Chevrolet Orange or Chevrolet Orange Red.

At this point we must be careful in how we use the name designation to label the paint, as this could have changed from plant to plant, suppler to supplier, person to person or even plainly been mislabelled, it is by no means a guarantee that the names Chevrolet Orange or Chevrolet Orange Red are the correct terms for the colours of these engines. It is also important to remember that these colours are all in the red spectrum with at best slight variations to each other in intensity so easy to misinterpret.

An example is the difficulty of being able to detect the differences of the two reds with certainty unless the two colours are placed side by side.

A good example of the above naming and interpretation or misinterpretations of paints is the Australia example of Rocket Red, Holden X2 Engine Red, HK Engine Red etc.

The Australian Holden example can be no different to the American example. All engines were built at Fishermans Bend which stands to reason that all engines were painted at Fishermans Bend. This means all variations and interpretations of paint colours fall into the same category as the American example above (thinners, mixing quantities, suppliers, batch differences, painter skills, pigment quality etc)

There were definitely painting facilities at other plants, Pagewood is an example if they were geared up to paint raw gearboxes on Chevrolet engines, it makes one wonder what other components were painted at that facility?

I suppose it is still important for restorers and car enthusiasts alike to have some direction in what colour to paint their engines. Maybe there is no answer with the passing of 50 years, the misinterpretation of paint colours, and the subjective views of each individual and the fading and differences in original paint examples. Like it was stated, historically it was never a consideration regarding the quality of a car.
HK1837 Offline
#64 Posted : Tuesday, 7 December 2021 9:36:04 PM(UTC)
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Although it is unlikely you will see it today, it used to be commonly seen (at least locally to me) on HJ to HZ vans. Most local here were Pagewood Assembly with others from Acacia Ridge. The same phenomenon existed with all Eluzabeth assembled cars plus Dandenong vans and cab-chassis. I used to see it in the 80’s and 90’s and dismissed it as respray but in reality it was for example an Elizabeth body assembled at Pagewood, where the front panels were an obvious different shade to the firewall backwards. It was more obvious on silvers and dark colours. With Elizabeth (and Mosman park) assembly they painted their front panels later in the assembly process where the other plants painted the front panels in the same booth as the body and they were re-united in the assembly plant, except of course for the vehicles where the bodies were painted at Elizabeth and assembled at Pagewood, Dandenong (and Mosman Park). What I’m getting at is with the higher level of paint finish on the exterior we could easily see that even at Elizabeth where the body plant and assembly plant probably even shared paint source you could clearly see the variation simply as it wasn’t all painted at once. So if that was difficult, imagine the variations between engine colours where no-one really gave a toss about it, where we are talking varying paint sources across Ontario, Buffalo region, Sydney, Melbourne etc, being painted in different areas of different plants at different temperatures using different thinners. There was always going to be variations.
All I’d do is paint the engine in a colour that looks close to remnants off your original engine and if it’s displayed simply state on the display board that the engine is painted to closely match the original remnant paint found between the bellhousing and the gearbox. State that the GMH specification was X2 engine red and it has been replicated to the best of your ability. Unless a concours judge has to split hairs I doubt it’d ever have to be questioned. I’m sure every car would have other problems of far greater significance than a slight engine colour variation. And to be fair I bet all the concours cars are over-restored anyway with no overspray, engines far neater than any one ever was etc. have you seen some of the untouched shockers with firewall paint like someone sneezed it on there or where the ID tag mask has moved and the tag is half covered in black paint or even red lead primer? They were mass produced, close enough was good enough.
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RigPig Offline
#65 Posted : Wednesday, 8 December 2021 11:53:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: munriman Go to Quoted Post
Hi Rigpig, thank you for the information and pics of your bellhousing.

That X2 swatch shown in your pics, which publication is that from? Would be interesting to do some comparisons on that colour code.



I'll have to buy a can of Duplicolour 1620 and spray it out and compare it to my bellhousing one day.
The sample page is from my Dulon Dulux Duco colour advisory folder.
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