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Pulling out a gas system - Cost
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bosko Offline
#21 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 9:38:38 AM(UTC)
bosko

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quote:
Originally posted by bosko
quote:
Originally posted by davequey74
dr terry us right, a properly set up gas system will produce more power than petrol, and is cheaper


Read what I wrote, I will repeat it here as you appear to be comprehensionally challenged.

"You should explain this better because everything else being equal and assuming the petrol engine isnt knocking then an increase in RON number wont produce any more power."

Now as for your statement

"a properly set up gas system will produce more power than petrol"

This statement is false, as it can be neither proven nor disproven depending on the parameters of the system being analysed.

The only way you will guarantee more power is by increasing the compression ratio, and this doesnt come within the confines of "a properly set up gas system "
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vintageholden Offline
#22 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 10:38:56 AM(UTC)
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"a properly set up gas system will produce more power than petrol"
......same car same conditions, lpg WILL produce more power...........
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bosko Offline
#23 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 10:43:22 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by vintageholden
"a properly set up gas system will produce more power than petrol"
......same car same conditions, lpg WILL produce more power...........


.....the Easter Bunny is real....

(because I say so)
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MrPink Offline
#24 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 1:32:30 PM(UTC)
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Hate to say it but Im with the princess on this one.
No not the Easter Bunny.
Ive never driven a car on LPG that makes more power than when its running on petrol. Ive driven lots over a lot of years and 99% have proved to be cr*p. Ive had mates that have spent money on the best of systems and they were all disappointed.
The only one and I mean one was a VT with factory LPG/Petrol and it felt the same on either fuel. I guess Holdens got it right and the aftermarket industry is still making wild claims and living in fantasy land.
Also I removed the LPG off my HZ 308 and never regretted it.
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MrPink Offline
#25 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 2:16:27 PM(UTC)
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From the NRMA website.

LPG = Less kilometres per litre
You can expect a 20-30 per cent increase in gas consumption over petrol per kilometre because the lower energy content of gas requires more to be burned in the engine compared with petrol. For example, a six cylinder Commodore achieves 10.9 litres per 100 km on petrol compared to 16 litres per 100km when run on LPG.
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commodorenut Offline
#26 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 4:02:43 PM(UTC)
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On a newer EFI car, which generally have higher compression than the older motors, people ARE seeing decent power gains when running LPG after re-mapping the ignition advance curve.

Gas doesnt contain as much calorific energy as petrol, which is why you need more. In a real-world, well tuned gas system scenario, this is more like 15% increase. 20-30% is what the older restrictive systems were doing.

Hundreds of people who have LS1/LS2/L76 gas systems have already found power increases, without opening the motor. It does work, and the word is spreading.

But dont worry, it wont affect you negative guys, you wont touch a car with plastic bumpers anyway, so keep your eyes closed to modern developments.

Cheers,

Mick
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A lot of people aim to achieve nothing in life - and have amazing accuracy.
Cheers,

Mick
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Judge a successful man not on how he treats his peers, but on how he treats those less fortunate.
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MrPink Offline
#27 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 5:47:09 PM(UTC)
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Had 5 plastic bumper cars, one in the driveway now.
I cannot tell you how many years Ive been hearing the same rhetoric from the LPG fraternity, its great, its cheap, it works, its got the same power....
Truth is the only LPG that Ive seen that looks acceptable was on a new Commodore at the dealership, the only problem was that car was a poverty pack with plastic pretend mags and was expensive for what you got so we purchased a petrol version with real mags and some creature comforts.
It would appear that Holdens do a good job with the latest LPG technology but with a Company with the resorces of GMH I suppose you could expect some degree of success.
As for the aftermarket industry and their meager resorces no wonder LPG has been a total compromise with massive deficiencies until this point of time.
Bottom line give me petrol and the extra room in the trunk, I can afford petrol. Also you are correct I prefer chrome bumpers and yesterday.
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Dr Terry Offline
#28 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 7:03:43 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by bosko
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
LPG has a higher octane rating & with an injected system, makes more power than petrol.



You should explain this better because everything else being equal and assuming the petrol engine isnt knocking then an increase in RON number wont produce any more power.

Yes, it does require some explanation. It comes down to your comment:-

"everything else being equal and assuming the petrol engine isnt knocking"

Cars with knock sensors will make adjustments to the ignition curve according to what fuel is on board. In my experience if you ran an HSV Gen3 V8 on 91 RON unleaded it makes less power than when on 98 RON fuel. This is because the ECU will sense any detonation (pinging or knocking) & adjust the ignition map accordingly. If you run avgas or LPG the same will occur (a power increase). The amount of gain depends on several factors, including how aggressive the standard factory map is, the compression ratio, ambient air temperature etc etc.

As the commodorenut has said, tuners are making good power gains without opening the motor, just fiddling with fuel & ignition maps.

If everything is kept the same (i.e. no timing changes) then yes, you are correct, the octane rating doesnt matter, we could all just use 91 RON.

In response to MrPinks comment that he didnt buy the Commodore because it didnt have alloys & other creature comforts. The current poverty pack Commodore Omega has alloys as standard & if you want, you can option LPG on anything up to a Berlina. Nobody pays retail price currently, the dealers are cutting $1,000s off prices of any car. With the Fed Governments $2000 rebate, it makes the LPG car purchase quite cheap. Its a good idea to get out of your armchair & have a look at want the aftermarket is offering these days (your comments are only valid for what was happening last century). All cars built after 2004 require injection type LPG systems to pass the stricter anti-pollution laws & there are some very neat systems out there.

BTW, Holden didnt develop their factory system, it was developed by Impco/BRC, who have been doing all the factory Holden systems since VP.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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bosko Offline
#29 Posted : Wednesday, 20 May 2009 7:36:12 PM(UTC)
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what is the current situation with domestic manufacturers and DFI and have you seen significant further power increases with these systems?
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musksell Offline
#30 Posted : Thursday, 21 May 2009 10:49:26 PM(UTC)
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Facts forgotten...LPG injection makes good torque as well.
Your motor will last longer. The heads will stay cleaner.
Less pollution into the atmosphere.

A few years ago I looked into gas injection , I was quoted $5000 for a V8 already on carb gas...but Im sure it has come down alot since then.
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