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Originally posted by BREDBO
Will everyone stop using the phrase"muscle car" to describe Australian built cars. The U.S of A was the only country to build muscle cars. No big blocks in Australian cars therefore no Australian muscle cars!

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Well I guess that counts out the 64 GTO, Firebird SD455, 70 GTO Judge and Catalina 2+2 sice Pontiac never had a BB either

what a dick

Yeah, but what about a 302 Boss Mustang or a 302 Z28 Camaro? These things were weapons.

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?

The yanks generally used 2 terms, Muscle car, which was first coined with the 64 GTO where they put a big engine into an intermediate bodied car. Small engined Mustangs, Camaro and Firebird were generally called "pony" cars.
If you want to get technical I guess we need to use 2 terms in Oz, Australian Muscle car for our Hi Po cars and Muscle car for the big engined US cars.
I guess regarding values, I cant see how a LC GTR could be priced similar to a 400ci Firebird or how a 350 Monaro is priced similar to a 440 Dodge Charger, there are obviously huge differences in power but at the end of the day it is supply v demand, they built plenty of Hi Po cars in the US and a relatively small volume of cars here,
and the Aussie cars have certain attributes, ie they handle well unlike most of the US built cars.
I guess if someone has big money to spend on a Monaro or GT, and they feel they are getting good value for money, who can argue?
A car is only valued at what people are prepared to spend on them.

Yes, i was practicing the art of EXTREME sarcasm. Probably should have used a smiley face for emphasis?

I thought the term muscle and pony referrred to the platform, as in medium or large sized cars, regardless of displacement?

At the end of the day, as was said, cars are worth what people pay. I mean look at art, which some would say cars can be: why is a beautiful landscape portrait worth, oh, $1000, but a red splash on a white canvass named "anguish" sells for $9,000,000 (and yes, i made that up)? Its just worth what someone will pay.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread. In a way everyone is a bit right,the term "MUSCLE CAR" was created by someone(marketing,sales or jouralist type person somewhere). Because the term was created by pop culture its defination will always be subject to debate.
The corvette is an interesting point when does it become a muscle car rather than a sports car which was its design. It is a muscle car only when fitted with L88 big block.
Muscle cars to me seem to be cars that where built by the factory to drag race,the yanks have been doing this since the fifties but only the big block and I mean the era between mid sixities to 70 was muscle.
Yes I know there was Yenko and Baldwin and Motion Performation,Shelby and Royal Pontaic not factory but their big block cars are regarded as muscle also. Still there is no authority that can define these things.
Is a Jensen Interceptor a muscle car? Big block Mopar,Tourqueflite transmission low production small body sports car. Change the engine to ford and you could be describing a cobra.Are they both muscle cars or not what defines one and not the other.
Value wise apart from special cars with history the big blocks will, as muscle cars should ,always command the highest prices. In Australia the GT Ford will be the king as far as prices go as it will always be regarded as australias premium "muscle" car.(I can hear the keyboards tapping already)
Much as I love Monaros and yes I have just one and Im the only person in Australia not to have owned a Bathurst model. As a side line I love the look on peoples faces when I say no its not a Bathurst model and they look at you with this sort of why not expression but I digress.Monaros were always regarded as an Italian car driven by only Italians and since you drive a monaro you must be an Italian. Yes I had monaros in the 70s and 80s and 90s.This I believe is the reason that monaros will always be valued less. Forget supply and demand its the deep seated trauma of school boy bullying that values Australian classics.

Dont worry about it, you generated good discussion. GP was right to question your comment, but out of line to call you a d!c#. GT Ford itself will never be King either unless its a GT-HO (like an SS Hatch 5.0L or SLR5000 would never be anything other than a pretty car with a big engine without the A9X). Although the XW phase II and XY phase III were awesome road cars, I still stand by my thoughts that one of the fundamental driving forces behind their elevevated value and desirability is there is no other Aussie Ford product(apart from an XA RPO83) that even comes close in collectability (or to rephrase, no other Fords tick all the boxes like Phase II or III).
I did misread HQformes comment too, so on a re-read it was sarcasm so apology there too.

_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?

Hi Bronson
Ill respectfully stay on subject. Mind you this thread has been an interesting read. I might start another and invite them to continue the off subject yet interesting discussion on it!

Regarding values. To look inward at values from a car nuts perspective does not take into account what put them where they are today. Daring opportunists (some call this species investors.... or money hungry rats...lol) have largely gone from this market (at the moment). People were adding say $100k to a home loan to buy their dream car.... and thousands were purchased this way. Other people had spare cash for discretionary spending. Beaut old cars have always and will always be on peoples lists. So when things were booming all was good.... Happy days!

The world was over geared with borrowings and the easy way to get stuff to tick it up and well pay it back...tomorrow.

As usual when things went pear shaped the first things to go are the toys....the boat, the paintings the holiday apartment... the treasured muscle car. So all of a sudden the market is awash with cars at high prices as buyers vanished.

People say that muscle cars only have appeal to a certain demographic but I disagree. It is not entirely correct to compare the future of a sixties muscle car with say a Buick Straight Eight or a late model desireable car.How many cars from the fortiesor fities had words like GTS350. Super Roo. Lone O Ranger Orange.Superbee.Rat. True Blue. Wild Violet. Cobra. Hemi.Six Pack. Four speed.Drag Pack. Tractionlock. Shaker.(list is endless)in their sales brochures. The era was on FIRE. There are many things which will ensure that cars from the late fifties to the mid seventies remain evergreen. Some are:

*Style and shape. Because post war of market demand and rapidly increasing (and affordable) manufacturing technology the manufacturers had the design studios on overload creating designs which are copied over and over again. e.g. Mini,VW, Fiat 500, GT40, Camaro, Challenger, Mustang the latest is the new Merc Gullwing.
*The era. The 60s especially was a time of dramatic cultural and social change.
*Reliability. With unitary construction vehicles were becoming more and more reliable.
*Roads and Laws. Roads were being improved in most western countries. Laws werent changing at the same pace. Vehicle design rules did not start in Australia til 1970. By comparison Todays laws guarantee there will never be such raw and simple cars made. Condideration of pedestrian safety dictate conservative exterior design. Also there were no really significant road rule changes till the mid 70s. Up till then you could pretty much drive at 100mph on an unrestricted road unless it could be proven to be unsafe......NIRVANA for a Muscle car nut!
*Performance although todays cars are light years ahead in terms of the overall package of performance and handling. They are seemless. Drive any 60s car quickly and you know youve done just that.
*User friendliness. By the time we got the Monaro and the Falcon GT they were also fairly comfy and things like radios and heater demisters were becoming standard equipment.But you still knew you were driving a car.
* Mechanical simplicity. Combine this with the classic design on the outside (and interior) and you have a formula which ensures the interest of the masses. Truly, you can repair thes cars in your back yard.(I own a car which has won at national concours level which was restored, including paint, in a carport).
* Complete formula. The era was unique in that there were so many good ingredients which went into the formula.
*Scrap Merchants. Wholesale culling of massive numbers of viable cars has increased rarity. Five years ago I knew of many vehicles sitting around.....all gone. I drive the Pacific Highway from the far North Coast to Sydney regularly. When I do I make a point of trying to count the number of steel bumpered cars... I never see any.

Because of these things they (most cars from the era) are quirky and fairly easy to own and yes they are inferior to todays cars but they are easy to drive by comparison to earlier models. OH and I forgot to mention things like (especially with Holden/Chrysler/Ford) the Golden era of Racing. You really Could relate your Kingswood to the Monaros on the racetracks... they were your Kingswoods cousins.

Sure we have fantastic new musclecars. I have an R8 in the Garage. It is super quick, reliable, turns, stops, is comfy, has good fuel economy compared to an old car.... it is absolutely fantastic in so many ways and I love driving it. But it is quiet and smooth and unless I am driving in an extreme manner it doesnt tell me I am in a quick car.....its seemless (I also cannot relate it to a V8 Supercar). In forty years it will still be seemless....but it probably wont exist as manufacturers can now very effectively build decay into cars. Back then they were still learning.

Dont be too worried about the value of your old car unless you need to get rid of it right now. I believe we are at the bottom (or very close to) of biggest bust Ive seen in my lifetime (Im 50).
The value of your car is relative to other similar ones out there today so unless you paid top dollar for it at the top of the boom it is probably worth the same or a little more and it will stay there for a while. Value comes back to these things last. When people come out of their holes with a little more discretionary spending money you may get a bit more for it. Enjoy owning your car because of what it is not what it is worth. Tinker with it spend a little money on it if you can. Drive it or just look at it.
My position with cars is that they are a passion and I enjoy the hobby. I also like to make a profit if I can when I sell allowing me to continue with the hobby. This is the difference between us and people who rushed into the old car market because it was returning more profit than a painting on the wall. The only people whingeing about values are those who have done their arrse from buying at the top and have to get out. Other than that I think it is steady as she goes.
Cheers
Nick

What i would like like to know is why,just a few short years ago,the Monaros skyrocketed in price?

In the early 90s i remember guys practically begging me to buy their car.327s included.

The car hasnt changed,they still take a lot of getting used to and have that massive blind spot due to the sloping roof.

I was frequently ribbed for driving a wog chariot.

They were notorious for rust.

Now,people ask ridiculous sums of money for the same thing that you wouldnt have looked twice at not that long ago.

Time will tell.

it called the new romantic syndrome ,

guys late 30,s to 50,s wanting to feel young again
it takes them back to there youth , simply put this generation is the first one to have the luxury of indulging this passion which you might call
mid life crisis , mano pause , 200 k of the kids inheritance aint much to make you continue to feel young and cool again for another 10yrs ,
baby boomer toys , problem is the next generation dont have the bucks to continue it , so i believe in 10-25yrs time the arse will fall out of all these prices and kids inherit what they think in there opinions is not worth its money , and will cash it in for whatever bucks they get for it to spend on what they want to indulge in

ps , just my thoughts only

Edited by user Friday, 18 September 2009 5:36:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Mate my monaros are worth nothing as the are not and will never be for sale. lol... I still love seeing guys not afraid to drive them and even drag them. Cheers to them. CAll them stupid for racing or draging a classic but t least they are enjoying it.