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6cyl Engine block internal identification
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quote:
Originally posted by davequey74
mike i just seen this thread on oldholden, i'm not sure if you seen it but is well worth a look
http://oldholden.com/node/83243#comments
now explain those casting marks! lol
Just looks to me like Mason marks telling of the mould structures irregularities.
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Sorry,
you missed the fact that cooked blocks can soften the cast iron, and make it noticbly easier to machine, I had a 186 in this category, the machinist comented that it was easy to machine, and it failed after 10,000 miles, the bore moved, or wore out on one side!
Since then I have avoided cooked blocks like the plague!
Mike 81973
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quote:
Originally posted by castellan
Just looks to me like Mason marks telling of the mould structures irregularities.
????? Edited by user Wednesday, 12 May 2010 2:31:23 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Dave,
yes I have just obtained some more markings and now it does look as if the markings are mould makers marks rather than indicating a year or fiancial year.
Thanks for you insight into the moulding process,
Mike81973
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yeah iv'e seen a few crazy ones lately, all seem to be peoples initals!
maybe each moulder had there own mark? some who didn't want to be identified used marks like X or II others used intinals such as BB, i have even seen BOB in 1 block, lol
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quote:
Originally posted by davequey74
quote:
Originally posted by castellan
Just looks to me like Mason marks telling of the mould structures irregularities.
?????
???? as in what. I use similar type of markings in my job. but i would not expect any joe blow to fully understand what they mean or are. They are a guide for me in the structure imperfections ect.
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike81973
Hi, just today found a bit more.
Paul from Ausie Muscle Car Parts informs me, that Holden had two furnaces supplied from 4 lines of moulds, it now looks like the two different markings may be to indicate which furnace actually cast them.
I don't know if they poured blocks each day or not, still working on that one.
It appears that the rougher castings were just from courser moulding sand, the earliest course finish casting was 12 G 3 so far, and many castings from about this point were rougher to at least December 1973.
As above, looks like the 16 G 3 blocks will be from two seperate sources within Holden, and if Commonwealth Aircaft factory had any role it would probably to carry out machining modifications for some race teams or perhaps, even the valve clearance reliefs for the Bahurst 73 models, work not usually done within Holden.
With the 150 verses 250 Bathurst 73's it could be possible due to rule bending practiced by some teams that; despite 250 sets of special parts being made, that excess of 150 were fitted with these parts, then the remainder simply went into spare parts something like the main rival did with their alloy wheels. ( race teams can't operate without spare parts? )
It could even be that the clerk who was given the task of counting all the Special models simply missed counting some of Bathurst models or simply did not have room on the page for another row of these XU-1's,
we will never know!
It seems that several ( about ten ) of the ealiest Bathurst models were the main ones that were missed out, at least so far anyway.
One thing we know for sure, is that more than 150 bathurst models were produced.
Mike81973
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Mike I talked to Dave McLean again today. From his memory the very early JP blocks were GMH cast blocks, but the race teams using them were breaking them, so GMH got CAC to cast the JP blocks for them. GMH machined the blocks themselves, CAC only cast them. If you talk to Ian Tate he might also be able to shed some more light for you. I was discussing the X marks seen on some 1973 308's and also found on some red pollution heads. Both are probably just a mark put into the modified castings to make prototype/pilot blocks and heads for the next/upcoming change. For the blcoks the change would have been the HJ TH style block with the thicker rear webbing. The heads would have been cast for the first of the ADR27A V8's which appeared some time in HJ. _______________________________________________________ If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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Mike here again,
a update to add about late model XU-1 blocks being different.
Yes I am now confident that they were different, but I feel that where some are getting mixed up is that XU-1's were raced compeditively in 1974 and this is likely to be the period of special blocks comming through not 1973.
Don't tell me they didn't make XU-1's in 1974 because I know this.
I have proof that some mid 1974 XU-1 engines and HQ and likely Bedford and industrial 202 NP's had the additional stiffening webs behind the oil filter, ( I have a 12 G 4 QL engine with them ).
I have also seen this on a late 1974 NP engine that was sold on Ebay a year or two ago.
So to simplfy this, it seems that initally only one line of the two were producing the improved engine design so it was only some of the replacement XU-1 engines and production NP engines in mid and late 1974 that had the extra webs, while the old 1971- 2 -3 design also still continued until at least late 1975.
This likely explains why some race drivers like Dave Mclean will remember picking out different blocks, this will have been in 1974 and what he would have been looking for would be the three ribs behind the oil filter that some had, I don't care how smart he was, he would not have been able to tell by simply looking, what the meatalurgy of an individual block on the line was.
Quite obviously the cast iron was all the same and cast at Holden, like I said before it was just the specilized machine work that might have been outside Holden.
I have contacts who were close to Holden staff at the time and they totally deny that any engines were made outside Holden due to cost restraints, in fact they laughed quite loudly.
Mike
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Remember GMH was the majority owner of CAC! And it was located at Fishermans Bend right near to the engine plant.
I also assume you mean XU-1 engines were produced in 1974, not cars. The last 2 x XU-1 cars from each of Elizabeth and Acacia Ridge were all 9/73 build. The 2 x Elizabeth examples were completed on 18/9/73. The 2 x Acacia Ridge examples were not completed until 15/11/73 and 19/11/73. All 4 x of these cars had engines on the CAMS "magic" 150 list. The 15/11/73 car wasn't sold until 1/74 through Zupps in QLD. The car with the very last engine number on the 150 list was completed ar Elizabeth on 14/9/73. All this info is straight off the original GMH records.
Just wondering what you mean by industrial NP's? The only NP engines were complete engines sold through Nasco/GMP&A exclusively for XU-1 use. Bedfords didn't get 202's until later in CF from memory, they were all low comp 173's prior to that. Maybe 1977 or thereabouts? I remember (I think) that the early CF parts catalogue only lists the 173.
On the improved engine design, are you sure the extra stiffening didn't become the norm once the rope seal blocks arrived around HJ introduction? I'm sure this is what happened with the V8's. The stronger V8 block design first appeared around 5/73 with X on the castings to identify them, then appeared again in L34 and then from HJ onwards? This is only speculation of course.
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Thanks for your reply,
Yes I meant that NP blocks with the extra external ribs were used in mid 1974 for racing when they had to replace their engines, 1974 was a full on year as I believe for racing XU-1's they were quite sucessful and might have been more sucessful than 1972 or 1973.
I know about the last 1973 XU-1's taking some time to be finished, I even have heard that they ran out of special parts for some.
My XU-1 is a pre release model which looks to have had its engine removed from the batch of 150+ engines before the remaining 150 were started on, this would be why mine is a Bathurst XU-1 with a engine within the engine sequence but built before the 23rd of August. about 15 were released before the official start of Bathurst 73 production and someone forgot to count their engines!
So far I have not found any of the 16 G 3 150 engines that have the extra ribs but I am checking the 9 H 3 end of the 150 engines at the moment to see if it was only a mid 1974 thing or a handful of the last of the 150 might have scored the extra strengthened blocks.
( Nasco Part ) blocks engines were either a block with pistons or a a short motor ( ie a part of an engine )
as far as I know complete engine always had a prefix to suit its application and a sequential number of when it was made.
Government legislation may have insisted on this.
The NP blocks and pistons could perhaps be used in any Holden.
Obviously a short motor would be XU -1 only.
I have a mid 1974 block here and it has the extra strengthening ribs and as you say it has the rope seal, that was one thing on my mind actually, they probably changed both at the same time.
I might be wrong about the Bedfords perhaps the 202's came later, not something I have looked at.
From my studdies The LC XU-1 did not have replacement engines, the way this was done was to purchase a 186 block that had no number on it and get either your number transferred to the new block or in some cases a Police number was stamped.
There was one of these built up blocks that did not have a number on Ebay this week.
Mike
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I have only seen the stiffening ribs behind the rear of the oil filter rear side of the block. on all holden 6 cyl from VB commodore on.
I do believe the CF Bedfords were all 173 low comp then later on they were 202, maybe low comp. the 202 may of been to do with EGR when the ADR for these vans came in. it was not in 1976. but maybe 1979? the last CF may of been blue motors.
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[img][/img] The first year for the ribs was 1974 12 G 4 this is the earliest I have found so far, but I will keep looking. July and August were the time of year when changes took place so this might be quite close to the first engines to have this upgrade, note that not all engine recieved this upgrade, only one line of the two seems to have recieved it initially and it was late 1975 at least before they all had the upgrade. Mike Purpul Police Edited by user Saturday, 26 June 2010 4:09:48 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by castellan
I have only seen the stiffening ribs behind the rear of the oil filter rear side of the block. on all holden 6 cyl from VB commodore on.
I do believe the CF Bedfords were all 173 low comp then later on they were 202, maybe low comp. the 202 may of been to do with EGR when the ADR for these vans came in. it was not in 1976. but maybe 1979? the last CF may of been blue motors.
The CF 202's were high comp. I've never seen a blue motor in a CF, but I'm also not sure when they finished. _______________________________________________________ If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords? |
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Thanks,
There is still things to discover about 6cyl engines whereas the V8 has been covered reasonably well.
I do not know of a book based on 6cyl Holden engines and their variations,
WHEN IS SOMEONE GOING TO PRODUCE A BOOK?
Holden 6's went into Toranas, Holdens, Bedfords, concrete mixers and were available for any industrial application,
I have seen them in boats, wire winding machines, welders, Clark fork lifts, Landrovers, a landcruiser, Toyota Crown and water pumps.
Mike
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CF Bedford from 1969 to 1988 with the Poms.
And up to 1984 in NZ. then they got a more square front from 1981 with the blue motor from what i can work out.
Hear in aus maybe from 1973 to 1980? we got the shuttle in 1982.
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Thats interesting,
Any Idea of engine prefix?
Would it be something like FD for CF model 173, or FL for a 202?
Mike
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike81973
Thats interesting,
Any Idea of engine prefix?
Would it be something like FD for CF model 173, or FL for a 202?
Mike
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I have recorded FE for the lo-comp 173 CF Bedford & FL for the hi-comp 202 version. Dr Terry _________________________________________ When calculating a car restoration budget, be as accurate as you can & then double the final figure. It will be closer to the truth. |
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As above. That is reflected in the CF Bedford parts catalogue. Also BS for low comp 253 and BV for low comp 308 but in Bedford trucks not CF.
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Thanks guys,
Thought someone would know.
Mike
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