Welcome to the real world. Any sport that uses fossil fuel will always be won by who ever has the fattest wallet and is not scared to use it. Concours costs serious money,custom costs serious money,thanks to home equidity loans survivor now costs serious money. As long as everyone knows the rules and are judged equally its game on (pun intended). Who is more worthy to win a trophy, the person who builds a car from a wreck in their own garage, while recovering from cancer,the original owner who put the car on blocks in 1970 so that they could enter and win the 2010 Nationals,the $250k auction car that was bought 2 days before the Nationals that the sub-contracted mechanic has towed to the event and the owner has never seen let alone driven.THE BEST CAR WILL WIN! The back story is for the car magazines. The hot rod guys are now suffering because even at club level a home built rod cannot win a trophy,too many $100k cars.
How do we feel about historic racing OMG Bathurst Monaros being used for their designed purpose. With all that rubbing is racing those remaining NOS panels will be used up,after all,they are Bathurst Monaros.
My first monaro was fitted with 100w driving lights,oxy cut front springs,14x7,14x8 hotwires,ladder bars,2 inch lowering blocks,tramp rods,side exhaust,centre mount areial,CB radio under dash,rear window louvre,186s powerglide,308 m20,327 toploader,shelby suspension,slideaway sunroof,numerous rust repairs and was stolen and recovered.That car was drag raced,circuit raced,drove to work and towed numerous trailers.It is now back as a 186s powerglide GTS. Not the original colour or engine but still has that huge sunroof. Is it a survivor? I know I did my best to kill it.
Just a thought, although I think this may have been covered before. If the guy who bought the last 2 door commodore sorry 3rd generation monaro turned up at the Nationals and entered concours would that car win seeing it has traveled no miles and of course has no transportation damage?

Hi all

I am really enjoying the chat in the thread. Thanks again Bullitt and Warren.

Those who know me also know I have several other cars. I even have a bashed up old XF Falcon "stocker" speedway car I keep bashing it into the fence but I can't kill it!) and an XWGT that I drag race occasionally.





I just love cars and mingling with like minded car nuts.I like getting the odd trophy( which I see as acknolwledgement of Jeff Brown's meticulous restoration and Steve Clark's excellent maintenance of the car before I owned it). I am anal with the Monaro because it came to me in immaculate condition and I feel a responsibility to keep it that way. I would also like to make it more accurate over time. There is a window of opportunity to correct many of the things which are inaccurate. There are still people around who have the first hand knowledge to confirm things. this won't be possible as time goes by.

So I am anal with one of the cars and pretty average with the others.Sometimes we need to be anal otherwise there'd be no anally restored cars to set the standard....hmmmm....lol.
Cheers
Nick.

8 F1 World titles. 10 Bathurst wins......HA!HA!
Grafton Speedway Club Rookie of the year 2006...True....

bout time someone drives a GT like it should be driven, good to see you enjoying it nick

"Reputations are made and broken as soon as you enter or leave my shed.."

quote:

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Originally posted by BREDBO
Welcome to the real world. Any sport that uses fossil fuel will always be won by who ever has the fattest wallet and is not scared to use it. Concours costs serious money,custom costs serious money,thanks to home equidity loans survivor now costs serious money. As long as everyone knows the rules and are judged equally its game on (pun intended). Who is more worthy to win a trophy, the person who builds a car from a wreck in their own garage, while recovering from cancer,the original owner who put the car on blocks in 1970 so that they could enter and win the 2010 Nationals,the $250k auction car that was bought 2 days before the Nationals that the sub-contracted mechanic has towed to the event and the owner has never seen let alone driven.THE BEST CAR WILL WIN! The back story is for the car magazines. The hot rod guys are now suffering because even at club level a home built rod cannot win a trophy,too many $100k cars.
How do we feel about historic racing OMG Bathurst Monaros being used for their designed purpose. With all that rubbing is racing those remaining NOS panels will be used up,after all,they are Bathurst Monaros.
My first monaro was fitted with 100w driving lights,oxy cut front springs,14x7,14x8 hotwires,ladder bars,2 inch lowering blocks,tramp rods,side exhaust,centre mount areial,CB radio under dash,rear window louvre,186s powerglide,308 m20,327 toploader,shelby suspension,slideaway sunroof,numerous rust repairs and was stolen and recovered.That car was drag raced,circuit raced,drove to work and towed numerous trailers.It is now back as a 186s powerglide GTS. Not the original colour or engine but still has that huge sunroof. Is it a survivor? I know I did my best to kill it.
Just a thought, although I think this may have been covered before. If the guy who bought the last 2 door commodore sorry 3rd generation monaro turned up at the Nationals and entered concours would that car win seeing it has traveled no miles and of course has no transportation damage?

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Some excellent points Bredbo.
My only question is why people (not just yourself) are so cynical about V2 and VZ Monaro and keep referring to them as Commodores? They have significantly less in common with a Commodore than an original HK-HG Monaro does with a Kingswood or a GTS does with a Premier. In fact the V2 probably is the MOST uniquely Australian designed and built GMH product EVER. The V2 & VZ also have much less in common with VX2, VY, VY2 or VZ than those model HOLDEN utes do, it even gets it's own series designation for V2!

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?

bredbo i can assure you mate if i had a big fat wallet i wouldnt be scared to use it lol and its great you enjoy your cars i can remember doing some of the things you mentioned like gas axing the springs lowering blocks tramprods i also remember selling my ht gts 350 shell to a mate because his shell had rust everywhere i thought he was going to put his bits on my shell man was i wrong i get a phone call from him saying he has cut the roof of my shell i couldnt believe he did that but hey back then they were worth nothing!!

nick i cant wait to drive up to warwick and meet you and the other guys from here and have a good chat with you i dont know how my ass will be when i get there as me and my mates are driving up and we are doing it over 4 days so driving my hk for 4 days straight wil be fun but not on my ass lol anyway you have a great stable of cars and should be very proud of what you have!!

Edited by user Wednesday, 9 June 2010 8:21:29 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think that is easily answered & gets back to the point I was making.

IMO that part would be considered NOS for concours, unless it differed from the original in some way. If it came out of the same mould & made of the same material I don't think it would matter when it was made. The package with the date stamped on it would be thrown into the bin after the part was fitted to the car, so it's irrelevant.

As the rules state "Replacement parts must be period correct and of a type installed on the assembly line." Unless the judge could prove that it wasn't "period correct" what's the problem. When stocks of NOS items run out, hand-made items will be substituted. If they appear perfect, so what. What do the T Model Ford guys do ? Follow their example.

I think the problem really only raises its ugly head if somebody fits repro stuff which is dodgy, which unfortunately is all too often.

Dr Terry

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The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter.

I think in the US they refer to stuff reproduced from the original tooling, like the HZ GTS facias Rares have, as NORS which I think is New Old Reproduced Stock or something like that. I think this gets around the issue debated here.

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?

Funnily enough if you compare the mirror gasket I put up with a modern replacement I'd reckon anyone could pick the difference. This one is thinner and seems to be more defined ie, made in a better mould, and has the part number and GMH on it as well. Hopefully that mould still exists and will be part of the GMH resto parts thing.

As Warren has said, some guys are getting the whole concours judging thing all wrong.

If a talented panel beater can reproduce a replacement guard panel & fit it, paint it & make it good enough to appear as though it just left the factory & impress a judge, why can't any component of the car be made to the same level.

Remember these cars were not built by 21st century robots, they were put together by humans & as such, variations occurred in production. I have a big problem with cars that are 'over restored'. A concours car can still have 'factory' paint runs inside the boot side panels, that's they way most cars left the factory. It can still have imperfections in the way the underbonnet paint is finished. IMO a good concours car can only be as good as the best car the factory could produce on the day, which is no way perfect in every way.

There was a big drama a few years ago when a WWII style Jeep won the CMC/Shannons Eastern Creek Classic. This is arguably Australia's most prestigious multi-marque concours event & as such attracts everything from anal Jaguars & Cadillacs to top shelf Mustangs & Rolls Royce etc. Many could not understand how such a dowdy matt painted 'plain Jane' car could out-score impeccable 'prestige' marques. This car was a perfect example of how a Jeep would have been delivered new in the early 40s & simply out-scored the other cars using a well-proved judging/scoring system. The owner's attention to authentic detail (after some serious research) was stunning

The simple fact is that it is easier to recreate a factory look by starting with a simple car. As part of a judging panel we often chat together about how much easier it is to restore a Mini or early Holden than it is to do restore a Muscle car or something else from the late 60s/early 70s era.

Take a step back to think how we do all this as a hobby, we are not arguing over sheep stations. As someone else mentioned, trophies are cheap. It is up to the arbitrator on the day, (in this case Ben Stewart) to score the cars as he sees them. I know Ben & know of his integrity. If anyone knows a person more qualified or can do a better job, then come forward, there is always room for qualified/experienced judges in this arena.

Dr Terry

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The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter.

How much can you take off an 81837, say a HK, before its not an 81837 any more.? If you now fit those parts to an 80337 is it now an 81837 ?....Jack