why not have a class for each model in concourse e.g (81838 hk) (80737hk) (80337hk) etc could be done

now back to the carpet issue. ok it was optional to have carpet.
but to get some from the next model that is the wrong colour? (although similar enough to have been overlooked!)
you say if ht hg bonnet was on it it would attract attention & loose points. my whole point is that it should have lost points for wrong coloured carpet. thats all! ok it still wins. thats fine. im not saying it shouldnt

At no stage did i say it would be overlooked.

1) I was told it should not have carpet, I assured you it was an option

2) You claim it to be the wrong colour, I did not agree or disagree with you on this fact, only to say if it was it would attract the attention of the judges and loose points.

3) You stated it should not win because it had the wrong colour carpet. I said that if this car cannot win because it has the wrong colour carpet, then Paul has a simular issue with his car (not the carpet) and therefore could also not win.

I hope that is clear.

Warren

Warren, the carpet colour and the chrome scuff plates alone are just the beginning of the list of faults. These main two points were only raised as an issue the other night that the fact the car even passed scrutineering to qualify for the concours class.

I havent started with the list of things it could of lost points for if legitamitely judged in this class.

Once again all observers of these posts, I think the car is outstanding and a credit to Nick. I am in no way trying to take it down. Just trying to understand the judging processes and logic.

Simon,

If this is the case then might I suggest that you contact Ben Stewart direct anddiscuss these items with him. Obviously there is a major dispute on itmes 2, 3 and 4. I agree with Nick on these items being OK, but as has been pointed out many times in the past, I do not know a lot about these cars.

So to get the facts right with all of the other discrepencies, rather than air them here, please contact Ben and or Nick.

Warren

thats exactly what its all about.
i did a 4059klm round trip in my crusty ole ute (with absolutely nothing original)& enjoyed the drive, the cars, the people & the atmosphere of the whole event
there were some very exceptional monaros,(one for everyones taste.)
& plenty of fresh ones & ones that ive never seen b4.
its true that some just pick the faults,& dont properly admire the good points as much, but each to their own i guess.
i deal with enquiries every week of people wanting perfect original rust free hk guards, not ht/g type,or ht v8 rocker covers & not hg ones,or 3 rims dated 6/70 to match theirs, or a nos part they inspect with a microscope to find an imperfection, or a rechromed tail light that has one minute bubble! (better than any nos one)
they dont tell me how good 95% of it is
they only pick the 5% fault.!!!!!!!!!!!
therefore if i see a wrong part on a car that doesnt belong thereof course i notice it & will point it out,
concours & survivor are obviously th difficult categories.
where close enough or almost right detracts points
if you enter your car in a show, its there to be judged. ie good & bad overall, & only one winner. if it comes down to 2 winners, then you have to look deeper, ie correct matching bolt heads,or even removing tyres date coded rims
the whole point about that carpet in the winning hk is just that it seems to have been overlooked for 6 years now.let alone several other things like aftermarket venetian (no capping on top of each blind) blah blah blah
i cant beleive it was not recognised as wrong colour?( if it was , surely it could have been changed to correct by now)
would be better off with black carpet (at least that would match the console)
otherwise shoulda put nos ht morrocan maroon carpet in!
i think the judging system need a major overhaul to make it fair on all vehicles entered.
we dont want to have to judge the judges now do we

if anyone out there can find one good thing on my ute? please let me know & i will change it ( will take it off & sell it)

driven into the ground everyday now for 15yrs & still holdn together regards dirty davo

www.bellarineclassicautos.com.au

quote:

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Originally posted by blameyone
The greatest percentage of fans and observers that turned up don,t notice all these things being brought up here, just beautifully presented cars by many very talented and enthusiastic owners and builders. Myself and 2 very keen friends enjoyed the journey to Warrick from Canberra and return and were delighted with the assembly of all the Monaros. Well done Warren, Kaz and the rest of team. I had the same opportunity to inspect and pull apart all those beautiful monaros particularly the HKs and now that all these questions are being asked. Tell me though where it puts some of these HKs. For example a very highly judged red HK GTS 327 and a very well regarded yellow HK GTS 307 both with HT or HG GTS front guards on them. Two very beautiful cars and all credit to the owners nevertheless and no doubt what future entrants cars will be judged against as is happening right here and now....Jack

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i have only stated that nick has a later model carpet which is also wrong colour in his car
ht antique gold was not on any options list for hk,
therefore i assumed it was a modification & should not be eligible in concours section
i didnt write the rules!!

all original venetians in holdens had a plastic capping on top edge of each blind (& wagons had rubber capping on back end of each blind)
any aftermarket ones never did, although still being made by same manufacturer since 1969 in SA (obrien auto shades)

quote:

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Originally posted by Warren Turnbull
So who said the colour of the carpet was not considered in the process of deciding a winner?

I take it you, or someone you know, must have seen the judging sheets for Nick's car. I am yet to see them so cannot comment.

As you, or someone you know, has seen the judgng sheets, do you feel that they incorrectly added points to Paul's car and missed items on Nick's car?

I am unsure about your comment on the venetian, I purchased one well before they were remanufacturing them and do not understand what you mean about the rubber end bits. It has ben many years since i owned mine so memory may have lost the full info.

Why does he have to change the carpet? if he cannot find the exact correct carpet then he shoud loose a point if he has the wrong carpet. Sounds fair to me. You seem to think he should not win under any circumstances if it has the wrong colour carpet. Or am I reading you incorrectly? (easy to do with typed responses)

Warren

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have only stated that nick has a later model carpet which is also wrong colour in his car
ht antique gold was not on any options list for hk,
therefore i assumed it was a modification & should not be eligible in concours section i didnt write the rules!!

Yes, in the true sense I suppose it is a modification. (but so to is the fitment of any rare spares item)

If you consider this modification for the car not to be eligble for concours then Paul's would be in he same boat. I cannot comment on the HT as I had little to do with that at the event.

Can you think of anything to stop the HT from be eligble? No need to state here. If not then maybe you should campaigne to the committee that they consider awarding the HT owner a trophy.

Warren

well there you go!
for concours, anything standard or optional is applicable
nothing from later model, nothing reproduced etc
rules are rules. if youre lenient on one then you have to be on others.
so that means the 2 hks are out of concours.
will look into the ht now & see whether it was a contender

quote:

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Originally posted by Warren Turnbull
have only stated that nick has a later model carpet which is also wrong colour in his car
ht antique gold was not on any options list for hk,
therefore i assumed it was a modification & should not be eligible in concours section i didnt write the rules!!

Yes, in the true sense I suppose it is a modification. (but so to is the fitment of any rare spares item)

If you consider this modification for the car not to be eligble for concours then Paul's would be in he same boat. I cannot comment on the HT as I had little to do with that at the event.

Can you think of anything to stop the HT from be eligble? No need to state here. If not then maybe you should campaigne to the committee that they consider awarding the HT owner a trophy.

Warren

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I can tell you now, you are not likely to find any Monaro that will qualiry for concours. (or any make for that matter) All consumables and parts must be replaced with parts manufactured at the same time as the car and must be in NEW condition.

even reconditioning is modified, for eaxample it is illegal to cadnium plate and the new replacement palating is the wrong colour, so easy, drop the class.

Replacement trim must be NOS not from a trimmer.

Even the paint, they do not make the same pigments as lead is no longer used, so I doubt any of the cars are even the right colour.

It just gets worse.

Or you could look at Nick's carpet as replaced with the wrong colour carpet. It attracts the attention of the judges and looses points. Just like guards, bonnets etc.

Warren

Edited by user Saturday, 18 September 2010 2:37:42 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

right from the start, i was only hilighting the fact that the carpet was wrong model & colour. if it was black hk carpet to match console i woulnt have made a sound.
i would like to check th judging sheets for last 3 nats to see whether it lost points for that. surely if it did he would have changed it b4 ballarat , or at least by warwick
that is my whole point from th start

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr Terry

quote:

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Originally posted by dirty davo
well there you go!
for concours, anything standard or optional is applicable
nothing from later model, nothing reproduced etc
rules are rules. if youre lenient on one then you have to be on others.
so that means the 2 hks are out of concours.
will look into the ht now & see whether it was a contender

quote:

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Originally posted by Warren Turnbull
have only stated that nick has a later model carpet which is also wrong colour in his car
ht antique gold was not on any options list for hk,
therefore i assumed it was a modification & should not be eligible in concours section i didnt write the rules!!

Yes, in the true sense I suppose it is a modification. (but so to is the fitment of any rare spares item)

If you consider this modification for the car not to be eligble for concours then Paul's would be in he same boat. I cannot comment on the HT as I had little to do with that at the event.

Can you think of anything to stop the HT from be eligble? No need to state here. If not then maybe you should campaigne to the committee that they consider awarding the HT owner a trophy.

Warren

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davo, I think you are missing the point.

Where is it written that are car has to be perfect for it just to enter a concours event ? If the car was perfect , judging wouldn't be required. A certain level of 'modification' would disqualify entry, but if it is allowed to enter then it is judged accordingly.

Where is it written that reproduction parts are not allowed at all. If a 'perfect' repro part is fitted then who is to know. If a repro part is doggy, then again it can be judged accordingly. The carpet for example, would be judged if it were deemed to be non-original colour or style. Why should it exclude entry ?

Certain visual modifications or non-factory parts would exclude entry. I think non-standard paint, custom interior trim, lowered suspension or alloy wheels would be obvious contenders. I've not read the rules for concours at the Warwick nationals, but they would run along similar lines to others that I've judged where they set a standard for entry & checked against the rules before competition. Once entered they are judged & the winner is the winner, according to the rules. Why would the organisers make it so tough just to enter, they would have a very small entry list, if any that's for sure.


Dr Terry



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When calculating a car restoration budget, be as accurate as you can & then double the final figure. It will be closer to the truth.

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