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HK GTS 327 Type 1 & 2 Differences.
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Silverfox Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, 18 September 2011 11:43:29 PM(UTC)
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Hi

I am following with interest Bullit's HK307 Manifold thread. Some good points coming out of it.

I've owned my T2 GTS 327 Brizzy car for some years now. I am learning that there are quite a few differences between Type one and two cars. Also I feel that there would be differences from plant to plant.

But because I am a relatively new comer to Monaro ownership I am a bit confused.

Although I would not consider changing some things that (the late) Jeff Brown did in his excellent restoration of this car (I know the first thing you will notice is the glossy engine bay paint finish. That is one thing I would not touch. I think it is one of Jeff's signatures).

I would love to make sure that some of the things which I feel could be incorrect actually are incorrect.

Over all I think it is fairly close to being fully correct. Byron, you have seen the car up close and I would welcome your comments in this post.

Two things which come to mind immediately are: 1) The radiator cowl. It seems to be made of plastic or ABS with a GM part number on the top. I understand it was new old stock bought for the resto.
2) The heater box which is almost black Not the gel coated light grey. I have been told it should be light grey but I've seen so many type ones with the light grey box I am confused. Was that a Brisbane thing?

I would like to make this car as accurate as possible. This is becoming more important as time marches on. Not just for me but to all who own similar cars.

Cheers
Nick Moran
Yamba.

Here's a pic of the engine bay:

Edited by user Sunday, 3 January 2021 7:59:37 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, 19 September 2011 2:11:44 AM(UTC)
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Nick

You need to pull Ben aside with the car and go over it. And (tongue in cheek) be quiet for 10 minutes to let Ben concentrate while he is looking at it! Then you'll know what you need to know.
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The HKTG Garage Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, 19 September 2011 3:19:36 AM(UTC)
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It is a bit hard to tell from the photo you have listed for some things but I'll tell you what I can see from it.

Apart from the engine bay paint being far too glossy and perfect:

* The top radiator hose clamp at the housing end appears to be silver but should actually be gold like the one in the foreground.
* Are the three bolts on the steering box cover gold? They appear to be. They should be silver. The nut that retains the worm adjusting screw is the only gold that should be seen here.
* The left firewall rod bracket (drivers side) should be silver. Everything else should be gold except the attaching screws which are silver. Everything in your photo appears to be a dull gold. Hard to tell.
* Washer hose retaining clip on bonnet underside should be black zinc.
* The wiper motor cannister seems to be unplated. It should be gold.
* Clip on pcv hose from booster should be a dark red.
* Your brake lines to the master cylinder have too many bends in them. They should be a lot straighter in places.
* Is that a rare spares brake fluid sticker? It appears to be in the photo but hard to tell. Theirs is the worst and most inaccurate of so called reproductions. There are some much better alternatives available.
* I believe the finish on your manifolds to be accurate and correct.

I'd need to know the month and year of build to work out the heater box but most or all type 2 I have seen had a black heater box.

If radiator fan shroud was nos item then it would be correct. Looks right to me. There's nothing else it could be unless you have consciously purchased a recent reproduction item.

Great colour. Picardy Red is my favourite. I have a genuine Dulux paint tin full of Picardy Red dated 9/68. About 10 litres. It is the original lead based paint and it is in useable condition.

Edited by user Monday, 19 September 2011 3:23:21 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Silverfox Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, 19 September 2011 4:17:44 AM(UTC)
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Hi Byron and Simon.

Thank you for your comments. If you were at last year's National you might remember this car. (Byron knows it) A trophy was created in the name of its restorer. The Jeff Brown memorial trophy for excellence. Ben Stewart and Tony M won the trophy which I was privileged to present to Ben.

This Monaro, I have been told, was "Car of the day" or "General Motors-Holden's" choice at the first Nationals in 1998. I am also told it was awarded best HK at the second Nationals in 2000. Jeff Brown is remembered as a stalwart Sydney Club member and as I understand it this car (and several others) set the standard for what has grown into the high standard of cars presented today. I did not buy the radiator cowl Jeff Brown did. I have bought virtually nothing for the car. Its resto was completed before 1998 and I cannot get detail on this part of the cars life because Jeff is no longer around. The reason the car is so incredibly well preserved is thanks to Steve Clarke (and of course Jeff) who treated it like a baby. I bought it as it presents today. All I did was put it on a hoist, clean and detail it because it had very light soiling from about 8oooKs since 1998.

As time goes on I am learning more about it thanks to people like you and also those in the fraternity who knew Jeff Brown. In my opinion I am not an owner of a car like this, I'm simply a custodian. I feel a responsibility to look after it and any work or changes made to it should be with historical accuracy in mind. It is also why I have put it out to open discussion. It would be a satisfying challenge for me and would be helpful to others who are looking to make their cars more accurate through Forums like this one. Might sound a bit w@nky but that is my position.

I'll put a few more pics up soon.

Edited by user Monday, 19 September 2011 4:20:30 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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bullitljv8 Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, 19 September 2011 5:09:32 AM(UTC)
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ok nic from where i sit if you are trying to get this car back to original condition you MUST get away from what the previous owner did thats history.... taking nothing away from what he has done but as you rightly say your now the custodian of this car now so unless your willing to move on and change all the things that are not right then it will never be right...you say you WILL NOT change the engine bay colour well if you dont it will always be wrong.....so i guess you have to make up your mind what your really trying to do with this car first and formost.... if your trying to preserve what the previous owner did then why change anything at all as the way i see it there is no point in only doing some things and not others....
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Silverfox Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, 19 September 2011 7:42:21 AM(UTC)
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Hi Bullit
I think you might have seen the car at the National.
You're quite right. I agree I must get away from what Jeff has done but there are a few things which deserve his respect.
Your reply is helping me articulate what I am trying to achieve. I am a little torn by the position the car occupies in the Monaro fraternity. As you have probably worked out by now I do respect the fraternity. I have been made feel most welcome and I have had nothing but help and goodwill from nearrly everyone I've met since buying this car.
This is how I see it. Jeff Brown (and his work) is remembered by many in Monaro circles. The car is known as the Jeff Brown(and the Steve Clark) car, not the Nick Moran car and I don't mind that. I openly state that those two guys did the hard yards with it... I just bought it pretty much as is.

Because I bought this car I have become curious about the differences between type one and two HKs and "authentic category" HKs generally.
The shiny black paint in the engine bay is the one thing I feel strongly about keeping because it is probably the largest "wrong" part of the car. As such it is also the biggest "signature" from Jeff Brown. It is also an excellent example of a nicely presented incorrect engine bay, besides, we all know what the paint finish should be there so at the end of the day , unless I (personally) am chasing points in concours or "factory authentic" why does it matter?
The car won a trophy in "mild custom" at the last National. I entered in that category because as I saw it (and interpereted the rules) this was the same type of category as "contemporary" at other events.
There are other things which are more obscure and subject to differing opinion regarding what is correct about T1&2 HKs and HKs generally which I would like to see discussed which will help all HK owners including me. It is also becoming more important historically speaking.
Thanks again.
Cheers
Nick.
"HOLDEN MONARO. OUT TO DRIVE YOU WILD!"
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Silverfox Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, 19 September 2011 8:08:45 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by HKTG Parts Recovery
It is a bit hard to tell from the photo you have listed for some things but I'll tell you what I can see from it.

Apart from the engine bay paint being far too glossy and perfect:

* The top radiator hose clamp at the housing end appears to be silver but should actually be gold like the one in the foreground.
* Are the three bolts on the steering box cover gold? They appear to be. They should be silver. The nut that retains the worm adjusting screw is the only gold that should be seen here.
* The left firewall rod bracket (drivers side) should be silver. Everything else should be gold except the attaching screws which are silver. Everything in your photo appears to be a dull gold. Hard to tell.
* Washer hose retaining clip on bonnet underside should be black zinc.
* The wiper motor cannister seems to be unplated. It should be gold.
* Clip on pcv hose from booster should be a dark red.
* Your brake lines to the master cylinder have too many bends in them. They should be a lot straighter in places.
* Is that a rare spares brake fluid sticker? It appears to be in the photo but hard to tell. Theirs is the worst and most inaccurate of so called reproductions. There are some much better alternatives available.
* I believe the finish on your manifolds to be accurate and correct.

I'd need to know the month and year of build to work out the heater box but most or all type 2 I have seen had a black heater box.

If radiator fan shroud was nos item then it would be correct. Looks right to me. There's nothing else it could be unless you have consciously purchased a recent reproduction item.

Great colour. Picardy Red is my favourite. I have a genuine Dulux paint tin full of Picardy Red dated 9/68. About 10 litres. It is the original lead based paint and it is in useable condition.


I think the three steering bolt setscrews are silver.
The throttle bracket is gold.
The wiper motor cover is as described...old... that's "patina"...lol
The part # sticker on the booster was given to me by a friend. He had a small batch made and are somewhat better than Rare's.
After reading the HK307 manifold thread I am now aware that the exhaust manifolds were painted. I think mine were not when the car was restored. Also, Ben Stewart told they were painted. Over time the orange paint went darker and eventually disappeared. So unpainted exhaust manifolds might be interpereted as having been painted....
The shroud was definitely bought by Jeff back in the early nineties when you could still find them NOS.
Cheers
Nick
"HOLDEN MONARO. OUT TO DRIVE YOU WILD!"
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Sebring Orange Offline
#8 Posted : Monday, 19 September 2011 10:19:49 PM(UTC)
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Hi Nic , it also has a HT HG 350 Automatic Air Cleaner (should be left facing snorkel , and a HT HG 350 Top Hose . Even though the Type 2 327 deleted the Front Oil filler they still used the ram horn Top Radiator hose . Not a big deal . Also its got a 307 air cleaner wingnut , should be a chrome diecast one with "ESS 1/4 " on it like the 6 cylinders and Holden V8s . Should also have a "6 dimple" entre pressing air cleaner lid . Hope that helps .

Edited by user Monday, 19 September 2011 10:20:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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HK1837 Offline
#9 Posted : Monday, 19 September 2011 11:04:08 PM(UTC)
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Nick

I just rememebered about the gloss engine bay. My Yellow HK GTS327 (2-H5) left the Pagewood plant with a gloss acrylic Warrigal black engine bay. My mate's Warwick Yellow GTS (307 auto 20-H5) also had a gloss engine bay. I know my car was the Sydney press/dealer release car so I suppose it makes sense it would be gloss. My mate's car may have been used for a similar purpose. I do remember hearing there were a lot of other early cars with gloss engine bays. Not sure if it helps you much, but it does mean that not all GTS327's had the same finish.
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edelbrock1 Offline
#10 Posted : Tuesday, 20 September 2011 5:02:30 AM(UTC)
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As far as I knew the air cleaner nut that Nick has is correct. The cast one is for 6 cylinder. But the one pictured is for 307 and 327.
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The HKTG Garage Offline
#11 Posted : Tuesday, 20 September 2011 5:49:36 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by edelbrock1
As far as I knew the air cleaner nut that Nick has is correct. The cast one is for 6 cylinder. But the one pictured is for 307 and 327.


No. Sebring Orange is correct. I didnt notice. I was looking elsewhere.
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Sebring Orange Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, 20 September 2011 8:26:53 AM(UTC)
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The 6 Cyl/253/308 and 327 350 Wingnut is the same its just chrome on the 327 350 . LC GTR use them in chrome also . SP1919 is the number . 307 use the pressed steel wingnut in black .
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Silverfox Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, 20 September 2011 9:25:23 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the comments. Please keep them coming.

Re aircleaner, could swap for correct item. The bottom half was a NOS item when the car was resto'd. Is as new.

I have learnt heaps but am a babe in the woods with some things.

What is a "6 dimple" entre pressing air cleaner lid ?
What Air cleaner lid do I have?
What is a ram horn Top Radiator hose ?
FYI "ESS 1/4" diecast wingnuts were common items available from Engineers' Suppliers. I worked with J.Blackwood &Son Ltd. back in the eighties and they were always in stock. Mine came from my father's toolbox. It was dull so I buffed it slightly. I could polish it more to give a chromed look. They're probably still available.
I would not risk getting a diecast one chromed. It is possible but the nut can be damaged in the process.
Cheers
Nick
"HOLDEN MONARO. OUT TO DRIVE YOU WILD!"
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edelbrock1 Offline
#14 Posted : Tuesday, 20 September 2011 4:00:30 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by HKTG Parts Recovery
quote:
Originally posted by edelbrock1
As far as I knew the air cleaner nut that Nick has is correct. The cast one is for 6 cylinder. But the one pictured is for 307 and 327.


No. Sebring Orange is correct. I didnt notice. I was looking elsewhere.



Ah well.. there ya go, you learn something everyday. Cheers.
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dirty davo Offline
#15 Posted : Tuesday, 20 September 2011 6:24:21 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by edelbrock1
quote:
Originally posted by HKTG Parts Recovery
quote:
Originally posted by edelbrock1
As far as I knew the air cleaner nut that Nick has is correct. The cast one is for 6 cylinder. But the one pictured is for 307 and 327.


No. Sebring Orange is correct. I didnt notice. I was looking elsewhere.



Ah well.. there ya go, you learn something everyday. Cheers.


you need the large blue check valve for brake booster (i still have a couple o NOS ones if interested)
i think 327s shoulda had heavy duty battery also which was red caps

regards DD 0412109239

www.bellarineclassicautos.com.au
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Sebring Orange Offline
#16 Posted : Tuesday, 20 September 2011 8:09:01 PM(UTC)
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6 Dimple/Dot Lid
Air Cleaner Wingnut
Top Ram Type Hose
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blameyone Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, 21 September 2011 10:46:56 AM(UTC)
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Is there any difference between radiator hose p/n 7434360 as fitted to Type 1 327s and p/n 7434645 shown above.?....Jack
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Sebring Orange Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, 21 September 2011 10:23:46 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by blameyone
Is there any difference between radiator hose p/n 7434360 as fitted to Type 1 327s and p/n 7434645 shown above.?....Jack


Never Heard of that Part number , where did 7434360 come from ?
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80569K Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, 22 September 2011 4:13:25 AM(UTC)
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My HK parts catalogue M36640 mentions only the 2 numbers in the photo, it doesn't seem to mention the type 2 327, so perhaps it is an early edition.
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blameyone Offline
#20 Posted : Thursday, 22 September 2011 6:24:21 AM(UTC)
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Thats why I asked the ?. You will notice though it is the next number up from hose 7434359 which makes me think it was a part early number that was superceded by 7434645. It came off a T1 327 as a pair with 7434359...Jack
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