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Originally posted by HKTG Parts Recovery

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Originally posted by HK1837
I think Simon you'll find that with trim A is bench and B is buckets. That is how it is in HQ. B doesn't get you Kingswood trim, maybe Kingswood seats but the door trims and other bits remain the same. C would be interesting, as like the 308 3spd it was probably not officially available.

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Sorry Byron but this is not the case. I am currently researching for Warren on this and I have tags as proof. The Belmonts reTained the Belmont trim except for when ordered with buckets the bucket seat trim pattern was Kingswood. There is no such thing as Belmont trim on a bucket seat.

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I think that is what I said? Buckets got you Kingswood seats but the rest of the trim is as per normal Belmont (this is how HQ B trim is that i've seen so far on HQ commercials and Sandmans). Or do you mean the whole trim was Kingswood? If that was the case wouldn't it make more sense to have E trim (Kingswood) because that is what it'd be? All interesting stuff, will be good to see the final results.

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Originally posted by tranx
My HG van's original colour is Frost Blue with Twilight Blue interior. Originally it had a 202 with a 4 speed, heater and radio. Build date Sept 71.

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if original 202 & 4spd, it would have been saginaw!!

id like to see th tunnel in that (to confirm)

regards DD

www.bellarineclassicautos.com.au

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Originally posted by HK1837
I had a look at the GMH Engineering specifications for the 3spd boxes yesterday. The HT V8 3spd is rated at from memory 410ft-lbs and the 6cyl 3spd plus HG onwards V8 3spd is 210ft-lbs. So there is no way GMH would have build a 308 3spd HG at an assembly plant with a HG spec V8 3spd. What is in the parts catalogue will most likely be an artifact from where they must have intended to fit the HT V8 3spd behind the 308. The fact this box was gone after HT and replaced by the 6cyl version (with longer input shaft) is evidence enough that there was no intention of a 308 3spd going into production. Those that exist out there with paperwork must have been a dealer done thing, but it must have been at a pretty penny too as they would have to have got an engine out of a GTS or Brougham, plus ordered the different flywheel, clutch etc for it. Or they were internal cars built during the availability of the HT V8 3spd box. Any factory example would have to have a 10-bolt as well as the torque limit of the banjo would be exceeded with a 308 and manual box.
If anyone knows of a supposed factory 308 3spd HG (or HT) can you get the build date and PSN off the vehicle?

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so wasnt 3spd available in HQ 308 either??

I'm with HK1837, I doubt very much that GMH ever put a L31/M15 combination into a production Holden. The only V8 fitted to an M15 was the 253.

I believe that the last V8/M15 was in an HZ. WB V8s were 4-sp man or 3-sp auto only. 3-sp column manuals were 6-cyl only in WB.

Dr Terry

I can't argue with the logic Simon, just the Engineering documentation suggests otherwise. And the ordering procedure and form rule it out (also expicitely states against L31 "not with column shift"). The figures come from HT Engineering data. 307 or 308 manual was ALWAYS 10-bolt, and always standard with M21. So if GMH built a manual 308 ute or van it would have a 10-bolt and M21. (I didn't check, is there a tailshaft in the HG catalogue for a V8 3spd with 10-bolt? That could nail it either way). If cars turn up with 308 and 3spd with banjo they logically can't be GMH normal production build. Many dealers did non-sanctioned things by GMH so I would not be surprised if one built a 308 3spd HG van. Or the one you saw was a really early vehicle where the concept was experimented with and it was a HT V8 box.
Don't be surprised with artifacts in the HG parts catalogues. They've all got them. Parts catalogues are the least reliable GMH source of historical information. I bet the 308 3spd references are gone in the catalogue amendments (I don't have them).
Always happy to be wrong though, but to date I haven't found too much (if anything) wrong in ordering procedures. Ordering procedures don't rule out special internal stuff though, and these were normally sold off to the public through dealers. Again my guess is if HG 308 3spds were internal builds they would (by Engineering docs) have to have had a HT V8 3spd and would have been some kind of internal vehicle, not an ordered vehicle.

I also get all the stuff about the strength of the 3spd, and it's similarity to the aussie 4spds, and the M21 aussie 4spd was used behind the 308. I haven't seen what they rated the M21 aussie box as, but we all know they are not exactly suited to a 308 especially the high performance versions (HJ, 10/74 onwards LH and L34).

Yes, very late.

I've never heard of one. GTS, Brougham and Monaro finished in the last days of April. Colours were being deleted in early May. So they were obviously ramping down ready for HQ volume production. Maybe it was sold in July and the owner is mixed up?

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Originally posted by HKTG Parts Recovery

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Originally posted by HK1837

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Sorry Byron but I'm going to continue to dispute that a 308 was not made available with a 3 speed all synchro behind it. For one as I said previously I have seen the combination in a stock unrestored HG van and secondly, it would of been too big a mistake for Holden to confirm the combination in the HG Parts catalogue that would of been printed and distributed in the 100's to dealers nationwide, and not send out an ammendment rectifying it if wrong.

Where do you get the data of 410ft-lbs for 8 cylinder and 210ft-lbs for 6 from? The ONLY differences in the box from V8 to 6 in a HT was the ratios and the input shaft, as you mentioned. Also, as you mentioned the HG 3 speed was the same ratio for all HG whether they were 6 or 8. No other differences.

I spoke to a manual tranmission specialist today. He has been in business for 37 years. I spoke to him at great lengths about this topic. He showed me many boxes and internals and said that there are no differences between 6 and 8 except for the input shaft. He also verified that the 3 sped all synchro would of had no problem behind a 308.

May be someone out there in Holden land can elaborate on this topic. May be they know of someone who had this driveline combo.

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Greetings, A most interesting topic. The technical specifications for the gearbox will be found in the features book as well as the engineering publications. The HT is the only model that got the strong 3-speed manual transmission, not the HG. It was not made at the time the HG was built. This transmission has different ratios in first, second and reverse speeds to the normal 3-speed all-synchro. Because of this a number of parts will be different. The guy with 37 years experience isn't much chop here, but maybe he has never seen one of these gearboxes?

308 and 3-speed manual in HG is another myth. The red van mentioned is a made-up creation at best. Everybody knows that parts books contain huge errors and misleading information. HG series has the most addendums of all models and for good reasons too.

Let's see some proof in the form of pictures and ID plates of a 308 3-speed manual HG.

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Originally posted by HK1837
I can't argue with the logic Simon, just the Engineering documentation suggests otherwise. And the ordering procedure and form rule it out (also expicitely states against L31 "not with column shift"). The figures come from HT Engineering data. 307 or 308 manual was ALWAYS 10-bolt, and always standard with M21. So if GMH built a manual 308 ute or van it would have a 10-bolt and M21. (I didn't check, is there a tailshaft in the HG catalogue for a V8 3spd with 10-bolt? That could nail it either way). If cars turn up with 308 and 3spd with banjo they logically can't be GMH normal production build. Many dealers did non-sanctioned things by GMH so I would not be surprised if one built a 308 3spd HG van. Or the one you saw was a really early vehicle where the concept was experimented with and it was a HT V8 box.
Don't be surprised with artifacts in the HG parts catalogues. They've all got them. Parts catalogues are the least reliable GMH source of historical information. I bet the 308 3spd references are gone in the catalogue amendments (I don't have them).
Always happy to be wrong though, but to date I haven't found too much (if anything) wrong in ordering procedures. Ordering procedures don't rule out special internal stuff though, and these were normally sold off to the public through dealers. Again my guess is if HG 308 3spds were internal builds they would (by Engineering docs) have to have had a HT V8 3spd and would have been some kind of internal vehicle, not an ordered vehicle.

I also get all the stuff about the strength of the 3spd, and it's similarity to the aussie 4spds, and the M21 aussie 4spd was used behind the 308. I haven't seen what they rated the M21 aussie box as, but we all know they are not exactly suited to a 308 especially the high performance versions (HJ, 10/74 onwards LH and L34).

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would you have a copy of th "HT engineering data" available byron?

happy to pay you for it.

regards DD

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Originally posted by HKTG Parts Recovery

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You are incorrect again git. Not much of a guru, so I don't need to look out for you coming through. For the last time, the three speed all synchro gearbox that was made available behind the HT V8 WAS NOT A STRONGER BOX!!!! It offered different ratios to the six and obviously the longer input shaft. Nothing else. So, in the HG, all three speed synchro boxes were the SAME BOX with the SAME RATIOS, except for the longer input shaft for the V8's.

For your information, git, the gearbox mechanic I mentioned with 37 years experience had on his bench a Saginaw 4 speed, an Aussie 4 speed, an all synchro 3 speed and an HT V8 specific ratio three speed, all on the bench, all in pieces and he was able to show me the differences.

The topic title of this thread is 'HG Panelvan info'. I am saying that the all synchro three speed gearbox in the HG range was capable of being put behind a 161 or a 308, as the HG parts catalogue suggests the parts are availAble for.

If you knew anything, you'd know the id plates on an HK HT HG don't indicate transmission nor do they differentiate between 253 or 308. Better go back and read some more books, git.
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Greetings HKTG Parts Recovery,

I have done as you requested and read some more. I hope you have read the books I suggested as that is where the correct info lies. I was well aware the topic was about 'HG Panelvan info'. It is very important to provide correct info when asked and not some made-up fantasy. The following HG Commercial (including the panel van models) powertrain combinations were available from the factory -
Trimatic with all engines
3-speed manual with all engines EXCEPT 308 V8
4-speed manual with V8 engines only

So you see a 308 V8 with 3-speed manual is a fantasy. That van you mention is also most likely a fantasy by the sound of things with probably HG80170 as the model # and not HG80270 as it would have with a factory V8 set-up. I know a little about HG id model codes.

I am glad you saw all the differences in the gearboxes you were looking at. The HT V8 3 speed box is a very different box to the regular one in many ways as you confirm. Not only is the part number for the gearbox different but so too are the part numbers for some (not all) major components within. In HG, this stronger box is not on offer. Have a look at the specifications of the HT 3 speed manual gearboxes and all will be revealed as to strength, ratios, clutch gears, counter gears, etc., etc.

Holden didn't offer the 308 V8 and 3 speed manual combination in HG. Maybe it is the Trimtaic which is also a 3 speed gearbox that is confusing you? 308 V8 and Trimatic was an option as listed above.