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johnperth Offline
#1 Posted : Saturday, 8 September 2012 9:08:39 AM(UTC)
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Holden must be a bit peeved. For years they were trying to get permission from head office to flog holdens in UK etc., and were continually refused because GM Europe objected they did not want the competition to Opel.
Now Opel is exporting to Australia, and have the nerve to be pushing the Astra name that they expected holden to push a few years ago.
Of course the Holden Commodore was originally based on the opel Kommodore, but the opel tended to fall apart on Australian roads and had to be extensively rebuilt so virtually nothing was interchangeable.
Then the Opel could not tow anything heavy as the body stretched and the doors would not close.
And the europeans could not even be bothered to make the Astra suitable for Australia, with the turn indicator and wiper controls on the wrong side of the steerin column.
Holden should have another go at exporting - what's ok for the europeans should be ok for Australia.
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80569K Offline
#2 Posted : Saturday, 8 September 2012 8:00:22 PM(UTC)
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The Europeans are a bit like the yank's, ie, if it wasn't their idea and didn't come their country it must be crap.

My brother in law tried to sell aluminium pick up trays in the States, they wouldn't touch them because they'd never heard of them, it wasn't their idea and they must be crap because we only use steel ones.
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Dr Terry Offline
#3 Posted : Sunday, 9 September 2012 2:55:59 AM(UTC)
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Opel & Holden aren't selling against each other. Opel Australia's head office is at Holden's head office in Port Melbourne. GM are in the business of making a profit & selling cars with Opel badges in Australia will give them an increased market share & more profit. Like SAAB before the GFC hit, they will sell Opel thru a separate dealer network & not compete head to head.

I think GM have figured the Euro badge snobbery syndrome. VW/Audi, BMW & M/Benz have no problem selling medium sized cars for $60,000 plus here, but put a Holden (or Ford) badge on the same car & you have trouble getting $40,000. I think selling Opel here can only be good; more dealerships means more Aussie jobs, even if the cars are imported.

Also the current Opels are very good cars., a lot better than 30-35 years ago.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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80569K Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, 9 September 2012 3:34:36 AM(UTC)
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Thank you Dr T and your voice of reason, I must remember not to comment when I'm having a bad day, lol.
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Dr Terry Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, 9 September 2012 4:04:07 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by johnperth

Of course the Holden Commodore was originally based on the opel Kommodore,

Not so, Holden invented the Commodore, it was Holden's idea to put the front end of an Opel Senator-A on an Opel Rekord-E. This was so our 6 & V8 engines could fit , the rack & pinion set-up was an Aussie idea also, the Opels had a steering box. This version of the Opel Commodore (yes it does have a 'C' , not a 'K') came later, they used the Holden recipe. Having said that, there were Opel Commodores made since the 60s, but the were very different cars.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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wbute Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, 9 September 2012 4:34:08 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by 80569K
The Europeans are a bit like the yank's, ie, if it wasn't their idea and didn't come their country it must be crap.

My brother in law tried to sell aluminium pick up trays in the States, they wouldn't touch them because they'd never heard of them, it wasn't their idea and they must be crap because we only use steel ones.

You are hard pressed to find any light commercial over there with a tray instead of pick up body full stop. They don't see the need for them or just havnt thought of the idea yet. You would need to be good at marketing to succeed with trays. Bit like trying to sell eat pies over there I suppose.
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80569K Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, 9 September 2012 9:08:28 PM(UTC)
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He was aiming at F250/350 & Dodge Laramie/Ram sized vehicles and at the time he saw a market for aluminium tray beds for the flatbed/stakebed versions, plenty of them used in rural areas, the perception was that 'aluminum' would be not as durable as steel and at the time fuel economy was not a consideration. This was about 15 years ago and he got flat no's everywhere he tried so he gave up and moved onto flogging powered patio roof panels.
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johnperth Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, 11 September 2012 11:33:32 PM(UTC)
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Terry you are right about the K i don't know where i got that from it was just in the memory banks.
but it is fact the first opels they brought out and the first commodores which were manufactured in germany and sent over here as test beds did break at the firewall, it was engineering necessity which drove the fitting of different fronts, as well as to fit the aussie engines. and I recall that there were reports in the press of production commodores having firewall failures, just a Falcons had front end failures in the XL. My uncle was a builder and used to pull this huge trailer with welders and cement mixers etc all around the bush , he used to have a statesman but went to a commodore. after about 2 or 3 years he could not shut the rear doors because the body had stretched.
Opel may be a lot better now but so are Holden.
If Holden had been allowed to export their cars they would have a far better product now as they would have been forced to upgrade to suit european standards, and at the same time maintain Australian expectations of a tough reliable car. I have yet to see a european that can outlast an Aussie designed and built car.
There is this snobbery, or is it cultural cringe, can't really decide. that Australians have about their own country and products. Americans or germans or italians don't have it, they are proud of what their country can achieve but australians will crawl over broken glass to get to a 'european' styled product, even if all the parts have to come from 20000 kilometres away and cost an arm and a leg. try buying tyres for a Renault fuego.
As for jobs, every opel/renault/mercedes/audi/fiat/ etc etc takes away an australian job in manufacturing and sales etc., they don't create jobs in Australia and they pay very little tax in australia apart from payroll taxes etc as the tax system allows them to write off their costs in australia and repatriate their profits so they really are of very little benefit in any way to australia. Apart from maybe prompting improvement in the aussies products and keeping them honest with pricing.
Particularly galling is the fact that these cars have massive government financial investment, while the australian govt does give some support to local industry it is nowhere near what the japanese or italian or french govts do.
Just try importing an Australian car into those countries and see how far you get, while they scream for protection from 'grey' imports into australia.
a level playing field is the last thing they want.
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Dr Terry Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, 12 September 2012 2:40:18 AM(UTC)
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I agree with what you've said 100%, but my point about being good for Aussie jobs was that selling Opels here is not loosing sales of locally produced cars. The extra dealers mean extra jobs & extra profit for GM.

The type of buyer that would purchase an Opel would most likely buy an Audi, M/Benz or Peugeot or similar if the Opel wasn't available, he is not a Commodore, Falcon, Camry buyer.

I own over 20 cars & they are all Aussie built Holdens !!

Dr Terry

P.S. The K in your memory probably came from the SA built Chev Kommando or the German Opel Rekord
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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castellan Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, 12 September 2012 2:49:21 AM(UTC)
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Good on Opel.
I am sick of all the Daewoo holdens we have now, as it makes holden a lower product.
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HJHeaven Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, 13 September 2012 5:01:05 AM(UTC)
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I agree with some of what you say John....

However, the people who are largely to blame for taking away Australian jobs are, quite frankly, Australians ....the old approach of the majority to have a strong good work ethic and a fair days pay for a fair days work is all but over.

We are too expensive.

To give you an example - the only thing that keeps mining going in WA (which has significantly contributed to Aust going well since the GFC) is the issue of sovereign risk and not our skills/experience. Many mining companies would leave us due to cost and go mining in Africa and Asia if they could be more confident that there billion dollar investments couldn't be lost overnight due to a change in government or a change in policy.

Our manufacturing industry (and many of our other industries) has been driven into the ground by greed and inflexibility (by Australian and international companies).

Subsidising doesn't solve that (you cant say...we're making a loss but a good product....how about you give us some more money to lose just to keep making our product). Something needs to give. We have to compete - and that is incredibly hard when we all want good wages and cheap products).

Protectionist policies might have a place to slow that down (and i for one can see some support for that as I would love to see Australian industry thrive) but ultimately it cant succeed ... if you look at those countries with those policies they are very expensive to live in and they simply aren't going so well at the moment.....there all in recession because of that type of financial mismanagement.

Whilst I dunno what the answer is, i do know that it isnt an easy problem to solve.

I suspect that, unfortunately, we will all end up with cars built in cheap countries (or brands owned by companies from those countries who can afford to buy out ailing brands) - until they get too expensive because they face the same issues as we are and we start buying them from a cheaper source.

Another example - have a look at cheap tshirts in big w...they used to be chinese made.....now they are from bangladesh....even the chinese are being undercut there.

just my opinion....




A GTS/4 is a monaro - so nuuur
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tranx Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, 13 September 2012 4:52:36 PM(UTC)
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The people to blmae for taking away Australian jobs, and the ones that keep bleating like sheep, are politicians. If the politicians didnt keep imposing extra on-costs on employers, like workers compensation premium (dependent on industry benchmark), leave loading, superannuation guarantee contribution (was 3% and now 9% and will soon increase), payroll tax (State varable average 5-6%) and at one stage the training guarantee levy, then employers could hire more staff.

Then unions demand higher wages to keep pace with inflation, or to line their own pockets, like the HSU. Then a guaranteed pay increase outlined in an award or EBA.

Then consumers want better made products with more features and colours cause they have seen something better overseas, either on their travels or on the Internet.

The simple solution is to start a business with no up front on-costs for a defined period of 2 years, wages frozen for 2 years for managers and workers, workers ability to purchase company stocks/shares at a discounted price, investment in research, training and development, no union input.

Australians make a bloody good product but there is no incentive anymore with globalisation. Its too late, we are already selling off our assets. Its only a matter of time before Holden closes production in Australia and sends it to China/India or another 3rd world country.

Edited by user Thursday, 13 September 2012 4:54:08 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Dr Terry Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, 13 September 2012 5:30:41 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by tranx
The people to blmae for taking away Australian jobs, and the ones that keep bleating like sheep, are politicians. If the politicians didnt keep imposing extra on-costs on employers, like workers compensation premium (dependent on industry benchmark), leave loading, superannuation guarantee contribution (was 3% and now 9% and will soon increase), payroll tax (State varable average 5-6%) and at one stage the training guarantee levy, then employers could hire more staff.

Then unions demand higher wages to keep pace with inflation, or to line their own pockets, like the HSU. Then a guaranteed pay increase outlined in an award or EBA.


Perfectly outlined.

Add to this the high dollar & it's a wonder any Aussie business is still operating.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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HGV8 Offline
#14 Posted : Friday, 14 September 2012 8:04:43 AM(UTC)
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I bought a new Belgium built Holden/opel V6 Vectra in 2001 and I must say although I love Australian built Holdens, the fit, finish and quality of the Vectra was superb which I can't say about the 1997 VT Commodore I traded in for it.
j.williams
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castellan Offline
#15 Posted : Sunday, 16 September 2012 6:25:21 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by tranx
The people to blmae for taking away Australian jobs, and the ones that keep bleating like sheep, are politicians. If the politicians didnt keep imposing extra on-costs on employers, like workers compensation premium (dependent on industry benchmark), leave loading, superannuation guarantee contribution (was 3% and now 9% and will soon increase), payroll tax (State varable average 5-6%) and at one stage the training guarantee levy, then employers could hire more staff.

Then unions demand higher wages to keep pace with inflation, or to line their own pockets, like the HSU. Then a guaranteed pay increase outlined in an award or EBA.

Then consumers want better made products with more features and colours cause they have seen something better overseas, either on their travels or on the Internet.

The simple solution is to start a business with no up front on-costs for a defined period of 2 years, wages frozen for 2 years for managers and workers, workers ability to purchase company stocks/shares at a discounted price, investment in research, training and development, no union input.

Australians make a bloody good product but there is no incentive anymore with globalisation. Its too late, we are already selling off our assets. Its only a matter of time before Holden closes production in Australia and sends it to China/India or another 3rd world country.
There is no solution. but if you pay people less they can't buy and then only buy cheap stuff from china. as my brother bought a great wall and said he had no hope other than to go this way.

As for my self i am in the building industry and have never liked aussie unions (they are backward low life to us contractors)but it looks like we have no hope anymore, as we will have to join a union to survive nowdays.
It's all New World Order stuff and Communism will win, as they are using Capitalism as a tool to shaft us. it's like they have woke up and seen how Hitler would of won with out a war. but the pommy capitalist released this and created WW2 because they had no hope of competing with such a system at all.

So our Leaders in aus treat us like 2ed class citizens.
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80569K Offline
#16 Posted : Monday, 17 September 2012 5:21:55 PM(UTC)
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Let me get this straight.

You blokes are saying we don't need unions and that they are the root cause of all our problems?

If we didn't have unions we would be just like China/India/Bangladesh/Africa or wherever else the people are exploited by "pommy capitalist" types of people who are realising Gina's $2 a day wet dream.

The trouble is that we are used to a consumer driven lifestyle we have lived beyond our means for a long time and borrowed money is too easy to get, you've only got to look at bank profits to see that. Look back at your grandparents and remember that they had a no frills lifestyle because if they didn't have the cash they didn't splash. I remember the day the Bankcard arrived in the mail, overnight the banks of this country sent every bank account holder a credit card, yep they hooked us on credit and have never looked back and the pollies didn't bat an eyelid.
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Dr Terry Offline
#17 Posted : Monday, 17 September 2012 5:43:32 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by 80569K
Let me get this straight.

You blokes are saying we don't need unions and that they are the root cause of all our problems?

If we didn't have unions we would be just like China/India/Bangladesh/Africa or wherever else the people are exploited by "pommy capitalist" types of people who are realising Gina's $2 a day wet dream.

Unions had their place in Australia in the 50s & 60s, from the 70s to the current day they ARE the root of many of our problems.

IMHO Gina was correct with her comments & said nothing about $2 a day.
quote:
Originally posted by 80569K
I remember the day the Bankcard arrived in the mail, overnight the banks of this country sent every bank account holder a credit card, yep they hooked us on credit and have never looked back and the pollies didn't bat an eyelid.

Whitlam was the instigator of Bankcard, not the banks.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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80569K Offline
#18 Posted : Monday, 17 September 2012 6:07:41 PM(UTC)
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We obviously have a differing view of the place of unions in our society, you as a businessman and me as a pleb.

Time will tell re Gina and what she and her cohort billionaires will do to in order to maintain or increase their share of the wealth of the 'Commonwealth'. It is also worth noting that China is inclined to manipulate the flow of resources in order to control the price.

The old Whitlam did it story again? http://www.bankcard.com.au/history.htm
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Dr Terry Offline
#19 Posted : Monday, 17 September 2012 7:11:25 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by 80569K
We obviously have a differing view of the place of unions in our society, you as a businessman and me as a pleb.

Yes, I am a businessman, but I am still a pleb in the great scheme of things. Many Australians wrongly believe that anyone who owns a business is rich. Far from it, there are many overpaid public servants & unionists who have much a better income/lifestyle than I do.
quote:
Originally posted by 80569K

The old Whitlam did it story again? http://www.bankcard.com.au/history.htm

Another journalist's skewed version of history. I was around back then, 4th year uni if my memory serves me.

The banks had been trying to get credit cards up & going since the 60s, but the conservatives didn't want to just 'open the floodgates'.

Labor governments have historically been 'in bed' with the banks & big business (& still are to this day, more than many realise) so Whitlam 'caved in' & allowed Bankcard to proceed.

Don't get me wrong, credit cards are an essential part of modernday life, but the way Whitlam allowed the banks open slather & let low income workers to live beyond their means is a problem that still exists today.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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80569K Offline
#20 Posted : Monday, 17 September 2012 8:20:16 PM(UTC)
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I am retired and had worked for the same company for 40 years and was a union member from the end of my apprenticeship until my retirement. Like most self funded retiree's I was severely burnt by the GFC and now have to keep my super money in a bank because I don't trust any of the super funds and in any case their returns are lower than bank interest, so I'd be further down the gurgler with the prospect of losing the lot. My allocated pension draws double my interest return, so I'm clearly paying dearly to maintain my pleb status. I don't have an ABN and I'm not yet 65 so I qualify for zilch from the government, none of Julia's carbon tax offset reaches my pocket. I rent because I'm a late life divorcee the only asset I have is what's left of my super and my money pit HK, lol.

I am cynical enough to think that MOST politicians are in bed with vested interest and as such can't be trusted. I blame Hawke and Keating for stuffing the economy in the name of progress, the dollar was deregulated as was the housing market all of which was good for business and government but ultimately not so good for the pleb, I blame Howard for allowing business to bulk offshore our manufacturing capability again good for business and not so good for the plebs.

In spite of unions being more or less castrated by FWA I still think they have a role to play and if people thought about it they would be more inclined to support them, the right wing of Australian politics (both parties) has done a tremendous job of destroying unions whether it's through legislation, FWA and/or negative media coverage. For instance just look how vested interest tore them to shreds in the media during the Qantas dispute last year, those communist union thug pilots created havoc with their industrial anarchy, yep, wearing red ties and making anti company PA announcements brought that company to it's knees.

Anyway, what would I know.
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