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Originally posted by commodorenut
You're missing the point Byron. We can discuss trim & model codes all day long, but we are only a small minority of the general population.
As I said "If it's spawned from a Commodore, then Joe Average sees it as a Commodore, and badging simply becomes a matter of symantecs."

It's these members of the general public, the majority, who actually don't care about luxury level codes, and who call anything that looks like a Commodore, a Commodore, including HSVs, Monaros, utes etc, that the marketing gurus target. They need to sell as many cars as possible to the entire population spread of Joe Averages - irrespective of their knowledge level about the model. The enthusiasts such as those of us on this board, are simply too few in number to support a local car industry on our own!

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I get what you are saying Mick, but it still doesn't make it correct (historically anyway)! The general population think many things that aren't correct - not their fault as in many cases they are told what to believe by government and media (and confused by GMH just as much!). But at the end of the day facts are facts!

A HQ-WB Statesman isn't a Holden, a Sunbird is not a Torana, nor is a VQ onwards Statesman a Commodore no matter what Joe Public thinks, GMH/Holden nevr intended any Statesman to be badged as a Holden or Commodore. I know the average person might call all sailboards "Windsurfers" or all 4x4's "Jeeps", but those are not remotely correct either.

I was thinking about this further last night. Slight prelude in red:
GMH introduced the T, U, V and W sized vehicle range in the 70's where:

T = small 4cyl, started at TA Torana and then became Gemini.
U = 4cyl larger car, started with 4cyl LH and became Sunbird then later the whole UC range.
V = 6 and 8 cylinder larger car, started with LH 6/V8 and then became the whole VB range.
W = full size vehicle, started at HQ and went into WB. Later became the Statesman again.

GMH documentation from the late 70's calls these cars as:

T = Gemini.
U = Sunbird (and Torana as an special vehicle package option on Sunbird). W = Holden and Statesman
But it calls the V sized cars as "Holden Commodore". So this hints that the name Commodore was actually meant to be viewed as something different altogether. So not a single name for the size/range of vehicle like: Gemini, Sunbird, Torana, Holden or Statesman - but Holden Commodore. Under each size of vehicle at the time you had the luxury level. Examples:

TD Gemini SL
UC Sunbird (UC are a bit of a wierd special case)
HZ Holden Premier
But it would appear that possibly the intention was that the VB was to be called for example the VB Holden Commodore SL. Basically that the Commodore was a subset of the Holden sized vehicles, even though in the early days there was no common body parts. Not sure if this is correct or not, but it is not without precedent. The Monaro name was applied as a subset of the Holden vehicle range. So you had a whole subset of vehicles that used "Monaro" in the name of the vehicle example a HQ Holden Premier for the sedan but HQ Holden Monaro LS for the coupe version (or to be plainer just call it HQ Holden Monaro Premier - a 4 x word name where the sedan gets 3).
Jump forward a decade or two, you get new vehicles built on the same platform like Ute, Statesman and Monaro many of which were a whole different series with no Commodore as such in the series: VG, VQ, VU, V2.

So in summary, my take on it is the Commodore name was always intended to be used on the sedan (and later wagon) V sized vehicle. The Calais and Statesman were pulled aside and not associated with the Commodore name (just like Statesman always was ie not a Holden). The ute, well I don't think it knows what it is! My VSIII S had a Commodore badge on it, but the later ones (VU on never do I think).

And Mick I agree that the marketing people do whatever they want, irrespective. Early examples are the Monaro name on 4 door HQ-HX, these should have been simply SS like the original was. And the LX SS should have always been a 2 door SL/R. It was the marketing people who did this, designers had them as SS sedan and SL/R hatch. Not sure how having Joe Public seeing all VB onwards as Commodores helps though! I won't buy anything with a Commodore name on it! Aside from the VSIII (which is and isn't a Commodore) i've only ever had VY, and VZ utes and the V2 CV8. If they were Commodores I wouldn't have bought any of them! I don't think the public wanted a Commodore Coupe either. I'm biased though - I didn't buy a HSV coupe as there was no Monaro name on it! Apart from all the ugly stuff all over the GTO I chose the CV8 as it was a Monaro (they were the same price at the time).

There is a 3rd way too Terry:

3. Use the right name!

I think if you call an LX SS a Sunbird you will probably upset the owner, and they'll correct you.

Same when calling a higher spec car like a V2/VZ Monaro or a WM Caprice a Commodore. Or a HSV GTO or Coupe4 etc. The owner will probably correct them.

Just my personal take anyway. I don't think anyone calls Fairlanes or LTD's Falcons? They are as closely related to a Falcon as a Statesman, Monaro or Crewman/tonner is to a Commodore!

To all intents and purposes I agree except I lean towards (for VU onwards) a ute and crewman/tonner being not a Commodore - to me they are the same deal as a Monaro ie same looking front and dash but basically different from there backwards. Calais, well it essentially is a Commodore as you say, except GMH/Holden make it clear in all literature that I know of it isn't! I guess it is the whole HQ-WB Statesman not being a Holden repeated for Calais not being a Commodore.

They had HZ Statesman, TD Gemini, UC Sunbird and UC Torana at the same time too, and these were just called HZ Statesman, TD Gemini and UC Sunbird/Torana. So I can't see why they couldn't just have had VB Commodore, yet they chose VB Holden Commodore. There must have been a significance to it, I don't think it was a random act. It wasn't just HZ either, WB was around until early 1985.

I think you have summarised the end result perfectly!
Although I think you missed what I was getting at, they could have had VB, VC, VH Commodore running side by side with Statesman, Holden, Torana and Gemini. Yet they chose Holden Commodore. It may well be what you say though! I'll ask Leo Pruneau when I speak to him next what they were thinking, it may be a simple explanation. He was responsible for the L, SL, SL/R and L, SL, SL/E etc luxury levels.

Byron, just becuase a piece of Holden paper work says Holden Commodore does that make it a Holden. I put all that down to people not knowing the difference between Holden and GMH, including those in the company who write all this stuff.

But the UC parts book is going to stuff you, it says UC Torana/Holden sunbird. So a Sunbird is a mini Holden and the Torana is a Torana.

I also have paper work that says Holden Torana (early HB) Holden Gemini (TX) Holden Camira (JB)

BTW if a Monaro CV8 is a Calais and not a Commodore then a Monaro CV6 is a Commodore, so one Monaro is and one Monaro is not.

Man this gets good. You could write a book on it.

Warren

Well here is my book on the designation of Commodore.

From 48 to HR the range was Holden and the company was GM-H. With the rlease of the HB Torana there is some confusion as there are Holden dealers that sell Holdens, Vauxhal dealers and Chev/Pontiac dealers. Some dealers are more than one. Torana means that Holden dealers are now selling the old Viva. Lines become blurred.

HK is released and Standard and Special become Belmont and Kingswood and the coding system changes. Are they still the Holden range? For me they are and the Torana range is just that.

When Monaro is released, it was to be Kingswood coupe and GTS coupe but they become Monaro and Monaro GTS coupe, later adding GTS 327. As pointed out the designation number for Kingswood is 3, so 369 is Kingswood sedan yet 337 is Monaro coupe. This happens all too often int he future, 1/269 is Belmont 1/260 is Holden cab chassis, 11/12 69 Premier sedan, 11/1237 Monaro LS coupe. When the new designations come along the same happens, D69 is SL/R, D77 SS hatch. Also in HJ M70/80 become Holden but M69 is still Belmont.

The only consistency here is that only one range will use designated luxury levels at one time. Ie A and B are used on LJ to LX Torana but also appear on RB Gemini, they are not made at the same time.

So for the Commodore, or V series, range they use K, L and X. So as I see it any vehicle that uses luxury levels K, L or X between 1978 and current are from the Commodore range. Utes, tonners, crewman use K, Monaro use K and X.

Now you could argue that the V2 is a different range, however the give away on this is the mechanical pack. From VK GM-H have used a three digit code, luxury level, engine, trans. If a V2 was not part of the commodore range then the following codes would be used:
114,224,226. Two luxury levels, 2 engines and the last number is the number of ratios in the trans. VQ statesman is a good example of NOT being part of the Commodore range, it uses 1 and 2 for luxury levels, and the 5 litre is a 1 as it is the only engine, so a caprice V8 would be a 214. In the VN/VP Commodore engine 1 is the V6 and engine 2 is the V8. For VR Statesman luxury levels are changed to 4 and 5 and the engines alligned with Commodore. Other ranges are also numbered independently, ie all have lowest luxury level 1 (A9K pack goes to 0), all have the first engine as 1 (some do not have a second option) a JE Camira with 214 would be an SL/X 2 litre 4 speed. RB Gemini would also be an SL/X base engine with 4 speed.

As GMH uses 134, 324 and 326 it shows that the Monaro was numbered in with the VX, where engine 1 = V6, 2 = V8 and 3 = supercharged 6. There is no 2XX as GM-H did not make a Berlina version. (Lumina s and SS coupe, Vauxhaul Monaro and GTO all use Commodore mechanical pack codes)

So as I see it all the numbering systems show that VG to VZ utes are Commodore, V2 and VZ Monaro are Commodore, VY Crewman and Tonners are all Commodore.

Adventurer and Cross 8 use M codes so go hard on this one.

Also not having a Commodore badge does not mean it not a Commodore. If so then an HQ 80837 and 81837 built in 1971/2 would not be a Monaro, as they only have GTS badges, no Monaro designation on the entire car.

Warren

PS HSV is seperate manufacturuer and uses different designations (with a few exceptions)

PSS Byron I also would not buy a Commodore so I have a Toyota Lexcen instead, much better car

Edited by user Saturday, 13 October 2012 8:06:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

All makes sense Warren, and well done. All I can say is with GMH stuff you can't always simply look at the coding used on VIN and model numbers to determine, you have to look at what the vehicle is named as well. A same but different situation: GMH intended HQ GTS sedan and HX-HZ Sandman to be seen as a totally different models but by the plates you'd never know without delving into TRIM lines and GVW etc. It is also clear that GMH intended Statesman (including HQ-WB and later) plus Calais to not be seen as part of the range that they were spawned from. Yes a HQ Statesman is a HQ, but it isn't a Holden, and a VR Statesman is a VR but it isn't a Commodore. Also HSV versions of most of the Commodores share the same model codings but they really are not Commodores although people do see them as that. I just noriced that HSV give all their cars new names like Maloo, Mantra, Clubsport etc yet some of the Statesmans and Caprices still are called that? ALl good, as you say it could go on forever!

PS: another reason why a Monaro cannot be a Commodore: I wouldn't own one if it was! And I wouldn't have owned the VY SS or the VZ Crewman either. I stuffed up on the VSIII ute as it had a Commodore badge on it!

So Warren if we go back to the series letters as identifiers, then WB is not connected to HZ at all, and a WB ute with bench seat made in 1980 is directly connected to a WM Statesman.
Basically, Holden have stuffed their identifying system up right from the 48-215 which did not even get an official series identity. They then forgot the alphabet from FJ onwards by naming the following cars FE and FC. They once again got dyslexia when using HD and followed it with HR. They then managed to get HQ after HG. Finishing the series with WB.
But we hit the 21st century and I see we now have a VE Commodore, VB was built in the 70's.
I think putting any logic into Holden series naming would be trying to make sense out of a non-logical system.
Not to mention that a HJ-WB ute is the confusing mixture of Coupe' and Utility.
I am pretty sure Holden might have appeared to be thinking years ahead in designing cars for the future but are actually just another company that survives day to day.

There was logic to the early Holden coding, someone here will tell you what it all means.

You are right Warren, those cars were special vehicle packages (hence why I said same but different) the point being even though they shared model codes with other vehicles (like the CV6 Monaro does with a VX or VY Commodore) it is meant to be seen as a totally different model altogether which they really are eg HQ GTS sedan is not meant to be viewed as an optioned up V8 Kingswood which the ID plates tell you. GMH even state this against Sandman in the HZ features manual. The others quoted are different in that they still are meant to be seen as the base vehicle optioned up eg XU1, L34, A9X, Deluxe etc. This includes HQ and HJ Sandman - they still carry the Belmont, Kingswood and HOLDEN badging. I think V2 series II CV6 and CV8 even get special vehicle package coding? Or am I dreaming this?

I think the original question has merit, get rid of the Commodore name. I have always hated it, and to me it has alway implied a lesser car (VB compared to HZ) although this has not always been the case. The modern VE is a fantastic car in V8 form and it is a far cry from the old VB. If it was me i'd just call them Holden again, ie Holden Omega, Holden Berlina, Holden SS etc.