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Originally posted by johnperth
suzuki only pulled out a couple of years ago not 20 or 30.
the wrangler had a rep of catching fire and leaking roof.
ford explorers have not enjoyed a great reputation here.
i am not saying the us can't built quality cars, just that in general they don't because they look only at the bottom line.

i do note most manufacturers, if not all, have built a dud in their time, and i love yank cars, but i am looking at the overall industry.
as for the unions i would point out the unions created the labor party so any claim that unions should not be involved in politics is a bit naive.
i could use the same reasoning to say business/industry should not be involved in politics as well. how does that sit with some?
i would go further and say that without the unions not one of you would have the standard of living you have now, employers are pushing for lower wages and conditions, without indusrtrial laws what do you think you be earning now?
remember a lot of top management wages are related to the general wages cost, a lower wage to the worker means a lower wage to management as relationships change.
to say the unions can't represent a variety of views is like saying your local member of parliament or shire councillor can't represent his electorate because there will be a variety of views in the electrorate.
in general i am a strong believer in unions even though some like the cfmeu have a reputation for thuggery but that could be fixed if government got serious. unions or the threat of them is the only thing that got decent working conditions. by threat i don't mean the thuggery or standover tactics i mean the fear of employers that workers would get organised. that is the only reason individual workplace agreements work to some extent.
i would go further and say that if you are not in a union you are not entitled to any improvement in wages or conditions the unions gain, why should you benefit from the investment by members in costly negotiations? i have no problem with concientious objectors but on the other hand if your beliefs won't allow you to be in a union it should also stop you accepting other people's hard fought for benefits, equal opportunity works both ways.

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I'm more of the belief that Unions shouldn't control the country, which is what effectively happens when you get Gillard's and Shorten's and Albanese's in power. Unions only represent less than 20% of the country, they should not be allowed to control everyone. I believe Unions belong at a lower level which is where they were traditionally, doing what they were designed for, not at the top of the heap. Don't have a problem with the Union movement, but as long as they do what they do and leave me alone i'm happy.

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Originally posted by johnperth
OK, so who do you think should be running the country?and who should choose them?
when the unions, as you would have it, did control the country australia sailed through the global financial crisis.
the liberals (who have always believed they have a divine right to rule) have been in power 6 months and so far have lost the motor industry, and who knows how many thousands of associated jobs, with that australia will lose the ability to have any serious engineering industry, putting the national security in danger, qantas is in trouble, spc is doubtful, and the govt is looking at ways to reduce wages and conditions and living standards for ordeinary people but no mention of the subsidies paid to the road transport industry, the tax regime for industry (bhp made over 12 billion that's $12,000,000,000 and paid $123 million in tax, if a private person earned that he would pay around $5 billion in tax. )and most of that 12 billion went overseas so was not much benefit to australia.
one of the reasons unions represent a lower portion of the community than they used to is the war waged on them by government and industry, workers are actively discouraged from joining unions and a most unpleasant aspect of the american industrial relations system is the refusal on some employers to allow their workers to exercise freedom of choice in whether to belong to a union or not, they refuse to employ a union member, and this is a growing practice in australia, which csn only result in resentment and loss of efficiency in the long run.
i would point out that the unions in germany have an integral part in government no matter which party is in power, and germany is not doing too badly, and their products have a good reputation. although personally i find they are overly complicated.

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Some of that sounds like a very distorted view of the world. Watch a lot of ABC TV, do we ??

Dr Terry

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Originally posted by johnperth
OK, so who do you think should be running the country?and who should choose them?
when the unions, as you would have it, did control the country australia sailed through the global financial crisis.
the liberals (who have always believed they have a divine right to rule) have been in power 6 months and so far have lost the motor industry, and who knows how many thousands of associated jobs, with that australia will lose the ability to have any serious engineering industry, putting the national security in danger, qantas is in trouble, spc is doubtful, and the govt is looking at ways to reduce wages and conditions and living standards for ordeinary people but no mention of the subsidies paid to the road transport industry, the tax regime for industry (bhp made over 12 billion that's $12,000,000,000 and paid $123 million in tax, if a private person earned that he would pay around $5 billion in tax. )and most of that 12 billion went overseas so was not much benefit to australia.
one of the reasons unions represent a lower portion of the community than they used to is the war waged on them by government and industry, workers are actively discouraged from joining unions and a most unpleasant aspect of the american industrial relations system is the refusal on some employers to allow their workers to exercise freedom of choice in whether to belong to a union or not, they refuse to employ a union member, and this is a growing practice in australia, which csn only result in resentment and loss of efficiency in the long run.
i would point out that the unions in germany have an integral part in government no matter which party is in power, and germany is not doing too badly, and their products have a good reputation. although personally i find they are overly complicated.

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Not Unions. Our government was created with a House of "Representatives" with oversight by a Senate. Representatives were meant to represent their electorate, note vote along party lines. Now it is either one or the other which I hate. AT LEAST the Senate should be free from party politics.

The Labor Government did not control Australia better during the gfc, they simply had a better platform to start with than most contries and then squandered it all to leave the country how it is now. Everything or most everything mentioned as being blamed on the current Government was created by the prior farcical excuse for a Goverment that we had before. Not blaming the Labor party solely for this, they had a minority situation and did whatever was asked of them, whilstever they had to to stay in power. Which is what it is all about today unfortunately.

If you were running a business that was a publicly listed Company and didn't take the steps that the current Federal Gorvernment is at least trying to do (ie cost cut and save) then you'd be strung and quartered by the owners and/or board or possibly by ASIC itself. The prior controllers of said business would probably already have been in trouble with ASIC already for fraud, misleading the shareholders, or other such corporate criminal acts.

Plus the bloody media hounds constantly print/show stories that suits their own agenda. They took aim at Gillard (whether you think she deserved it or not), and now they are trying to do the same to the Coalition but they won't play ball.

In the end I don't really support either. Don't like Unions trying to run the country. Also don't want corporate bullies like big food or big mining companies/multinationals running it either. Has to be a balance somewhere. I think our Federation forebears would be roliing in their graves if they saw how the country is run today.

have to agree on that one Mick. but the car industry was doomed the moment the button plan was implemented and hastened by the refusal to protect australian industry. ok it puts up the price of things but what is the cost going to be of the unemployment? taxpayers will have to wear that.
as for running the country remember the alp usually gets around 52% of the popular vote, the only reason it does not win every election is the weighting of votes.
in other words most voters did not want the lib/nats, and as only 20% OF THE WORKFORCE not voters are union members there must be something the alp is doing right. as for 'sheeples' i saw an experiment on tv not so long ago where 160 people were shown a big glass jar full of jellybeans and had to guess the quantity.
the guesses ranged from about 400 clearly ridiculous to about 4500 again clearly ridiculous,
the average guess taken over all 160 participants was about 1464, the actual number of jelly beans in the jar was counted and was 1468.
the conclusion was that if enough people take part the end result will be pretty right.
the numbers here are about right i am relying on my memory but most likely not exact.
my point is that 9 million voters are probably pretty right.
if result is not what someone wants, the answer is to try harder to do better next time.
democracry is not perfect but is is streets ahead of the next best thing. (to misquote someone)
the wonderful thing in australia is that we can debate politics and still go to the pub together.

so what is your main objection to unions? and how do you define 'crime'?

The Button plan has worked.......just a little better than intended

It's such a difficult debate. Some people can only see one side to the system. I am currently both an employee and a business owner. I get shafted by my employer as I am a contractor and I get shafted as a business owner because all I produce is sold at auction and all I buy is at market retail price.
Basically, you either get on with it or you blame someone else and get on with it anyway.

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Originally posted by wbute
If you do some research you will find why Westfarmers which started as a farmer cooperative in WA has survived. They diversified. Car manufacturers cry poor but the reality is they have no diversification of risk and have come to rely on our handouts. They are badly run companies.

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Wesfarmers has become the number one austalian retail business in terms of sales because of diversification (Toll, Officeworks, coles, Kmart, CSBP, Bunnings.) Wesfarmers also sold all the share in the agricultural arm by floating off Landmark and selling it to AWB, who have since lost money hand over fist.

$70K for a production line worker is too much. Should be $50K

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Originally posted by petaus
I work for my self and are worse off then than being employed, I believe its government fault all sides there no protection for jobs any more, all the government is interesting in is selling it out of the ground no better than a hooker selling her wares, we have too many car companies in this country and its not good for us, im sorry I believe in tariffs high ones to protect our jobs and way of life stuff other countries.
Everything is out of control people want better life higher paying jobs then go buy s*** made in china,im just as guilty as the next person and you cant blame people for wanting a better life nice house,car holidays,
Its a non stop revolving door prices go up houses,petrol,food and wages increases kick inn and the cycle continues.
I think the gov need to walk away from free trade agreement our minerals can stay in the ground for further generations for all I care, china can get from somewhere else.
Get rid of 3/4 off these cars companies want to sell here make a model here watch em pack up and leave good riddance
Where also its all gone wrong is with shares companies have to do better every year this year we made 300mil next year we have to make 400 mil.
just trying to find Australian grown food is now a challenge, mixed with local and imported ingrediants.

So how do we fix this before were all sitting under a tree playing a string guitar????
Rant over

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I don't like to hear bull like 300 mil 400 mil that's just stupid i want to hear the % profit and then one can look into other factors if it's good or not for the year. it could be only 2 % profit you know that they are really making.

We are on the road to a new world order, nations don't mean anything anymore down the track, just one govenment for all and political correctness for all. talk about smart. nazis !

2% profit increase you would be laughed out of town lol