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Monaro GTS owners vs Falcon GT owners
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I have noticed in this forum and the Falcon GT club forum an opposing attitude from the car owners.
The Falcon GT guys attitude is that of someone that owns one and wants the value to go up (for obvious reasons) and they just B.S. like crazy to talk up the value whereas the Monaro guys act like someone who doesn't own one and so wants the prices to be lower (so maybe they can buy one ? ) but generally on this forum the value of an 81837 just gets talked down.
Why ?
How come Monaro owners dont want the values to go up ?
I would like the value of my car to go up. Whats wrong with that ?
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Talking about how good they are on a forum isnt going to drive up the prices.
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This will be controversial, but they just aint worth the dollars people ask (and get) and with a planets worth of cool cars in the same price range I reckon people are mad.
Or, im just bitter about all the old cars i owned, drove and generally gave no f*** for that are now worth stupid money.
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I've never noticed that, but I rarely go to the 'dark side' of these forums.
One thing I notice though is that there are less topics & generally less postings on the Frod side of the forum.
Over all,I believe that there is just less interest generally in the
Frods. And that follows on from less 'back in the day' sales.
Holden used to wipe the floor with Frod back then.
Less sales back then = less survivors now. More 'exclusive'( in their dreams)
Maybe thats it. Dunno anyway, they're only Frods, so what does it matter? |
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There were a lot less desirable Fords made too. The performance product ceased with XA, and in Holden product it did too but the legacy continued in Torana which drags potential owners away from the collectable Holden cars. And their followers seem to disregard probably the first and probably most significant car ie the XR, whereas in Holden circles the first car (GTS327) is the most highly prized of them all. Of course there will always be buyers for the "showpony" cars from both manufacturers (HQ SS, 253/308 GTS's, LE, XB GT, XC Cobra) but in volume terms there is much more Holden and Torana stuff left today to own by both volume made and survival rates. |
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
There were a lot less desirable Fords made too. The performance product ceased with XA, and in Holden product it did too but the legacy continued in Torana which drags potential owners away from the collectable Holden cars. And their followers seem to disregard probably the first and probably most significant car ie the XR, whereas in Holden circles the first car (GTS327) is the most highly prized of them all. Of course there will always be buyers for the "showpony" cars from both manufacturers (HQ SS, 253/308 GTS's, LE, XB GT, XC Cobra) but in volume terms there is much more Holden and Torana stuff left today to own by both volume made and survival rates.
I agree that the Holden's value has been effected by the shear volume of cars out there vs the available Fords. But I don't agree that's Ford's 'performance product' ceased with the XA. OK the 4V heads & RPO83 marked the last of the Bathurst style bits, but the XB GT is far from a 'showpony'. It still had 290 bhp, with 11:1 closed chamber heads & a 4300 Autolite carby & no ADR27A emissions gear. It was by far the quickest Aussie Ford of the day & quicker than any of the opposition. The GT spec motor couldn't be optioned on the lesser Falcons, that was the 2V's job. The Cobra of course was a different kettle of fish, at was just a paint & trim job, nothing special mechanically, except for those 30 Bathurst's with a few minor items added. Dr Terry |
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I don't care what the price is as it's only what they are that is of interest to me.
They are all just old cars to me, but in there day what they were is how I look at it.
Sure I still like them and admire ones in good nick.
I like hardtop cars best, as well as style and class.
People who look to the money value as a prize don't cut it with me at all.
I look up to the GT Falcons as the ones I would like to drive in there day as well as the V8 GTS Monaro's.
The XB GT was a bit of a letdown as to the less power but I still like it.
The 5.0L GTS in HX-Z was gutless as from factory but if you knew what to do you could make it go well.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
There were a lot less desirable Fords made too. The performance product ceased with XA, and in Holden product it did too but the legacy continued in Torana which drags potential owners away from the collectable Holden cars. And their followers seem to disregard probably the first and probably most significant car ie the XR, whereas in Holden circles the first car (GTS327) is the most highly prized of them all. Of course there will always be buyers for the "showpony" cars from both manufacturers (HQ SS, 253/308 GTS's, LE, XB GT, XC Cobra) but in volume terms there is much more Holden and Torana stuff left today to own by both volume made and survival rates.
I agree that the Holden's value has been effected by the shear volume of cars out there vs the available Fords. But I don't agree that's Ford's 'performance product' ceased with the XA.
OK the 4V heads & RPO83 marked the last of the Bathurst style bits, but the XB GT is far from a 'showpony'. It still had 290 bhp, with 11:1 closed chamber heads & a 4300 Autolite carby & no ADR27A emissions gear. It was by far the quickest Aussie Ford of the day & quicker than any of the opposition. The GT spec motor couldn't be optioned on the lesser Falcons, that was the 2V's job.
The Cobra of course was a different kettle of fish, at was just a paint & trim job, nothing special mechanically, except for those 30 Bathurst's with a few minor items added.
Dr Terry
I guess if I include the HQ GTS350 Terry in the performance Holdens you'd have to include the XB GT too as you say. So i'd rather drop the HQ GTS350 out of the performance vehicles than include the XB GT. But it probably does deserve to sneak in there though. It still isn't as highly prized though as the XW-XA's though. To me the XB GT is a bit like a HJ GTS 5.0L manual, those cars were pretty quick, I think they were a match for the later HQ GTS350's, so I guess if you were to include a HQ GTS350 as a performance product the HJ GTS 5.0L does raise its hand too. Still not in the class of HK-HG GTS350 manual or GTHO/RPO83 though. |
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If you do a comparison between contemporaries, I'm not sure it's clear cut that Falcon GTs sell for more. Note that I said "sell for" as opposed to "are worth".
For example, XT GT seems to have been made in about the same quantity as HK GTS327, and they are from the same period in time. HK GTS327 seems to sell for at least twice as much as XT GT, which seems to be an relatively unloved orphan in the Ford camp.
In HT GTS350 and HG GTS350 the obvious parallels are XW GT and XY GT. The Fords don't seem to achieve the same prices now as they once did, and even seem to be a little below the 81837 prices. There were, from what I can gather, more GTs in XW and XY made than HT and HG 81837 manuals and while rarity may be one factor, the number of fake and "tribute" GTs must hurt the prices.
I believe Monaro prices have suffered historically from dilution of the brand with lesser versions being offered under the GTS badge, such as the 186S, 253, 307, and 308 engines. The Falcon GT didn't suffer this problem, and has remained as the pinnacle performance Ford, at least for a little while longer.
The GTHO models are in a class of their own. I can remember them being collectors items in the late 1970s, and older heads tell me that was almost the case from the day they were released.
The same was not the case for even the 81837 versions of HK/T/G.
I have a vested interest, but still can't see the day that the HK/T/G 81837 manual gets to GTHO money, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
As far as performance cars go, it was clear that Holden lost interest in the Monaro GTS, in 81837 form, from HG onwards. There was little real improvement in HG over HT (not convinced Byron!) and HQ 81837 reverted to the lesser version of the 350 to make way for Torana.
I'm with Dr Terry on this one, Ford XA GT and XB GT were still a serious effort.
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I guess the pinical of the Performance cars of the 60s and 70s was the XY GTHO, and the price demanded for one shows this. What is even more interesting is that an XY GT will normally sell for more than an XW GTHO. If you take away the XY and compare year to year the Ford/Holden/Chrysler products are about on par for price V performance. Some like the XT GT to HK GTS 327 are a bit of a miss match in Holden's favour, but overall have a close look. The A9X is also another one that holds a high value and was siad to be a collectors car right from the word go. But I also have newspaper articles about the XC Cobra, with people buying and then selling them for a profit. They held their high vcalue for a long time. The same happened with the recent Cobra release. There were so many "performnce" cars built during the 60s to now, that we often compare the performance car to the top of the line muscle car and then the lines get blurred. No one uses an XY GS in the same sentence as an XY GTHO, but we talk about the 186S GTS with the GTS 327. Just like the heading, Monaro GTS vs Falcon GT, the only Monaro GTS to be compared to a Falcon GT is the GTS 327/GTS350, all others should be compared to GS Falcons. Warren Edited by user Monday, 17 November 2014 8:33:11 AM(UTC)
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XR 289 GT, XT 302 GT, all the XW GT, XY GT, XA GT and a few 1973 XB GT are one class.
HK 327 GTS, HT 350, HG 350 are one class and the rival of the fords above.
XB GT and HQ GTS 350 = same class.
XC-D-E 5.8L and HX-Z = same class.
The ford GT-HO is in a class of it's own.
The Holden torana XU-1 is in a class of it's own.
The XB GT RPO83 is in a class of it's own, but it was just a jumble sale not a true breed.
The LH L34 torana is something like to the RPO83 but you got what you ordered.
The Cobra was not anymore a performance car then a XC 5.8L but just a show job something = to a A9X torana.
The VB and VC 5.0L could be in the same class as the HX-Z lot.
The VC Brock is on it's own sort of because it's gutless.
The VH HDT Group 3 and VK Group 3 and SS Group A is another class.
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Just to close the loop on this one, and get back to the initial point, I don't think you'll hear too many actual owners of 81837s bucketing those cars.
There are plenty of enthusiasts here too, who appreciate the cars for what they are; a bloody good drive.
And then, of course, there will be the begrudgers....................
As Edelbrock1 said, talk it up or talk it down, in the end it doesn't matter as the market will determine what people are willing to pay for what they want.
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quote:
Originally posted by castellan
XR 289 GT, XT 302 GT, all the XW GT, XY GT, XA GT and a few 1973 XB GT are one class.
HK 327 GTS, HT 350, HG 350 are one class and the rival of the fords above.
XB GT and HQ GTS 350 = same class.
XC-D-E 5.8L and HX-Z = same class.
The ford GT-HO is in a class of it's own.
The Holden torana XU-1 is in a class of it's own.
The XB GT RPO83 is in a class of it's own, but it was just a jumble sale not a true breed.
The LH L34 torana is something like to the RPO83 but you got what you ordered.
The Cobra was not anymore a performance car then a XC 5.8L but just a show job something = to a A9X torana.
The VB and VC 5.0L could be in the same class as the HX-Z lot.
The VC Brock is on it's own sort of because it's gutless.
The VH HDT Group 3 and VK Group 3 and SS Group A is another class.
Jeez, there's enough ammunition in that post to start WW III. Or are you just going fishing & using this as burleigh ? Dr Terry |
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quote:
Originally posted by castellan
The XB GT RPO83 is in a class of it's own, but it was just a jumble sale not a true breed.
The Cobra was not anymore a performance car then a XC 5.8L but just a show job something = to a A9X torana.
The RPO83 was an XA. Most Cobras had 302/4.9 engines The A9X was a bit more than a 'show job'. Dr Terry |
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Let the games commence....
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Just going fishing Ha ha.
But you are right XA RPO83 and it's a bit early to be put with the LH Torana L34 as the same thing, but sort of like as to.
I think there is ZG-H RPO83 as well in the Fairlane's I think, but she is not the same thing at all like the XA.
What was with the A9X worth mentioning performance wise that one bought off the floor.
302 XC Cobra O'hum yep I for got about them some how..
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....i'll never forget the A9X sedan that we had to cut and polish one day for the lady across the road from our old truck painting shop in Thomastown in about 1981...
...she complained about the overspray that was affecting the paint finish so we took it in, and it was a good chance to see what made these things tick...
...there really was nothing much at all to report about the car other than what you would expect on a road going version....the underside cut out wheel arches were interesting, as was the round headlights and 14" HQ wheels and UC back end...but all up it just idled like a normal V8 and nothing much jumped out and screamed at you...
...suffice to say the Mandarin Red(?) and black bonnet cut up very nicely and we always remarked on how she would drive all the way down the road in 1st gear all the way to the intersection about 500 metres away!
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I like the recent hunt by AMC, they are now talking about Wolves in Sheep's clothing and Sheep in Wolves clothing.
My person take on the whole thing is that the manufacturers offered "sports" models at a number of different levels. We all remember the top line "Muscle cars". For us these are the cars that were designed to compete at Bathurst in production racing.
The others were there as many others could not afford them or want that much performance. (remember a GTHO was the most expensive XW/XY/XA, including the Fairlanes)
So I put these cars in three classes, your outright "Bathurst special" your "almost Bathurst special" the "performance car" he performance cars are those with some hint of more sporty than the standard sedan/coupe
In some models they will offer a number of these, for example in the XY Falcon range, 1 XY GTHO, 2 XY GT, 3 XY GS. I would include XY GS with 351 engine in 2.
For Holden an exanple might be 1 LH SL/R5000 L34, 2 SL/R 50000, 3 SL/R and G Pack.
By the end of the 70s ARDC changed the rules as ADR27a does not go with motor sport, but specials were still made, ie XC Falcon, 1 Cobra 351M, 2 Cobra 351A, GXL 351, GS 351 3 Cobra 302, GS and GXL without 351. HZ, 2 GTS with 5.0, 3 GTS 4.2, Sandman
After this time you would have very few 1s but still plenty of 2s and 3s. They are still popular today, with VE SS in 2 and SV6 in 3.
Warren
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