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quote:
Originally posted by gm5735
Nope, they are not both dynamos. An alternator, in our world is, in the case of Bosch, a 3 phase star wound rotating machine with a controlled DC field which produces AC voltage, subsequently rectified to DC with a 6 pulse full wave diode bridge.
The only brushes used are for the passage of DC control current to the field via sliprings for voltage regulation. There is no commutator. The brushes do not carry the output current of the alternator.
In the case of Lucas, as above except that the stator winding is delta connected.
Generators, as loved by EH and earlier aficionados have a segmented commutator, brushes which carry full load current and produce DC voltage directly, without further rectification. They meet the definition of a dynamo.
My dynamo comment was a bit tongue in cheek, however my belief is that the DC device is called a dynamo, while the AC item is an alternator, however collectively. aren't they both generators ? From memory back when GM-H introduced the alternator as an option for the EH series, they labelled it as a "Diode-Rectified Generator". BTW, I threw caution to the wind & delved into the inconsistencies of the world of Wikipedia, to reference Mr T Edison.
Quote:"He developed many devices that greatly influenced life around the world, including the phonograph, the motion picture camera, and a long-lasting, practical electric light bulb." Dr Terry |
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I always get dumb looks when I tell non-electrical blokes at work that we want to hook up a diesel alternator. It is really only teasing them, as Dr Terry says the term "Generation" generally refers to the conversion of mechanical energy of some sort into Electrial energy. However having done my Apprenticeship and Traineeship at a Steelworks to me a Generator is a DC machine and an Alternator is an AC machine. When the electric machine is used as a motor the generator becomes a DC motor and the Alternator becomes and AC motor. |
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quote:
Originally posted by wbute
The most annoying two at the moment though are Barn instead of Shed and Styleside
Yes, I found the modern adoption of the term Styleside extremely annoying, however I don't have the same issue with barn/shed. To me a shed can be any size, but a barn is a larger style type of shed usually found on a farm. On that same topic, I was watching Foxtel this morning, a show called Chasing Classic Cars. They had a 1940 Ford Woodie wagon & they called it a Station Wagon. The guy asked why it was called a 'Station' wagon & the answer given was that it was used to pick up goods from the railway station. I've never heard that one before. I always thought it was derived from a larger farm e.g. a Sheep Station. What do you guys reckon ? Didn't the Yanks also call them Ranch Wagons ? Dr Terry |
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A barn is a shed used to house animals in during winter months in cold climates. Not a practice used in Australia. A large shed on a farm is either a machinery shed or a hay shed. Barn is a term that has crept in since shed makers have been selling "American Barn Style" sheds but now also copied by all and sundry since the term has taken off in the U.S. for cars pulled out of sheds. Won't be long and our railways will be called railroads. Edited by user Sunday, 23 August 2015 8:40:19 PM(UTC)
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"My dynamo comment was a bit tongue in cheek, however my belief is that the DC device is called a dynamo, while the AC item is an alternator, however collectively. aren't they both generators ?"
I'd agree with that Terry. The generator description in my post was in reference to what seems to be the norm to differentiate the two basic types of charging systems. "Generator" seems to be the standard automotive description for dynamos.
Byron, I've been fighting the "diesel alternator" fight for about 30 years with site electricians, consulting engineers, draughtsman and just about everyone else, with no chance of ever winning, but that will not stop me.
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I think the "Ranch Wagon" was a specific Ford model in the US, and not a generic term. Europe seems to call them estates - their version of a Ranch I suppose. We started with, I think, FE "Station Sedans", and this continued at least until HG. When did that term stop being used? Terry, never trust Wikipedia. I know you recollect the EH optional charging system release, but I hope you do not recollect this: 
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I usually just use it for a stir, dumb look on most Fitter's or Mech Engineer's faces when you tell them that the device is actually an alternator. I have come across a few Mech Engineers though that have surprised me when they knew exactly what I was talking about.
The terminology is skewed though, for example when you look at the 4 x quadrants of operation of a synchronous machine, two are described as motoring and two as generating. Trouble is DC today is rarely used and thus the understanding and even knowledge of its existence has all but gone except from a few key areas. I can remember learning hands on how a dynamic lowering hoist works - such an ingenious device. And the beautiful main drive motors at No.2 Bloom Mill - 4 odd MW each - you used to walk through a door into the brush chamber and actually walk inside it. The main shaft would have been probably near 1.5-2m diameter. |
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quote:
Originally posted by gm5735
Europe seems to call them estates - their version of a Ranch I suppose.
What then is a 'shooting brake' ?
quote:
Originally posted by gm5735
We started with, I think, FE "Station Sedans", and this continued at least until HG. When did that term stop being used?
That's not an easy one to answer. The last Holden sales brochure to use the term 'Station Sedan' was for the HK series. From HT onwards, the sales brochures used 'Wagon' (not Station Wagon). Then just to confuse the punters, the HQ workshop manual still uses 'Station Sedan'.
quote:
Originally posted by gm5735
Terry, never trust Wikipedia.
I know about that one, that's why I said:- "delved into the inconsistencies of the world of Wikipedia". Dr Terry |
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Terry, that HQ use of Station Sedan is probably due to it being penned way prior to the HT/HG Sales brochures being done. |
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True enough, the DC motor is impressive in its larger forms, but unfortunately the brush maintenance issues make it a problem. Exactly the reason automotive went to an AC charging solution - the load current is carried by the brushes and the commutator in a dynamo type generator. They also don't like high voltage DC very much either, due to commutator sparking issues.
Just to drag it back to cars, the AC motor has a lot to offer. The Tesla offering, for example, uses a 3 phase 4 pole induction motor, but unlike mains frequency motors, it is capable of around 16,000 shaft RPM. It's driven from a 4 quadrant inverter that outputs a maximum frequency high enough to allow a 16,000 RPM synchronous speed and a regeneration mode that allows the battery to be recharged using the kinetic energy of the vehicle. The inverter seems to be a variable voltage variable frequency type, with a maximum output frequency of 300-400 Hz. By running the motor at such a high frequency they get the shaft RPM up, and reduce the steel laminations in the motor to a minimum. Hence the compact motor size for the power output.
What I wonder is if anyone will be restoring one at home in 40 years time? With a shifter.
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Those Teslas are pretty impressive, they'd need more than 400Hz though to get 16000rpm from a 4 pole motor |
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True. As Terry says, that was version 1.0 Version 1.1 is to make it the 12,000rpm it should have been before clottish finger trouble got in the way. For a 4 pole 3 phase motor 12,000 RPM equals about 400Hz. Edited by user Monday, 24 August 2015 2:09:24 AM(UTC)
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Pretty much ripping though for a 4 pole motor! Are they a squirrel cage or a wound rotor? |
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Getting further and further from a HJ Sandman. Maybe we should start an EV thread, if anyone is interested.
Yes, its a squirrel cage rotor. The sport version goes to 14,000 RPM.
As a squirrel cage it's a fairly homogenous rotor with a small radius of gyration, so not the hardest thing in the world to spin that high compared to a reciprocating engine with a crankshaft with so much mass displaced a long way from the axis of rotation. (There was a guy in Melbourne many years ago with an all steel '55Chev and a 302 SBC that used to regularly use 10,500 RPM. I saw it at Calder, and it sounded like a deranged vacuum cleaner, but I digress...)
The Tesla motor is quite compact for 200kW thanks, presumably, to the high operating frequency. I suspect that is not a continuous rating, and that it would not be a good thing to run on a dyno, with no airflow over the motor casing. It's probably a race between the motor reaching its thermal limit and the battery running out of charge.
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quote:
Originally posted by gm5735
(There was a guy in Melbourne many years ago with an all steel '55Chev and a 302 SBC that used to regularly use 10,500 RPM. I saw it at Calder, and it sounded like a deranged vacuum cleaner, but I digress...)
IIRC that Chev was owned by Rob Cox, It was very quick & owned several national records. Dr Terry |
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I was there under sufferance, not really being into the 1/4 at that time, and I don't remember who owned it but I was impressed by it plucking the front wheels off the ground into 3rd and still running very low times. And the aforementioned vacuum cleaner noise.
I'm sure you'd be right about the owner.
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Fellas I have learnt a hell of a lot more than just twin vs quad headlight set ups through you. Entertaining, to say the least. Dr Terry and co "continue roll along......."
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Terry, I thought your shooting brake question was going to be easy - an outdated name for a station wagon - but I reckoned without Mercedes, who make a device which looks remarkably like a Holden Sportswagon, and is called "Shooting Brake" I just can't see the pukka pommy gentry filling it with gun racks, gun dogs, shotguns and a sweaty Tweed clad shooting party. Never underestimate the power of the Sales people to redefine things.
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Yes Geoff, I just Googled 'shooting brake' using the simple define function & it defines it as a dated British term for an estate car.
If you read the dreaded Wikipedia on the subject, it goes on to try to redefine it as a latter-day 'sports style' estate car.
It seems what began as a Pommy term is now more commonly used by the likes of BMW, M/Benz & Audi. Maybe the Germans really are now wearing Tweed jackets & Deerstalker hats.
There are many other car terms which are now outdated or wrongly used. The word 'coupe' comes to mind. LC/LJ Torana 2-door sedan owners often refer to their rides as a being coupes, which they are not ! Then there's that odd Rover P5 3.0 & 3.5 4-door Coupe. What do you reckon, a 4-door Coupe ?
My favourite Holden 'error' is the Berlina. AFAIK Berlina is Italian for a 'sedan' or a 'saloon', which makes a Berlina wagon a bit of a misnomer.
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Terry I believe the Germans did embrace the concept of the deerstalker.
Between 1914 and 1918 German shooting parties on holiday in France were seen sporting a lovely brass deerstalker with a spike on the top, presumably for impaling pheasants. Admittedly the Tweed was replaced by Feldgrau, but the hats were all the rage.
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