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castellan Offline
#1 Posted : Friday, 21 December 2018 9:06:18 AM(UTC)
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I was looking at the first Holden Torana's and working out what was about for Aussies in the times.

Now everyone knows that Holden's are the best, but were they.

A mate up the road started with this crap about how the Jap cars were just so much better than Aussie made cars, one he mentioned was the Toyota Crown ? and I was like what ! who would want to buy something like that ? gutless for a start, not to mention who buys such rubbish anyway.

Oh well what is it that they are comparing such to ? a Crown to a 202 Kingswood ? or is it a 202 Premier. how about a V8 253 or 308 Premier with Air plus ? f off with your Crown BS it's a rubbish car that does not come near what a Holden can be. would I drive a Crown and boast it's better than anything Holden has, no way !

Ok how about 4cyl Torana's well then yes I do believe that the Japs had it all over them.

I remember back in about 1978 a dude my dad knew that had a Datsun 260C and he was ranting about how good it was and a much better car than Aussie car, I think such is for wimps, who just don't get it that there are options of V8 around or is it that they would never buy a V8 because they are to tight or fear such. I just don't understand them.

I get people bagging Holden all the time that they were rubbish, one had a VN V6 chaff cutter and that was his last Holden, but hey they had a V8 option VN bro and you cant bag that, but hey he would never buy a V8, a mate let him drive his VY SS once and he would not take it over 4000rpm and mate said get right up it, but he would not. maybe when it comes to power such people get worried, they can not handle such it's to much for them, but then again I been with him in all his new cars and he has flogged them hard to show off how well all his 4 cyl went.

I had one dude ranting about how much better the Citron toad was in the 70's to every thing, well for one it's a slug mate and that's where it fails badly as a car, yes it rides well etc but it's a slug, so I have no intentions of ever having one, I once was going to buy one for a joke and go see a good mate and park it out front on his lawn and start spinning the Citron converted. but I thought best not buy such rubbish because most likely it would brake down and cost a fortune to fix the rubbish, all tho I would of like to see the look on my mates face seeing me with a Citron, that would be gold.

But anyway putting the HB and LC-J and TA Torana up against all the other 4 cyl at the time to be the worst of the car's I think. I never even look at such cars back in the day to bother working them out. a mate had a LC with the performance 1.2L option and I have been in a TA once I think, yes that's right he was flogging the guts out of it trying to cut loose on a dirt road, and the LC I was helping him straighten out the lower control arm that he had bent going into a pot hole.
HK1837 Online
#2 Posted : Friday, 21 December 2018 10:37:06 AM(UTC)
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I tend to agree with you on some fronts. Sure a 60's Holden may not have been as refined as some of the imported stuff, but the Holden was designed to operate on Australian roads at the time. Most other stuff fell apart, even the earlier Falcons until Ford Australia fixed subsequent designs. Any proper Holden (pre HQ) could easily live on the harsh Australian Roads of the 50's and 60's.

The earlier Toyota Crowns were built here, and were pretty robust cars. They had a full chassis and a competent straight 6cyl. Some even had GMH banjos in them! I do remember when it was time for my Parent's to replace the HQ wagon around 1981, we looked at VH Commodores and even XE Falcons. But nothing came close in Quality and driveability, fuel consumption etc. in the same approx. price bracket to a Japanese assembled Toyota Cressida. It was streets ahead of a VH SL/E with blue 6cyl and trimatic! Sure there was a 4.2L and 5.0L available but not wanted, and I doubt the blue 4.2 with trimatic, 2.78 diff and single exhaust would even have kept up with the OHC fuel injected 2.8L Cressida.

Those Datsun 240Z/260Z were good cars, if I remember correctly they were actually a Prince build, not Datsun/Nissan. Nissan kept the Prince factory after it purchased it, and built Skylines etc. out of that plant. The twin carb 240Z and 260Z would easily outrun any standard 6cyl Torana bar an XU1.

I agree with you, why would you buy a 6cyl Holden when you could have a V8 one, makes no sense. But the volume selling Holden until VE era was always the 6cyl so not everyone agreed. Since basically XE I always told people, if you want a 6cyl buy a Falcon. If you want a V8 buy a Holden.

I had a discussion with Chris Young (ex Young and Green Newcastle, one of the big GMH dealers). He said they were always in trouble in the later 60's and 70's as they didn't sell the required number of 4cyl cars. He said that they always told the GMH reps that the Hunter Valley was not a big 4cyl market, and the product was cr@p compared to Japanese and European imports so what else did they expect! It wasn't until the Gemini became more accepted that GMH had a decent 4cyl engine, the other stuff was sub-standard.

Edited by user Friday, 21 December 2018 2:39:07 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Dr Terry Offline
#3 Posted : Friday, 21 December 2018 1:59:34 PM(UTC)
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A lot of this is being seen thru 'Rose-Coloured' glasses.

The early Jap stuff was pretty ordinary. You must compare apples with apples, as they say.

The early Crowns in both 4-cyl & 6-cyl guise were quite gutless compared to the EH-HG Holdens they were selling against. Nissan Cedrics ?? Yeah right !! Both the Crown & Cedric had a good appetite for engine oil & blew smoke at an early age. It was commonplace to see many have their engines replaced with a Holden 6 !!

Mazda & Mitsubishi pre-1970 were almost non-existence except for a few minor models.

The 4-cyl HB was a good car by 1967 standards, but its main competition was from Cortina & Hunter, not the Japs. Within 5 years the 4-cyl Torana was a joke, mainly because it was still basically the same car as the 1967 version. As a matter of fact, GM-H was still flogging this car as the TA, until it was replaced by the Gemini in 1975 !!

The early small Toyotas pre-1200 Corolla (Tiara, 700, early Corona) were also a joke & any Datsun pre-1600 was also rubbish. Many sold on a perceived 'value for money' equation, where you got lots of extras (radio, heater etc.) which the Holden, Falcon & Valiant of the day didn't.

Buy the mid-70s the locals were struggling, wages had exploded, so the imports (which by now were of acceptable quality & durability) were selling well.

The main reason that GM-H shelved the GTR-X Torana was than the beancounters could foresee that it could not compete against the 'new wave' of Japanese sports cars, namely the Datsun 240Z.

The Mazda Rotaries pre-RX7 were also overrated. They were many Mazda wreckers in Sydney doing a roaring trade converting then to the equivalent piston engine version (e.g. R100 = 1200, RX2 - Capella, RX3 = 808 etc.) The Rotaries were good performers but the apex seals didn't last long in those days & they then had a huge appetite for engine oil.

We saw the same thing with Korean cars, in the late 80s & early 90s they were also a joke. Look at them today, I would probably purchase an i30 instead of a Corolla or Mazda.

What about the Chinese ? Their cars are a bit of a joke currently, let's look again in 10-15 years.

As I said 'Rose-Coloured' glasses make things very different in hindsight.

Dr Terry

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202tonner Offline
#4 Posted : Friday, 21 December 2018 2:35:41 PM(UTC)
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Longevity and size made Holdens the best IMO but I will admit to a very deep rose coloured tint on my glasses!

I see old Holdens (up to WB) driving around nearly every time I'm on the road. Not so many old Fords, and as for Jap or European stuff...never.

As for Aus vs other makes, as HK1837 says, the Aussie stuff just lasted. Even into the 80's you wouldn't find a 4 cyl European or Japanese car anywhere outside the city. I commented on the number of V8s in a country town to my country uncle once. He said the small stuff just doesn't last out here. These days you can repeatedly drive a Corolla back and forth between capital cities with no problems but back then it was a recipe for disaster.

And a lot of Aussies just can't easily get into Asian cars. I vividly remember a short trip in a Mazda 626 where my head was rubbing on the roof interior lining. Another Jap vehicle, I can't remember what it was, I had to thread one leg in at an awkward angle and then feed myself in in a certain way or I got stuck! Even modern cars have this problem. You need to bend your head right over and scrunch down to get your head into the car. This does not happen with a HG!

My 2c. Cheers.
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#5 Posted : Friday, 21 December 2018 2:50:47 PM(UTC)
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I remember reading that the 240Z at the time was very exotic, 5spd manual, dual carbs, front discs and low 16s quarters. But it was dearer than a GT-HO which meant it was heaps dearer than a GTS350. In those days if you wanted a robust, reasonably evonomical and affordable “sporty” car it would have been hard to go past a HT V8 GTS. Other than the diff that car would go just about anywhere on Aussie roads suitable for 2WD and last. A HT GTS optioned with M21 or M22 wouldn’t have been a bad thing either and had softer suspension than the V8 model.
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#6 Posted : Saturday, 22 December 2018 6:59:19 PM(UTC)
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I guess what one person wants from a car is different to someone else. My first wheels was a hand me down that was given to my parent by a fellow who owed them some money, mum drove it for a while and then when she got a new car just before my elder brother got his licence they decided to give it to him, then to me. It was a 1967 Rover. It would shit all over any Holden of the day, 4 wheels disc, IRS, buckets, clock, intermittent wipers, it was pretty good, but being a 2 litre would not pull the skin off a warm rice pudding. Do you want to go fast or stop and go around corners? But new it more expensive than a HR Premier with just about every option you could get.

My first real car was (yes you will all disown me) a TA Torana. Once again it was no ball tearer, but it was reasonably good motoring, cost less than the Rover to run and service. I was going to TAFE four nights a week and running around on the weekends, I saw that car go around the clock at least two times in 4 years, clocking up around 40,000 to 50,000km each year. I did replace the gearbox, diff and rebuilt the engine in those 4 years.

But that car went everywhere, to the snow full of passengers and gear, out west, up north, and it did have its faults but I think it was on about par with other 4 cylinder cars that my mates had. It was better for trips because it did have better head room and unless you came to really big hill, that little 1300 would have very little trouble. I got rid of it in 1987 and a few years ago I did a rego check and found it serviced until 1991.

I do not ever want to own another one, as even paying $500 for one I would rather buy a VN 6 cylinder for that money, as that would represent better motoring value. I sometimes have nightmares that I do purchase one and going to fix it up but have to hide it from the wife as she hates that little "shitbox". Then I wake up in a cold sweat and thank god the nightmare is over. I did see one the other day for sale, the guy is asking $20k for it, I will not be buying it, unless I win Lotto then you are all welcome to the BBQ.

That TA was to me what cars are to the vast majority, a form of transport that gets from A to B. Performance over the 1/4 mile is less important that fuel economy, reliability more important than top speed, comfort features more important than looks. Manufacturers have to find that balance.

The funny thing was when I purchased it I wanted something that would be inconspicuous and not get touched, and it is the only car that I have owned that someone stole. I got it back the next day 400m from the TAFE I was going to that night, would have happily given the buggers a lift.

They sold over 9000 of those little TA's in less than 2 years, but could only sell 13000 HQ coupes in 3 years. So which car was the best for the market at the time? (please do not all start to respond, I know what the answer will be on a car enthusiast web site)

Alternatively we become like the Ford guys who have one answer to every motoring question: THE PHASE THREE FALCON WAS THE WORLDS FASTEST FOUR DOOR PRODUCTION CAR.

There was even an article recently in AMC about HK Monaro advertising to women and on their web page there was some discussion about it when on came: BUT THEY ARE NOT AS GOOD AS A PHASE THREE.

Yes a V8 Torana maybe a better car than my humble 1300 TA Torana, but with the miles I was doing and in my third year of an apprenticeship there is no way I could afford to run it, or should I have just gone and purchased a Phase Three and be done with it.

Warren
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#7 Posted : Saturday, 22 December 2018 7:44:20 PM(UTC)
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I have owned at one time or another some of the Japanese car mentioned. A R100, woeful handing car but that 10A was silky smooth with a gearchange so nice and direct. The wheel track was its down fall. It literally fell on its roof on a tight, relatively slow bend. A 1985 single overhead cam 2.8 Cressida, refined, very soft comfortable handling car. Very sluggish but reliable. The best Jap car I had was a Datsun 1600. Went very well, stopped and handled great. Very controllable with it’s arse out.
But, all the larger Holden’s I’ve had over the years had that solid dependable feeling about them that the Japanese cars lacked. For some reason I always excepted the Holden’s shortcomings Whereis the shortcomings of the Jap cars irritated me. Maybe it was and is my sense of Aussie pride.

Edited by user Saturday, 22 December 2018 7:48:52 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#8 Posted : Saturday, 22 December 2018 7:48:51 PM(UTC)
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Warren, speaking of rose coloured glasses....you mentioned the PhaseIII. I think it is the biggest example of rose coloured glasses! They seem to forget that there was no real competition for the car like the GT-HO had to contend with, and a Holden 6 powered LJ Torana (a true cousin to that TA of yours) still beat them at Bathurst in 1972!
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307chev Offline
#9 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 5:45:14 AM(UTC)
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And would have been 2x Victories if PB haddent run out of gas!
GTHO is overated !
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#10 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 7:47:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 307chev Go to Quoted Post
And would have been 2x Victories if PB haddent run out of gas!
GTHO is overated !


I wouldn't exactly call a GT-HO over-rated. all three were built for a purpose with a brute of an engine. The magazine articles of the day were not complimentary of them as a road car. Sports Car World for example came to the conclusion about the XW GT-HO that they did not like the car and to them it was intended for one use purpose only - as a race car. They stated that you would be silly to buy one over a GT or a GTS350 unless you intended to race the car at Bathurst. I know that the PhaseIII had far better road manners than the previous two GT-HO's but it still was a brute of a car totally unsuited to the majority of Australian roads, drivers and available fuel. So in a comparison between what was available at the time and suited to Australian conditions the GT-HO's are today seen through rose coloured glasses. Compare the engine in one of those to the kittens in the GTS350's with their hydraulic cam (same cam as a 307 and the same distributor), road friendly Quadrajet and 10:1 compression ratio able to run on most Super fuels found across Australia and you have a winner. Same argument for the standard GT's. Sure if you had a choice today of a GT-HO or a GT you'd take the HO, but think about buying one to use as an everyday driver in 1969-71 and I bet most would choose the GT or walk over the road and buy a GTS350 for a lot less money.
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#11 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 8:29:42 AM(UTC)
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Had Evan Green not written his article, the Phase IV would be the one everyone talks about and the Phase III would just be a has been. (they did actually make 1 phase IV so technically the phase III was only the worlds fasted production 4 door for 1 year, then the phase IV until whatever came along later)

What would have been interesting is Bathurst 1972 more than likely would have been won by the V8 XU1, which would have had Ford asking how they could improve the Falcon GTHO programme to compete in 1973 against what would have probably been a more powerful 308 in the XU1. My bet is the GTHO programme would have been finished and the GT Cortina with 351 would have arrived. The Falcon GT would have gone the same way as the GTS Monaro.

The LH Torana would not have been able to compete with this Cortina GT and I have no idea how Holden would have done to compete. Maybe the TA would have continued with 4 cylinder and V8.

castellan Offline
#12 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 9:14:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: 307chev Go to Quoted Post
And would have been 2x Victories if PB haddent run out of gas!
GTHO is overated !


I wouldn't exactly call a GT-HO over-rated. all three were built for a purpose with a brute of an engine. The magazine articles of the day were not complimentary of them as a road car. Sports Car World for example came to the conclusion about the XW GT-HO that they did not like the car and to them it was intended for one use purpose only - as a race car. They stated that you would be silly to buy one over a GT or a GTS350 unless you intended to race the car at Bathurst. I know that the PhaseIII had far better road manners than the previous two GT-HO's but it still was a brute of a car totally unsuited to the majority of Australian roads, drivers and available fuel. So in a comparison between what was available at the time and suited to Australian conditions the GT-HO's are today seen through rose coloured glasses. Compare the engine in one of those to the kittens in the GTS350's with their hydraulic cam (same cam as a 307 and the same distributor), road friendly Quadrajet and 10:1 compression ratio able to run on most Super fuels found across Australia and you have a winner. Same argument for the standard GT's. Sure if you had a choice today of a GT-HO or a GT you'd take the HO, but think about buying one to use as an everyday driver in 1969-71 and I bet most would choose the GT or walk over the road and buy a GTS350 for a lot less money.


I thought that Australia back in the days of the Phase 2 XW had fuel octane ratting's of Standard 89 and Super 97 I do not remember anything other at the Stations pumps.
Looking at the compression of 11:1 for the Cleveland powered GT, they ran on 97 octane no problems, I run a bike alloy engine with 13:1 that recommends 95 octane.

I do not have a real handle on Australian fuel octane ratings back in the days of the 1950's FX Holden and on but judging from the compression ratios of all the grey motors I think that the octane rating is getting better as time goes by, so we see the octane ratings must of gone way up over most of Australia with the EH red motors by 1963 and the 1967 XR 289GT is 10:1 and Sep 1969 HT GTS350 10.25:1

It takes a real man or maybe a loon a tick to drive a XW GT-HO P2 or XY GT-HO especially back in the day with them tyres and roads, but the Windsor powered XW GT-HO was not the same type of beast as the Phase 2 or 3.
One problem was with the XY GT auto that it has the 2.75 ration diff, a 3.0 would of been much better, but with the tyres of the day they thought that the crappy rear end would come out on ya when going into 2ed gear.
From what I have driven of them Falcons and Holdens is that the HK-T-G rear leaf setup was much better behaved.
castellan Offline
#13 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 9:39:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Had Evan Green not written his article, the Phase IV would be the one everyone talks about and the Phase III would just be a has been. (they did actually make 1 phase IV so technically the phase III was only the worlds fasted production 4 door for 1 year, then the phase IV until whatever came along later)

What would have been interesting is Bathurst 1972 more than likely would have been won by the V8 XU1, which would have had Ford asking how they could improve the Falcon GTHO programme to compete in 1973 against what would have probably been a more powerful 308 in the XU1. My bet is the GTHO programme would have been finished and the GT Cortina with 351 would have arrived. The Falcon GT would have gone the same way as the GTS Monaro.

The LH Torana would not have been able to compete with this Cortina GT and I have no idea how Holden would have done to compete. Maybe the TA would have continued with 4 cylinder and V8.



As for marketing I don't think that a LJ V8 would of gone down well, it would of been a shit box on the road, hang on it was a shit box in any form, I like the look but I drove a 173 GTR once and that was the last time that I ever wanted to.

As for Falcon Phase 4 well they never came out, so they never truly existed as far as I am concerned, so there is no point in really talking about them to be honest.

The way I see it is there were cars one could buy for the street and you drove them on the street, Bathurst etc is all another ball game, but for me, what would I of liked to of had to drive ? yes I like all the Falcon GT's and all the Holden V8GTS as they all did appeal to me.

I did not even bother to look at the other cars much at all really, my wife has a Escort RS2000 and I never bothered to drive it, but for what it was they were a good little car and she liked dragging off Gemini's in it, as they would always want a go at the lights.
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#14 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 10:31:36 AM(UTC)
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I think that it's funny that any discussion about the 'best' cars in Australia (in that era) ends up being a Falcon vs Monaro vs Torana thing. This when the real completion in the marketplace was between the Aussies, Japanese & Euros

The other thing that irritates me is the quote that "the XY Falcon GT-HO Phase 3 was the fastest 4-door sedan in the world at at time".

I think that those who drove a Mercedes-Benz 300 SEL 6.3 (1968-72) might beg to differ.

The Benz had a top speed of 220 km/h (136.7 mph), 0-100 km/h in 6.6 sec and did the standing 1/4 in 14.2 sec.

There was also an AMG version with a 6.8 litre V8 which did 0-100 km/h in 4.2 sec & had a 265 km/h top speed. Maybe the AMG was their limited build "GT-HO" version.

Dr Terry
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castellan Offline
#15 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 11:07:01 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I tend to agree with you on some fronts. Sure a 60's Holden may not have been as refined as some of the imported stuff, but the Holden was designed to operate on Australian roads at the time. Most other stuff fell apart, even the earlier Falcons until Ford Australia fixed subsequent designs. Any proper Holden (pre HQ) could easily live on the harsh Australian Roads of the 50's and 60's.

The earlier Toyota Crowns were built here, and were pretty robust cars. They had a full chassis and a competent straight 6cyl. Some even had GMH banjos in them! I do remember when it was time for my Parent's to replace the HQ wagon around 1981, we looked at VH Commodores and even XE Falcons. But nothing came close in Quality and driveability, fuel consumption etc. in the same approx. price bracket to a Japanese assembled Toyota Cressida. It was streets ahead of a VH SL/E with blue 6cyl and trimatic! Sure there was a 4.2L and 5.0L available but not wanted, and I doubt the blue 4.2 with trimatic, 2.78 diff and single exhaust would even have kept up with the OHC fuel injected 2.8L Cressida.

Those Datsun 240Z/260Z were good cars, if I remember correctly they were actually a Prince build, not Datsun/Nissan. Nissan kept the Prince factory after it purchased it, and built Skylines etc. out of that plant. The twin carb 240Z and 260Z would easily outrun any standard 6cyl Torana bar an XU1.

I agree with you, why would you buy a 6cyl Holden when you could have a V8 one, makes no sense. But the volume selling Holden until VE era was always the 6cyl so not everyone agreed. Since basically XE I always told people, if you want a 6cyl buy a Falcon. If you want a V8 buy a Holden.

I had a discussion with Chris Young (ex Young and Green Newcastle, one of the big GMH dealers). He said they were always in trouble in the later 60's and 70's as they didn't sell the required number of 4cyl cars. He said that they always told the GMH reps that the Hunter Valley was not a big 4cyl market, and the product was cr@p compared to Japanese and European imports so what else did they expect! It wasn't until the Gemini became more accepted that GMH had a decent 4cyl engine, the other stuff was sub-standard.

The only Cressida that I could really look up to as being a better car than Holden and Fords was the 1988 on type with the 3.0L DOHC 24V. the earlier one was alright I suppose but the first type was crap that came out in 1977.

I think that the Falcon 6 became a good overall sort of performing thing with the alloy head against the Holden 6 cyl.
castellan Offline
#16 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 11:11:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
I think that it's funny that any discussion about the 'best' cars in Australia (in that era) ends up being a Falcon vs Monaro vs Torana thing. This when the real completion in the marketplace was between the Aussies, Japanese & Euros

The other thing that irritates me is the quote that "the XY Falcon GT-HO Phase 3 was the fastest 4-door sedan in the world at at time".

I think that those who drove a Mercedes-Benz 300 SEL 6.3 (1968-72) might beg to differ.

The Benz had a top speed of 220 km/h (136.7 mph), 0-100 km/h in 6.6 sec and did the standing 1/4 in 14.2 sec.

There was also an AMG version with a 6.8 litre V8 which did 0-100 km/h in 4.2 sec & had a 265 km/h top speed. Maybe the AMG was their limited build "GT-HO" version.

Dr Terry


Oh yes the Merc's like that if you had the money.
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#17 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 11:41:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I tend to agree with you on some fronts. Sure a 60's Holden may not have been as refined as some of the imported stuff, but the Holden was designed to operate on Australian roads at the time. Most other stuff fell apart, even the earlier Falcons until Ford Australia fixed subsequent designs. Any proper Holden (pre HQ) could easily live on the harsh Australian Roads of the 50's and 60's.

The earlier Toyota Crowns were built here, and were pretty robust cars. They had a full chassis and a competent straight 6cyl. Some even had GMH banjos in them! I do remember when it was time for my Parent's to replace the HQ wagon around 1981, we looked at VH Commodores and even XE Falcons. But nothing came close in Quality and driveability, fuel consumption etc. in the same approx. price bracket to a Japanese assembled Toyota Cressida. It was streets ahead of a VH SL/E with blue 6cyl and trimatic! Sure there was a 4.2L and 5.0L available but not wanted, and I doubt the blue 4.2 with trimatic, 2.78 diff and single exhaust would even have kept up with the OHC fuel injected 2.8L Cressida.

Those Datsun 240Z/260Z were good cars, if I remember correctly they were actually a Prince build, not Datsun/Nissan. Nissan kept the Prince factory after it purchased it, and built Skylines etc. out of that plant. The twin carb 240Z and 260Z would easily outrun any standard 6cyl Torana bar an XU1.

I agree with you, why would you buy a 6cyl Holden when you could have a V8 one, makes no sense. But the volume selling Holden until VE era was always the 6cyl so not everyone agreed. Since basically XE I always told people, if you want a 6cyl buy a Falcon. If you want a V8 buy a Holden.

I had a discussion with Chris Young (ex Young and Green Newcastle, one of the big GMH dealers). He said they were always in trouble in the later 60's and 70's as they didn't sell the required number of 4cyl cars. He said that they always told the GMH reps that the Hunter Valley was not a big 4cyl market, and the product was cr@p compared to Japanese and European imports so what else did they expect! It wasn't until the Gemini became more accepted that GMH had a decent 4cyl engine, the other stuff was sub-standard.

The only Cressida that I could really look up to as being a better car than Holden and Fords was the 1988 on type with the 3.0L DOHC 24V. the earlier one was alright I suppose but the first type was crap that came out in 1977.

I think that the Falcon 6 became a good overall sort of performing thing with the alloy head against the Holden 6 cyl.


Go and drive a 1981 Cressida if you can find one. And drive a VH SL/E 3.3 auto. It is chalk and cheese.
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Warren Turnbull Offline
#18 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 1:01:27 PM(UTC)
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I agree Terry, racing a car on the track does not make the best car, but the whole thing comes back to specials built for racing.

But how many of those cars did they sell and how easy was it to buy one, i.e. availability and price.

Sales is what counts to a manufacturer, how many people want to buy them. It is amazing when you look at sales per month of both Ford and Holden product, there are a few surprises in there as to what people were prepared to put their hands in their pocket and buy. These are the cars that hit the market.

But race on Sunday sell on Monday BS has been going around for so long that everyone believes it. Race on Sunday was about the winning at any cost. If you think its about race on Sunday sell on Monday what the hell happened in 1972, XY racing yet XA out for 7 months. remember when someone says, "at least you could buy the cars that raced in the old days" remind them that you could not buy the Ford product in October 1972.

So many good cars have been made that get very little recognition.

The phase IV may not have been released but they did make one and it was faster than the phase III, it is a production car and has to be recognised in automotive history. (the three they call prototypes are built after the production car so are not prototypes but race prepared GTs).

If you look at a lot of the vision being put up on utuibe of this era, you se lots of small cars, VWs, Morris, Datsun, Toyota, Hillmans etc. It was an increasing market that Holden/Ford and Chrysler got heavily involved with, some successfully and others not. They were marketed at a variety of buyers, but mainly women at first, as the second car. Then at the youth with cars like the Cortina GT, it was a complicated and diverse market

There are some statistic of the day on how many of each model were registered in each state. I have recorded the Holden stuff but it has it all. If you get these books, there is a set in the national library, you can then get the real figures. They also break into commercial, sedan and wagon, different engine sizes including V8, etc.
HK1837 Online
#19 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 5:17:40 PM(UTC)
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Back to the original post, I guess it does come down to the volume sellers when you compare cars. For HK-HJ that will probably be the high compression 186 or 202 with 3spd manual and HX-HZ a 202 auto. Not sure which flies for Ford (maybe the 4.1 3spd early on and 4.2 auto later) but for Chrysler probably the 245 and 3spd manual. I was and still am part of the small group of buyers who'd buy the biggest and most powerful engine. My grandfather was too, he had a ZC? Fairlane when he died, whichever had the 351 Windsor. My Uncle had a 350 HQ Statesman and when he changed over in the early 80's he bought a Fairlane as he could get a 351, the Caprice 5.0L wasn't big enough for him. I'm the same, always bought the 5.0L cars, HQ Deville, HJ Deville, HJ Premiers etc for everyday drivers or if not those that had been converted to SBC engines. I had an FJ40 with a 327 and an MQ ute with a SBC in it. My newer stuff were SS utes, Cross8 and right now I have the bigger/better engined 4.0L V6 Hilux. Its replacement will be a big V8 like the Dodge Ram or maybe Nissan Titan if we get it and it will be fitted with a supercharger, no way I'd choose the pissant little diesels that come in most of these. If I do buy a 200 series Landcruiser to convert to a dual cab it'll be either a 4.6L Landcruiser V8 petrol or the 5.7L Lexus LX570, either one fitted with a supercharger. If I ever buy a nice survivor 6cyl HK-HZ it'll quickly have the whole driveline put on a pallet and upgraded to a proper engine, box and diff. So I guess I'm not a fair sounding board in the end!

Edited by user Sunday, 23 December 2018 5:20:32 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
307chev Offline
#20 Posted : Sunday, 23 December 2018 7:26:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Back to the original post, I guess it does come down to the volume sellers when you compare cars. For HK-HJ that will probably be the high compression 186 or 202 with 3spd manual and HX-HZ a 202 auto. Not sure which flies for Ford (maybe the 4.1 3spd early on and 4.2 auto later) but for Chrysler probably the 245 and 3spd manual. I was and still am part of the small group of buyers who'd buy the biggest and most powerful engine. My grandfather was too, he had a ZC? Fairlane when he died, whichever had the 351 Windsor. My Uncle had a 350 HQ Statesman and when he changed over in the early 80's he bought a Fairlane as he could get a 351, the Caprice 5.0L wasn't big enough for him. I'm the same, always bought the 5.0L cars, HQ Deville, HJ Deville, HJ Premiers etc for everyday drivers or if not those that had been converted to SBC engines. I had an FJ40 with a 327 and an MQ ute with a SBC in it. My newer stuff were SS utes, Cross8 and right now I have the bigger/better engined 4.0L V6 Hilux. Its replacement will be a big V8 like the Dodge Ram or maybe Nissan Titan if we get it and it will be fitted with a supercharger, no way I'd choose the pissant little diesels that come in most of these. If I do buy a 200 series Landcruiser to convert to a dual cab it'll be either a 4.6L Landcruiser V8 petrol or the 5.7L Lexus LX570, either one fitted with a supercharger. If I ever buy a nice survivor 6cyl HK-HZ it'll quickly have the whole driveline put on a pallet and upgraded to a proper engine, box and diff. So I guess I'm not a fair sounding board in the end!

My daily is an ls2 clubsport, May as well use the remaining earths dwindling resources for something worthwhile!
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