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HK1837 Offline
#101 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 3:39:15 PM(UTC)
HK1837

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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Your are correct it's not a GTS dash.

But I was just thinking I wonder what was the best 6cyl motor in the 60's to 70's Holden red or fords log types and X flow or the Valiant slant 6 or Hemi or even maybe Zephyr 6 or even others like 4x4 Datsun or sedan OHC, 4x4 Toyota or sedan OHC, or the land rover 6 with it's wavy piston top and intake valve in the head and exhaust valve in the block.

Was a 1961 XK 144 a better engine than a 1961 grey lets say, could anyone say that the grey is better in any way to the modern 144 ? and then you had the option of the big 170 power house in the last few months of the XK what a rocket ship that must of been in the day. not to mention that they became the Super Pursuit 170 in the XL one could go down and hose off any Holden and be the big man in the Pub boasting for anyone to bring it out. haha this could of been serious back in the days.


There is only one winner in that debate, hands down it is the Australian Hemi. Even the 265 Hemi as a standard engine in the late 70's was as good as or if not a superior engine to a GMH 5.0L or Ford 5.0L let alone the 6's. If you read road tests of the day when say they compare HZ 5.0L Sandman to XC 5.0L Sundowner to CL 4.3L Drifter (all 4spd) they wanted the Holden's chassis with the Ford's interior but wanted the Drifter's engine. Motor in January 1978 tested all three in the above spec, the 4.3L CL van was basically the same in 1/4 mile, top speed and was actually quicker than the other two in 0-80, 0-100 and 0-120kmh. And it averaged 12.8L/100kM compared to the HZ's 15.7 and the XC's 22.6. Both the XC and the CL were 2.92 rear axles and the HZ a 3.08.

Sure there might be some exotic 6's like Jaguar, Mercedes, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Porche or BMW that could argue the above, but put one of them from the 60's or 70's up against a VH E49 and see which one wins!
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Dr Terry Offline
#102 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 3:56:00 PM(UTC)
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It all depends on what you parameters are in defining something as the "best".

If you want outright long term durability you can't beat the Holden & Ford 6-cyls of the late 60s & early 70s. My money would be on HT/G 186 & XY/A/B 250 log motors. If you didn't get 750,000 MILES !! from one of these (in taxi use) you were doing something wrong.

True, a lot of later Ford & Holden engines will go near this, but not without a lot more $$ spent on maintenance. The old units were so cheap to service & tune.

The Hemi was a poor 3rd place in this regard, the main issues being timing chains & valve stem seals.

If efficiency & power to weight is your criteria, that's a different story.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Wednesday, 9 January 2019 10:01:09 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling

If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
castellan Offline
#103 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 9:47:46 AM(UTC)
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I would say that the 2 barrel 245 and 265 Hemi 6 were good performing but they did do valve stem seals for sure.

No one could bag the Holden red 6 for being durability apart from the 202 would do big end bearings due to bad quality rod bolts stretching, the longer stroke must and ratio must tax the bolts more so. and valves getting burnt out is a problem with some, they must be running too lean I would think, what I have seen of such is people who pussy foot the car who had this problem and never seen anyone burn out a valve who drove one hard.
The smaller red engines were not as harsh when you rev them out like some 186 and 202 were, some were not all that bad but some were shocking, a mate had a VC 3.3L and it was the most harsh holden 6 I have ever come across, but many blue 3.3L were better than the reds that I came across in std form, I believe the rods were so mixed matched being the main problem, when you look at them you would see big lumps and small lumps on the big ends and small ends all over the place, but you did not see that crap on the Ford 6 as they were all the same.

Some of the Holden 6 ate the cam timing gear, my sisters HK 186 went at about 60,000miles and it was owned by a real old bloke who only plodded about in it. but my 202 had 98,000miles up on it when I sold it and I flogged the piss and pick handles out of that and never had I problem with the engine but blew gearbox diff and axle.

Ford 6 would blow pistons cracking around the top and some crack the Log on the heads part and I dropped the head off a valve on my 3.3L XC.

My Dads VG ute 245 2 barrel blew the mains straight out and the crank came out on to the road with the gearbox and all not long after he soled it, the dude was flat out on the highway when it went, so what I have heard is that some of the early blocks had air bubbles in the block casting and that was sorted out in the months ahead when casting to eliminate that problem.

A mates brother had a old 6 cyl Toyota 4X4 and it had a bubble in the top of the bore the size of a jelly bean cut in half like looking thing with no problem and the big ends bolt and nut like you have on your wheel bearings that you run a split pin through them both.

The 6 CYL Land rover with the huge wave lump toped piston, that must of added much weighed, but it was a slow rev engine, when I seen that it only had a intake valve in the head I had never seen or heard of that ever before, back in 1978 it was.

I never heard people bagging the old 6 CYL Toyota and Datsun 4X4 back in the days, but I would stir the possum, I would say that the Holden Overlander would be the way to go, than that old bustard arse crap and they would spit the dummy directly. it was a good way to get them fired up. haha good times. and sure they have their advantages in some ways but if you really want to take on the harsh going you can't beat the old WW2 Jeep, they will go anywhere with ease that your jap 4x4 will be a real hard slog and out with the winch, as the old Jeep will stop beside you and take off easy as piss.
ExportHolden Offline
#104 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 10:43:42 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: justgm Go to Quoted Post
just checked WB April 1980 parts catalogue and it show the Statesman drivetrain as L31-M38-GU4(3.08) and Perf-GV4(3.36) Thanks Mark.


Are you sure it was GU4 and not G70 (2.60:1)?

The Oct 83 parts manual has it as G70 as std and GV4 as a perf option. I have seen only one GV4 Statesman DeVille , a Series 1 also with the vinyl seat option. Every other WB Statesman plate I've seen has diff ratio as G70.

When planning Project 1938 (WB series), Holden had intended for the Statesman to have the 2.60:1 ratio diff right from the first Product Planning Submission - Car in Oct 1975. Sometime after that they had decided on the 3.08:1 diff but then on the Sept 24, 1979 PPS-C the typed 3.08:1 ratio for DeVille and Caprice was crossed out and 2.60:1 pencilled in, with the note at the bottom of the page saying, " 2.60:1 REPLACES 3.08:1 AXLE RATIO AS BASE -- EFF ASAP". (There was also a change in Cab Chassis diff ratio from 4.44:1 to 3.55:1.)

That was very late in the piece (pre-pilot build commenced in Aug and pilot build cars were on the line in Elizabeth in Dec 79) so possibly they didn't catch the change for the Apr '80 parts manual.
justgm Offline
#105 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 12:42:49 PM(UTC)
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Hi ExportHolden , That's what the parts book said ..3.08. just checked August 1980 brochure ( AB26) and it lists 2.60 standard on Caprice and statesman ?? . 1 tonner in the 1980 parts book is 4.44-M15, 4.44-M22, 3.55-M40 . In the April 1980 brochure (AD100420 )standard driveline 3 speed and 4.44 diff. You could be correct about the parts book as I found looking at the codes for production plants it says NZ will be stamped on the plate ….. GMNZ did not even fit those type of plates here ( why would they use them when it says Made In Australia ). Thanks Mark.
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HK1837 Offline
#106 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 1:28:20 PM(UTC)
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If the records ever turn up for the pilot or restricted production WB's it may be that early cars were built different to volume production. Like there were some 253 auto HT's built up front, but the option was removed during restricted production.
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ExportHolden Offline
#107 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 2:20:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
If the records ever turn up for the pilot or restricted production WB's it may be that early cars were built different to volume production. Like there were some 253 auto HT's built up front, but the option was removed during restricted production.


The WB Kingswood (A9K) sedan, Kingswood SL sdn & wgn, Premier sedan were removed late. Oct 9, 1979 seems to be the first revision cancelling these models from the programme. I wonder how many pre-production models were made. There's the Kingswood SL in Birdwood, I don't think any others survive.

BTW Sandman was also intended for the WB series but I don't have a record of when that was cancelled.



HK1837 Offline
#108 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 2:53:25 PM(UTC)
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I think you'll find it was cancelled prior to HZ Sandman cancellation. Ute was earlier in 1979, van I think was later in the year. They kept the XU4, XY7 and BO6 versions going though.

I hope to catch the Curator at Birdwood in February and get him to lift the bonnet of that WA/WB Kingswood and see if it has a PSN on it so I can date it. I'll be able to tell immediately if it is a HJ or a HX/HZ body but it would be nice to know when it was put together. Plus a PSN will lead me to a gap in the Pagewood records, unless the body was done at Pagewood and then assembled at one of the other plants it might give up the PSN's of the examples.

Edited by user Wednesday, 9 January 2019 2:56:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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